Episode 208

A recent Ligonier survey of evangelicalism finds nearly 50% of processing Christians do not deem it important to share their faith with the lost. Nearly 50%! That is a topic for another day, but for the slight majority that do see the need to witness to others, many thousands feel they are hindered. The reasons may include a lack of equipping, a fear of not knowing what to say, or maybe even the fear of man. In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we sit down with recurring guest Edward Thal, whose fascinating life is a testament to God’s love and mercy, to discuss how we as believers can become effective soulwinners. Brother Thal reminds us, among other things, that a well-rehearsed script is not the effective way to win souls, but a wholehearted surrender to God is. Join us on this episode as he discusses these and more. May the Lord ignite in our hearts the same desire for the salvation of lost souls that the Bible clearly declares He has (1 Tim 2:4-6).

[Bro. Thal]

In fact, I’ve told many of my friends if people took their driving tests the way they approached Soulwinning, none of us would be driving cars. We would all be walking because we don’t take it seriously enough.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 208 of the Removing Barriers podcasts, and in this episode, we will be sitting down with Brother Edward Thal to discuss how to become a competent soulwinner.

Brother Thal, you’re here again. Welcome back.

[Bro. Thal]

Thank you. It’s nice to be back.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Always have fun when you’re here.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things, removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net/donate. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Alright, brother Thal, maybe I should have said we always learned something when you’re here. Because that’s definitely true as well. But let’s talk about the competent soulwinner.

What does the competent Soul winner look like?

[Bro. Thal]

At root. In fact, it’s the root of everything in the Christian life is somebody who has a clear view of the cross. Somebody who doesn’t go through the motions of being a Christian but actually loves Jesus Christ. You know, Jesus was so adamant when he was here about the need for his followers to be so with us. The first words he spoke. When he was calling, his disciples were follow me and I will make you fishers of men. The last words he spoke as he was ascending into heaven was go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That’s the heartbeat of Jesus. That’s why he came to this earth. That’s why he died for. Us. So that people can be saved and that their lives transformed. And unless a Christian has that same heartbeat, you’re not going to have any motivation for being a soul. And so. That’s kind of a commentary on the state of the church today that people are, I mean, good people.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Are somewhat lukewarm in their walk with pride because they just don’t take that next. Step to get close enough to him to be motivated by him to get out and share their faith. So when you say what does it take to be a competent? So when what is 1 look like? It’s just getting close to Jesus. It’s as simple as that.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[MCG]

Yeah, I should have asked this earlier, brother, but give us the history. Maybe a brief summary, because we did have your testimony on our podcast. Think it was episode 84 somewhere around there. OK, for the British. How long have you been the sole winner? How long you’ve been saved and kind of bring us up to this point?

[Bro. Thal]

I was saved in 1970, which is an awfully long time ago, and I had a.

[MCG]

Oh wow.

[Bro. Thal]

A really deep encounter with Christ. I was an atheist at the time, and the reason I was an atheist was looking at people who claim to know God or who were Christians and seeing absolutely no evidence in their lives for God. I came to the conclusion that the whole thing was a hoax, just, you know.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Kind of Sunday. Go to meeting kind of thing just to make yourself feel good. But there wasn’t anything behind it. There wasn’t anything above at all. No depth to it. And so by the time I left high school, I was a total cynic about God and religion. And then it took an encounter with a Jewish convert to Christ. Who witnessed to me? By the way, I totally rejected everything he said. But one thing that stuck with me was this man really was enthusiastic about Jesus. He knew Jesus as his best friend. It wasn’t something phony. He wasn’t going through the motions. He was actually excited to be a Christian. He wasn’t a raving lunatic. He just, you know, it’s like. I guess a young man falling in love with a young lady and deciding to marry her and he can’t wait to go and tell all his friends. That was how this man was to me about Jesus.

[MCG]

Wow.

[Bro. Thal]

And I didn’t believe what he told me, that I was impressed by his passion.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And I decided in that moment I better find out whether there’s anything to this, because if I’m on the wrong side of the equation. I’m not going to end up in a good place, and that led me in turn to a real encounter with the living God, and they changed everything for me. So I became a very passionate Christian, went to Bible College, started the church, preached passionately, did St. preaching, all kinds of things to try and win. People to Christ. And then gradually over the years. It became harder and harder. The reason was I was doing real hard to be a Christian doing it all my own energy and my own strengths and not really understanding. They didn’t teach me at Bible College what it meant to actually walk in the spirit. Right. So I just wore myself out. I reached the point of exhaustion and cynicism. Return because I looked in the mirror one day and said, you know, you’re becoming exactly the kind of person you used to this. Times and Sunday go to meeting Christian. It’s all on the surface and inside there’s nothing.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

And so I turned my back on Christ’s not so much I didn’t reject Christ, but I rejected the whole Christian thing. And for the next 12 years, I lived like a Pagan, increasingly unhappy, increasingly materially, very prosperous, but spiritually not at all prosperous.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Until I reached the point of exhaustion, ized by this time living in the United States. And decided at any cost I had to get back together with God. And at that moment two young ladies knocked on my door one night.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And when I answered the door, the first lady said we just start visiting from our church and we’d like to know if you die tonight. Are you sure about where you will go? And I couldn’t believe it. I’ve just been praying. Lord, please give me some direction. What do I do next? And you have these two ladies on my doorstep are asking me if I now I think to heaven. Well, they were also winning and Long story short, I started attending their church and the pastor there was adamant about sowing.

[MCG]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

I mean, if you didn’t go out and witness and lead at least one person to Christ every week, you were a worthless Christian and he would tell you go out again and do it again. You know, one of those slots slinging, pooper pounding, single shaking, window rattling. Preachers, bless God. And he was like a Sergeant major. That’s what I needed.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Bro. Thal]

And so I got my walk with God back on. OK. And because I then. I guess at that point of life, you know, I met Christ the first time under remarkable circumstances the second time. Met Christ and rededicated my life to him under remarkable circumstances. I kind of got the idea that this soul winning thing is pretty important. For me.

[MCG]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

And so I guess that motivated me to get started and to really get serious about it.

[MCG]

MHM.

[Bro. Thal]

And just in anticipation of more questions on the subject, what it takes to be a competent Christian, I pretty soon learned that I wasn’t very good at it.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

It’s not easy to go knock on a stranger’s door and try and share your face and then look at you like you’re just crawled out from under a rock somewhere and tell you to get lost or to challenge you. What about this? What about that? Can you believe this? No, it’s not true. Because, I mean, there’s dozens of arguments for why one shouldn’t believe in God, and I knew them all because I’d lived them all.

[MCG]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

So I determined if I’m ever going to do this properly, I need to be serious about it. You know, if you go get your drivers license. And you don’t study for the test, you’re gonna fail.

[Jay]

MHM.

[Bro. Thal]

In fact, I’ve told many of my friends if people took their driving tests the way they approached Soulwinning, none of us would be driving cars would all be walking because we don’t take it seriously. Yes. So I decided to take it seriously and invested a lot of time and attention in developing answers to all the objections to all the arguments to all the things that people would throw at me and then developing also for myself a clear presentation of the gospel.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And then practicing it. I used to stand in front of a mirror and practice how I was going to talk to people about Jesus. That’s how seriously I took it. And in that process, it became easier and more enjoyable. I wasn’t caught by surprise anymore, didn’t feel like I was a failure. The next time a door was slammed in my face, I knew the answer to the challenge that they were going to give me. I knew how to actually lead someone to the point of decision, and it became a highly satisfying. Enjoy your. So fruitful ministry and unless you take that approach, if you’re 1/2 hearted about it and it’s kind of a part time, it’s something I have to do once a week or once a month or once a year or once a decade. You’re never gonna enjoy it and you’re never going to be any good at it. So they’re in a nutshell.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[MCG]

Alright.

[Jay]

But why would we need to become competent soul winners? Do you think because the Bible does say that? That if we hold our tongues, the rocks will cry out. I imagine we can apply that to soul winning as well. If we don’t go out, soul winning the Lord will send someone else to win. People. Nowadays there are a lot of ministries that people can access very easily online via YouTube and other social platforming methods. There are other people in the church.

[Bro. Thal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jay]

Doing it and pastors, you know, they go out. Why do we need to be competent soul winners? Why is it so important? Besides, we don’t want to bother people on a Saturday morning, right? Why would we need to be competent soul winners?

[Bro. Thal]

Sure. Yeah. You know that last point you make, we don’t want to bother people. If someone’s about to. Dive off a Cliff into a pool of lava. If you had one ounce of compassion in you, you’d probably want to reach out and grab their hand and stop them. And that’s the answer of why bother people? Well, because they don’t know the danger they are in. They might think you’re a jerk and they might curse you for it, but at least you made the effort to try and save them.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

So that answers that as to what was the first part of your question.

[Jay]

The basic gist of it is why is it important to even become? Yeah, a competence element.

[Bro. Thal]

Oh yes, OK. The other answer to that is I think profoundly. Important the one who benefits the most from Soul winning is the sole winner.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Listen, it’s so important to God and the Holy Spirit. If you actually will take the trouble to go and try and share your faith. Guess who gets excited and delighted your father in heaven’s I mean, you’re doing something that Jesus died for you to do.

[MCG]

And then.

[Bro. Thal]

And so you go out and share your faith. And if you just get your attention off yourself for a moment and enjoy the moment and call on the Lord to help you, you’ll discover that God is present. He’s delighted, he’ll bless you, and it totally enriches your walk with God. The ones who benefit the most of the Soul 1 is not tell that again. And again to people, if you’ll just make the effort. And do this as an act of worship. Do it as something you need to do because you want to be obedient to your savior. You will get more blessings even than the people you witnessed to. Although the greatest blessing anyone can ever encounter is Jesus himself. So if someone gets saved through your soul winning, it’s a blessing for him. And for you or for her and for you.

[MCG]

Umm, how do we go about becoming a competent for winner? Do we take our course? Do we go on YouTube and research it? Do we just go to the Bible? Do we have classes in our church? How do we go about becoming that? Become knowledgeable to the point where we are not scared, I guess.

[Bro. Thal]

The short answer taken seriously. If you’re going to be half hearted about it, you’re not going to invest the time and the trouble to actually learn anything and you’re going to fail the driving test and it’s gonna happen every time. The other part of the answer be sure that you’re part of a good church where they actually teach this stuff where they’ve got material, where they’ve got somebody who’s leading their sole winning program. That’s my job at church.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

I’m a member of. I need our sole winning program. Because I enjoy it. Right? Like you’re telling you about my time this morning with a young man who’s just joined our church and he’s passionate about solving. But he happens to be a medical Doctor Who is very busy, and he doesn’t have time. So remaking special time to do it because he wants to do it.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Bro. Thal]

But he’s able to do it because he’s in a church where that is something that’s valued. So be sure you’re in the right church and then just make the effort. You know, what does it take to be a Christian? You asked me, what does it take to be a competent soulwinner? I’ve just developed a new track, which we’re going to start using. And the headline is, what does it take to be a Christian? And the answer is, choose God, obey God.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And everything else in your life is just details. Umm, think about that. If you want to be a Christian number one, choose God, choose Jesus Christ as your savior, #2. Obey him. Do what he tells you. And you’ll understand that everything else in your life, no matter what it is you’re doing and no matter how wonderful it’s whatever it is you’re doing and spending your time on, it’s just details filling in those two points choose God and obey God, and right at the top of God’s duelist is be a soul winner. Share your faith.

[MCG]

Right. Yep. Yeah.

[Bro. Thal]

Because nobody gets saved by. Accident.

[Jay]

So choose God, obey God. But wouldn’t that require some sort of a mindset and maybe habits to go along with it so that all of these things fall into place? So what are some of the habits and mindsets that we should have in order to bring this about? Or is it the work of the spirit in us? How does that work?

[Bro. Thal]

Yeah, it’s not automatically the work of the spirit in, you know, although the Holy Spirit in each true believer is constantly active, trying to nudge us in the right direction. But ultimately we have to make decisions. Every child of God has to make constant decisions. Do I go this way or that? We always at the crossroads. The Bible is a story about man at the crossroads. We’re always at that intersection. Where am I going to choose to do this or choose to do that? And whether you’re a child or an adult, you know? The importance of right choices and the consequences of wrong choices. All of us know that. But because and lest I sound too harsh in my criticism of Christians who don’t, so when the fact is when you commit to soulwinning, you attract spiritual warfare. The ones who are the most hated by Satan, or those who are going to try and save people from. Hell, in obedience to the Great Commission.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

So you will attract opposition from the enemy of our souls and you will give you all kinds of excuses and obstacles to make you not be a soul winner. Well, if you’re walking with God, you’re going to just press on anyway because you want to obey God. You’ve chosen him. You want to obey him so.

[MCG]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

It’s a constant, daily, almost litany of making the right choices, one step at a time. And willing yourself to do it in obedience. The Holy Spirit. There’s no, you know, it’s not like you can go and buy a special pill and you take it, and suddenly the power. You’re a soul in it. You gotta work at it.

[MCG]

Right. Yeah, definitely. Besides working on it, it seems to me based on the fact that so many Christians don’t actually share their fate, what are some of those barriers that you believe are preventing them from becoming competent at soul winning? Is it just a matter of saying or is a matter of the struggle to get there?

[Bro. Thal]

It’s probably a mixture of both. I think that the most prominent feature is it’s the struggle. Nobody likes to be. It’s like, well, you’re going to experience a lot of dislike when you go so wrong because there are people who don’t want to know anything about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, and they are often feel affronted when a Christian walks up to them and starts talking about their eternal soul. So that’s just a given.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

You’re going to experience that if you don’t have that in. Unction that sense of God’s presence, if you don’t do this as something not to boost yourself but to indicate your obedience for your savior and your love for your savior, and you’re going to try it once or twice and give up because it’s not easy. But you know the principle for anything that’s not. Easy is when you do it and achieve it, the rewards are always enormous. It’s like studying to be like my young friend this morning he studied to be a doctor. He invested 15 years of his life. Hmm. To become a doctor.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Now he wants to make the same investment to become a competent sole winner. Well, he’s already proved he’s able to really grind away at something and do it successfully. And he understands that principle. So he wants to learn as much as he can about solving. It takes that sort of mindset. If you’re a Sunday, go to meeting Christian and half hearted generally. About serving Christ, you’re not going to invest the time or the efforts in the project and you know the first time if you do. You are and you have a bad experience. Well, that seals it. I knew it wasn’t going to work. So yeah, I tried. It didn’t work. So I’m out of here. Yeah, I’m not going to be a bad person. I still go to church three times a week and read my Bible and say my prayers and some of the best people I know fall into that category and they never go so well.

[MCG]

Yep. Yeah. So let’s unpack that a little bit and let’s sit here a little bit on this because someone listening to what you just said could we bought and say, hey, what I am hearing is that it takes a certain personality trait or it takes a certain. Discipline that only some components might have to really become a competent soul winner because you mentioned your doctor friend, and because he’s already disciplined in one area, he can easily become disciplined in another area. Dave Ramsey said it all the time. If you can become disciplined in your finances. You can become disciplined in any other area of your life. And knowing you and knowing other people that are competent, so winners, they seem to have that. Multi trade, more like let’s go and get it done. Personality like a a bull in a China shop. Personality. Is that what it takes or if that’s just an excuse for Christians who have a more reserved, introspective personality, then maybe yours.

[Bro. Thal]

A very simple answer to that, and it’s Jesus gave us the answer when he called his first disciples. What did he say to them? Follow me and I will make you fishers of men. He’s going to do the work. If we’ll just follow him.

[MCG]

Mm-hmm. Right.

[Bro. Thal]

When he was leaving this earth and gave his last command as he was going away for the last time before the 2nd coming, which I believe is going to happen soon. By the way, if you’re not so when are you better get started soon.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Bro. Thal]

But he said go into all the world and preach the gospel. He didn’t say you guys who are go getters, you guys have got a certain type of personalities. You guys aren’t telling. Go out and preach the gospel. No. He gave a blanket statement to all his followers. Go into all the world. So I don’t think God. Demarcates there are certain ones you’re going to do this, and certain ones who aren’t, and it’s OK for those who aren’t because, well, they just don’t have the right personally. Let’s say you don’t have the right personality. Let’s say that you’re a weak, timid person.

[MCG]

MHM.

[Bro. Thal]

Well, you should be doubly incentivized to pray and get close to God so that you can use his strength. I just tell you what Paul said. It’s not like it’s this is mysterious, Paul said. When I am weak, then I am strong. Why? Because the power of Christ will rest upon me. If you recognize your weakness and you go to the fountain.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Bro. Thal]

And asked for his strength. There’s a promise there that will strengthen you. Just make the effort. Choose God, obey. The guard and all the other little details fall into place.

[MCG]

Alright, one more, one more on that. So what would you say then to this one, the church as the body or the Christian life as war fear? There’s some people who are on the front line and there’s some people who are in the office that support the people on the frontline. Would some people be able to guess, for lack of a better word? Take the box of soul winning or evangelism, whatever you want to call it, because they’re supporting the person on the frontline.

[Bro. Thal]

You know, you hear that all the time when it comes to missionaries. Mm-hmm. That churches and individuals will support missionaries, and therefore they are so winners in the sense that they are supporting others who are so winners.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Either by their prayers or their finances. And yes, I suppose that is a valid point. Up to a point, but it still doesn’t get around the fact that Jesus said follow me. Who? Well, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, the next words apply to you and I will make you fishers of men. The implication there is actually quite a disturbing one, because if you’re not a Fisher of men, if you’re not. They committed so. Winner. Well, then, clearly you’re not being a follower of Christ doesn’t mean you’re not saved. You’re just not following him. And that then raises the other problem. When Jesus spoke on another occasion about those who follow him, do you recall what he.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Said. If you want to be my disciple, take up your cross and follow me.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Cross the instrument of death, death to self. If you want to be a follower of Christ, and if you want to as a follower of Christ, become a soul winner, you’ve gotta realize that you’re gonna have to die a little to yourself your own.

[MCG]

Mm-hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Prejudices your own weaknesses, your own embarrassment, your own sense of incompetence. Whatever it is that prevents you, you’re going to have to overcome that. Not in your own strength, but by becoming a follower of Christ. Take up your cross and follow him. This isn’t an easy message. It’s not something that is designed to make you feel good about yourself.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

The whole point of the Christian life he’s died himself and in the process of dying to yourself, you’re gonna start caring more for others than you do for yourself.

[MCG]

Right.

[Jay]

So we have this emphasis. We have the heart behind it. What resources and perhaps whether it’s a book or website or maybe it’s a sermon that you recommend that will help people to begin taking those steps to become incompetent soul winners. What resources do you recommend?

[Bro. Thal]

I’ve tended to develop my own resources. If you asked me to and this is gonna sound strange, I can’t think at the moment of a single manual book that kind of does it all. But again, if you’re part of a good church. You will find that they have a method that they use and they’ll probably have a description of it in our church we have developed a set of seven videos available to our people, videos that I’ve made that give them the steps to becoming a solo one. We all also have some literature that goes with that. I know that other soul winning churches do exactly the same thing. If you’re in a church where no one stole. Well, you’ve got 2 choices. Find a better church or go online and there’s a multitude of resources. If you just Google personal evangelism in a massive stuff that comes up, it’s not hard.

[MCG]

Yeah, I know a lot of folks recommend their living water or the Ray Comfort method kind of stuff, but we’ll talk about that after the break. But I think those are a lot of resources that might come up when folks kind of Googled those things. And I know they’re one or two books out there, I know. His name? Think it’s Charles. Person has a book out there called the Soul winner, which seems to be pretty good as well. So yeah, as you said, there’s lots of resources out there, but we’ll go into a break and we’ll come at the end and we continue talking about how to become a competent soul winner. You’re listening to the room of embarrassed podcast. We’re sitting down, we brother Edward Thal and we’re talking about how to become a competent soul.

[Bro. Thal]

Yeah. OK.

[MCG]

Yeah, we’ll be right back.

[Jay]

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[MCG]

Alright, so brother Thal, we’re talking about how to become a competent soul winner and let’s start looking at maybe the effectiveness of the competent soul winner. So what are some of those effective means that you will recommend? Because there’s so many out there and so many people may choose them based upon their. Again question I asked. Or their personality. What are some of the effective means that you have used and you have seen work, maybe in different areas, different personality types, stuff like?

[Bro. Thal]

Keep it simple, so I wouldn’t recommend that people go to extraordinary lengths to learn a special system or a special motivation. You know all the motivation you need really is right there in the Bible. So I don’t have a library of books that tell me how to be a good soul, and it’s just something I’ve.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Bro. Thal]

Developed personally over the years. There is of course, I think at the heart of also winning that I’ve ever been associated with. And learned from is what we call the Romans Rd.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

The Romans Rd. is a wonderfully simple and powerful outline that any soul winner can learn. In 1/2 an hour and quote from the Bible, and that outline will serve useful and powerful in every circumstance. I can think of. I’ve used it in 100 different ways. It’s part of every track I’ve ever used, and anyone who’s ever tried sharing their faith will be familiar with the Romans Rd. And the first step is to acknowledge that you’re a Sinner. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 323. If you can’t understand that you’re not perfect, and God’s standard is perfection, well then you’re not going to want to go any further in wanting to be saved. So confess the fact that you’re not perfect.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

All have sinned. That’s all have sinned. Then the next step, the entire gospel is contained in one little verse. One of the most powerful verses in the whole Bible, Romans 623. The wages of sin is death.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

That’s step #2 understand. If you confess, you’re a Sinner. The next thing that applies to you is the wages of sin is death. You’re going to have to pay for your sins yourself and the death that it talks of. There is spiritual death, separation from God, eternity. You know people. One of the objections is well. Surely a loving God wouldn’t send anyone to hell, and the answer is you’re right.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

A loving God sends nobody to hell. Everyone in hell today and what makes her even worse is the fact that everyone there is there because they know they chose to be there. If you reject God, keep him out of your life every day. I don’t want God in my life. When you die one day, he’s going to give you what you wanted. You will not have him in your life.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Forever.

[MCG]

Mm-hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And that means you’re going to go to a place where God is. Present. And that place is not something you’re going to enjoy, because there’s nothing of God there. There’s nothing of God’s goodness there. There’s no light, no love, no goodness, no kindness, no mercy, no lack of pain. There’s nothing there that you like, but you’ve chosen it.

[Jay]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

So that first part of Romans 623 is fantastically powerful. The wages of sin is. Yes, and it’s death that you choose. If you reject God. But the second-half of that verse is the complete gospel. But it says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Just this morning I explained that to a young lady who was telling me that she thought she was good enough to go to heaven. Because she’s a nice person and she tries to do everything right. And I took her to that person. I said, do you see one word that stands out in that first? He didn’t. That I drew your attention to that one incredible word gift.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

The gift of God. The gift is not something you work for. A gift is something you gratefully received.

[MCG]

Alright.

[Bro. Thal]

So the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. There it is. You can lead someone to Christ on that one verse, and then the last one I quote is Romans 1013. How do you do this? What do you have to do to receive the gift? You have to jump through hoops. Do you have to get baptized? Do you have to?

[MCG]

MHM.

[Bro. Thal]

Jump off a Cliff. Do you have to wear special clothes? Hold your hands in a special way. Pray with your Bible open. What do you do? Well, Romans 10/13 simply says if you call on the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Surely it can’t be that simple. Well, anyone has ever been saved knows it’s that simple. Acknowledge you’re a Sinner, understand. You’re on your way to hell. Accept God’s gift and you accept it by asking for it. So I would say that’s the full extent of the training and understanding you need to be a successful solver.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

All right.

[Bro. Thal]

And you can learn that outline in a couple of hours memorized in your mind forever. I’m an old. Why? I forget most things these days, but I don’t forget the Romans Rd. because it’s ingrained in my mind.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

What?

[Jay]

What about short term missions trips? Can we use those as a means of, you know, creating and galvanizing competent soul winners? You know, they say that might I affect us? Mine heart. So yeah. What do you think?

[Bro. Thal]

The sex is my heart. Is that something that’s intrigued me for many years? You know, I’ve been on the mission field. I spent three years helping a missionary start to church in London, then and my wife and I went and lived with a missionary on a little island in the English Channel. On a different occasion to try and help him get his church going. I’ve never been on a former missions trip, but I am aware that a lot of people go on Mission trip, even in our church. And they are always well subscribed and people are excited about going and when they go, they have a wonderful time and they’ll come back home.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And you never see them on outreach activities. What’s the difference? Well, it’s kind of an exciting adventure to go on the missions trip. You’re going to foreign country. They generally are people who are not well, churched or schooled in the gospels. So you will be as function knowledge to them. And we talking about unsafe people in, say, some.

[MCG]

Alright.

[Bro. Thal]

Little country in Africa or South America, and the whole thing is an exciting. Nothing, but it’s not real in the sense that your life, your real life is back here at home, in the mundane, everyday world where you are known to your neighbors and you don’t want them to think that you’re some kind of a cuckoo bird because you’re always talking about Jesus on the mission field. You can talk about Jesus all day, because that’s what missionaries do.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

But back home, will it really matters? Well, maybe not so much because you know, I’ve still got friends and I don’t like the people at work to think I’m a nut case. Or the guys are grossly line at Walmart. You’re all in line together. It’s a long line. It’s taking hours and everybody’s a bit grumbly and you start talking to the guy next to you. But why not share the gospel with him? You can. You know, there’s not. Like there’s a big sign in Walmart saying you can’t share the gospel here. You can do it right there. So why don’t people do it? Well, because they don’t to be.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Thought of as nut cases or get somebody mad at them and yell at them. You Christians, I can’t stand you because you’re always talking about Jesus or whatever response you get. Mm-hmm. So yeah, missions. Chips are very valuable for the missionaries. I think they are less valuable for the Christians going on the missions trips because. And I hope this doesn’t sound uncharitable. I don’t mean it to sound some of my best friends have been on missionary trips if I saw them come back with hearts of flame ready to become part of the outreach program at their local church, I’d say yes, missions, trips are a wonderful idea, but I see very, very little evidence of that in any of the churches. So I’m not a big fan.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And probably my friends will all be upset with me for saying that, but yeah.

[Jay]

On that same note, how do you think that we can increase the enthusiasm and the desire to participate in local evangelism to the degree that we see people excited to go on short term missions trips? How can we encourage them and increase the enthusiasm for local evangelism?

[MCG]

Yeah. How can we capture lightning in a bottle?

[Bro. Thal]

I’ve been considering this question for several days how to answer it because. It’s it’s something that’s, you know, I’ve been doing this for 40 years. I’ve knocked on thousands, literally thousands and thousands of dollars. I’ve been a member of numerous really good churches with outreach programs.

[MCG]

Alright.

[Bro. Thal]

And I honestly don’t have the answer.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

It’s not like there’s a little formula if you’ll do this one thing, I could be a rich man today. If I came up with that one little prescription, that would make Christians bingo, we’re all now soul winners. There is not one thing. And after 40 years of doing this and being in all these different churches and being involved in the solo running programs and always seeing the same thing, it’s always a core, a small number of people in every church who are really committed. You can count on them to turn up every week. They’re always ready to go. Soul winning. They are the ones who will lead others to Christ. They are the ones who just tend to be more fervent for the. For and, I don’t know what the common denominator is, apart from the fact that they are generally the ones who also seem to really be in love with Jesus. And when I say that, I mean I’ve got friends in my church, some of the best Christians I know, and I know they love Jesus. So I’m not saying you don’t love Jesus if you don’t go soul winning. I’m just saying that.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

The ones you are. Fervent soul when, as clearly loved Jesus.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Bro. Thal]

There is no magic formula.

[MCG]

I feel your struggle, brother, because I experienced it as well. Because you look at it, you know, I guess at one point maybe you can say, hey, you know I am not perfect and I’m maybe not fully obedient in some areas of my life. I may be fully obedient in the area, still winning, but maybe in the area of Bible reading I might not be as upgraded as I should be. And maybe they are in the area of Bible reading and stuff like that. Or maybe they are better at.

[Bro. Thal]

Yes.

[MCG]

That hospitality in terms of going to visit the shutting the older folks of the church and maybe I don’t do that as well. So that’s how I kind of look at it. I don’t know if it’s a compromise or a cop out, but it’s almost like because I don’t really get it because it’s not like it is a suggestion in Scripture. It’s not like it’s one of those.

[Bro. Thal]

Yes, yes.

[MCG]

Things in Scripture where I might get into trouble for even saying it, but it’s not even like grace given yes grace given in the Bible is kind of a. Yeah, we got a call what we saw in Corinthians grace giving and. Implement the grace given programming nature to support missionaries. Not saying you shouldn’t support missionaries. I’m just saying that the command to go and witness is much clearer than the command to have a grace given program in your church. But there are people that will support the grace given tooth and nail, but you will never see them out.

[Bro. Thal]

Absolutely.

[MCG]

And I guess the end of the day, you can tell us, so maybe they’re still winning all the areas of their life, maybe as they go at the supermarket or? Or at work, they’re standing in the line. Maybe so.

[Bro. Thal]

Yes. And let me pick up on that point because it is an important point that I am aware of, certainly in the church where I’m a Member now and and other churches I’ve been in where they’re really mature Christians, ones that really have a walk with God do tend to be constant witnesses for Christ. If you go to their homes, you’ll find that they’re very friendly with their neighbors who know their Christians, they’ve clearly witnessed. They’re not afraid to talk to people who they just meet incidentally at the restaurants and share their faith. So in a healthy church, you will have a group of people like that who are just naturally sharing their faith because they are fervently walking with God. And that’s a natural outflow of your faith.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

They may never come on formal outreach programs, but they are constantly shining the light. So as a counter to.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

The fact that not many people come to formal outreach, certainly in a healthy church, you’ll find many more people who are witnessing, and that is a very good thing.

[Jay]

Do you think that in the same way that many churches have gone the secret sensitive route, they’ve made their services a lot more lively with music and all sorts of special effects in order to draw people in from the world that wouldn’t otherwise go to church? In the same spirit and in the same way, do you think that we should seek ways to make local evangelism more exciting and more palatable for the average Christian so that they would actually engage in local evangelism as opposed to, say, short term missions?

[Bro. Thal]

No, definitely not. We don’t promote spiritual growth by using fleshly methods. One of my big gripes against seekers? Friendly churches.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Is they voted down the gospel to the point that it’s almost meaningless.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And it’s a spiritual law that you do not get your spirit elevated by first stirring your flesh. It’s impossible. Umm, you go to a rock concert with powerful rhythms and glorious music and smoke and mirrors and noise and everybody waving their hands and you’re on an emotional high. The last thing that happens is that your spirit comes alive. It doesn’t. The more your flesh comes alive, the less your spirit is aware that is an absolute spiritual fact.

[Jay]

Hmm. Right.

[Bro. Thal]

So people will go to these churches and get emotionally stirred and come away feeling really good. Man, that was wonderful. I’m tingling all over and I feel great. And I feel so happy. And then real life slaps him in the face and they. Just fall apart? Umm.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Because their flesh was encouraged, not their spirit.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

So any intervention we use to get people excited. About something and then expect them to stick to it spiritually is never going to work. Umm, you gotta get them immersed in scripture and in a walk with God and to grow in the grace and knowledge of God in order for their spirit to grow stronger so that naturally they will obey the impulse to be. Light bearers to be light shiners in the world full of darkness.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. I want to go back to when you were explaining the Romans road and as a follow up question to that brother, because one of my contention is that a lot of Christians. May know the Romans Rd. but there are lot of unsafe people who are not ready for the Roman Rd. especially in an increased acts Chapter 17 Greek culture that the US is going to work now. I think back in the day when you can maybe claim that the country was more moral and probably more Christian. We could start at the Romans Rd. But today it seems to be more increasingly that it can’t start there. Is there a method or where you can use to determine if you should start at the room and rolled with this person, or if you should back up a little bit and actually remove some barriers so they can see the cross clearly before you get to the Romans Rd.

[Bro. Thal]

Yeah, we’re in the area of just common sense. If I’m trying to get into a conversation with someone who’s an absolute Pagan, no, I’m not going to use the Romans, rogue. I’m going to try and build a bridge to that person. Just on a person. On level to find something that we can agree on or something that at least will spark a discussion, but the end of that is always I want to leave that person finally to a presentation of the gospel and the most efficient presentation of the gospel that I’ve learned is the Romans Rd. It’s short.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

It’s powerful. It’s to the point and it says everything you need to know to get. Save so that is always the end point that I’m heading for now. Sometimes in the discussion we don’t get that far right, so I never get to present the gospel. But that would always be in the back of my mind. That’s my purpose.

[MCG]

MHM.

[Bro. Thal]

If I meet and talk to somebody, I honestly don’t know of any occasion when and it’s probably just because of force of habit. After all these years, every time I meet a stranger and we begin a conversation in the back of my mind, I’m constantly thinking. How do I get this to the point where I can present the gospel?

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Sometimes I’m excited cause I wonder what Jesus is going to do with the Holy Spirit is going to do to open that window, and it’s remarkable that times that that does happen when you’ll say something of that person will say something and suddenly you’ll be talking about spiritual things.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

And eternal life. Or what’s life all about? And then you can very gently bring the Romans Rd. in. So the Romans Rd. isn’t something you use as a hammer to beat people with. It’s the pathway. It’s literally a roadway with steps along it to take someone from unbelief.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

To submission to God.

[Jay]

We talked about why short term missions are more palatable to a lot of Christians than local evangelism, and you also mentioned something that I think is key when you said that we shouldn’t be using the flesh to stir up the spirit because it’s axiomatic that when the flesh rises up, the spirit is diminished and opposite. It’s true as well. So how should we judge the effectiveness? Of our evangelism of our soul, winning of our competency in that area in light of that truth, how do we know if the door to door that we do or the one to one personal conversations, or maybe it’s open air preaching? How do we know that we’re being effective? How should we judge the?

[Bro. Thal]

In any church, we have one measure that is infallible in every church you’ll ever be a member of, and that measure is is the church growing.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

You know the formula back in the days of acts, the Lord added daily to the church, such as should be saved. Well, he’s still doing exactly the same thing.

[MCG]

Hmm. Right.

[Bro. Thal]

And so if you are in a healthy church where there are a lot of people reaching out to the community, shining the light in the community and where when that body of Christ comes together, there’s a real sense of the presence of God. That is what draws. People. One of the things that thrills me every week, one of the things that motivates me to get early to church every Sunday is when I walk in those doors. I just feel this joy.

[MCG]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

Because the body of Christ is there and is multiplied in all my brothers and sisters, and there’s a sense of God’s presence. And I watch with fascination when guests visit. Has arrived, and each Sunday we have visitors in our church. Never seen them before. They just turn up at the door and I often ask them, why are you here? And they say, well, we’re not sure we’re driving past and just thought you’d come and check it out or we were looking for a good church or somebody recommended this to us or somebody knocked on our door. You know, the most effective outreach in our churches.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

Putting out door hangers, not actually soulwinning. Over the years, we have noticed the greatest number of people who come to our church come because they found their door hanger that told them about our church. And so we do that twice a month. We go out and just posted their neighborhoods in these door hangers. Mm-hmm. So it’s the presence of God. It’s the atmosphere in the church.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Jay]

Right.

[Bro. Thal]

That flows from the hearts of a united, maturing, dedicated body of Christ. That’s the ultimate changing force in any community that will draw, and people don’t know what’s attracting them. That they’ll be attracted to that source.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Bro. Thal]

And encounter the real Jesus.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. You know, in the area of competence, the story stole of a young man on his dying bed that inspired him by the name of must I go an empty handed? I’m going to have Jay read a brief history of that him and also couple verses of. To him.

[Jay]

This him is titled must I go and empty handed? It was written in the 1800s and I’ll just read the blurb here from the IB LP leaning forward so as not to miss a single word. Reverend Charles Luther listened intently. The visiting evangelist shared about a dying young man’s confession. In Christian service, only a month before his death, the young man’s last words had been a lament. No high. I’m not afraid, he said. Jesus saves me now, but ohh must I go and empty hand? It The dying man knew he would have joy in Jesus’s presence, and yet he was so sorrowful because he had not led others to Jesus. Inspired by the heartbreaking testimony, Reverend Luther wrote a poem that considered the sadness of meeting Jesus empty handed. He wrote not at death. I shrink, nor falter. For my savior saves me now. But to meet him empty handed. Thought of that now clouds my brow. Once the poem was completed, Reverend Luther gave it to George C Stebbins, an American gospel hymn writer and composer. Mr. Stebbins composed the music for the words, and the poem became the hymn titled must I Go and Empty handed. The story doesn’t end there. About 15 years later, a reckless sinful man stumbled upon a city mission. Leading in England while others were singing the third verse of this him the man was convicted as he heard these. Words all the years and sinning wasted, could I but recall them now. I would give them to my savior, to his will. I’d gladly bow. The man went home miserable, so distressed that he could not eat. That afternoon he was out and happened to pass by a worker’s Bible meeting, entering the room. He was bewildered to here. Being sung the very same hymn that had convicted him that morning. Falling to his knees, he surrendered his life to Christ, truly changed his transformed life, demonstrated a desire to waste no more years in sin, but to follow Christ. And I have 3 words of the Him here I’ll just read those words very quickly. Each stands as the first stands that says must I go and empty handed. Thus, my dear Redeemer meat, not one day of service, give him lay no trophy at his feet. Must I go and empty handed? Must I meet my savior soul? Not one soul with which to greet him? Must I empty handed? Go. Not at death, I shrink or falter for my savior. Saves me now. But to meet him empty handed. Thought of that now clouds my brow. All the years in sinning. Wasted, could I? But recall them now, I would give them to my savior, to his will. I’d gladly bow. Oh, ye Saints arouse, be earnest up and work while yet his day ere the night of death. Or take you strive for souls while you still. Of May.

[MCG]

You know, as I think about that song, brother, it’s a prayer of my heart that all Christians will look at it and say, hey, must I go empty handed? And sadly, most of us will go and empty handed.

[Bro. Thal]

That is sad.

[MCG]

Yeah, and think nothing of it. It reminds me of a young man who I led to the Lord couple years ago who took his own life. And I really think about it. You know, I can say, you know, when I go, I’m not gonna go empty handed because he has gone on before me.

[Bro. Thal]

OK.

[MCG]

I think about it like how likely would it have been that a young man would have gotten safe if it wasn’t for that Jerry Thursday evening? I didn’t even want to go out because it was only three persons that showed up that night and I was like, you know what? I’m tired. I don’t really want to go and. That’s what happened that night. The young man got.

[Bro. Thal]

Safe. You know, on that same note, I often tell people that I’m trying to encourage to be sober. That when they get to heaven one day, of course the first one they’re going to see Jesus and that’s going to. Be absolutely wonderful.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Bro. Thal]

But when that glorious meeting is over and they’re now looking around heaven to try and take in the rest of it, they’re going to notice a big cloud of dust off in one corner. And if they walk towards that cloud of dust, they’ll hear a lot of noise and excitment and when they get there, it’s going to be me and all the people have led to Christ. We are going to be having a party, that we’re gonna be having a hoedown and that is one of my motivations. It’s just something that excites me. The thought that of all the people I’ve introduced to Christ, we’re going to be together one day celebrating in heaven.

Speaker

Hmm.

[MCG]

Anything. Yeah.

[Bro. Thal]

It’s going to make heaven so. Much to each other.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Alright. We’ll end with just the instrumental of that. Him. Must I go on empty handed? Brother Edward Thal it was indeed a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Bro. Thal]

Thank you, brother. Amen.

[Jay]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Did you know that you could find us on Twitter, Gab Parlor, Facebook and Reddit, go to removingbarriers.net/contact and like and follow us on social media, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross?

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us, to support this podcast, or to learn more about Removing Barriers. Go to: removingbarriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.