Episode 242

Missionary Marco joins us on this episode of the Removing Barriers Podcast to discuss John Perkins, a pastor described at the time of his death as one of America’s unsung heroes for having sought to heal the scourge of racism through the ministry of the church. He was raised by his grandmother after the death of his mother and the abandonment of his father and came to faith as an adult, at the invitation of his son. From that point on, having experienced overt racism firsthand and making the Christlike decision to forgive, Perkins threw all of himself into ministering to the people around him. He moved out of the affluent area he was living in to a less desirable “ghetto” area. All aspects of his ministry involved real action to combat socio-economic issues that accompany the spiritual issues the people faced. At first glance and in light of recent trends, we may be tempted to dismiss his work as the social gospel or woke theology, but Missionary Marco argues that our churches may be able to learn a thing or two about missions from Perkins, and that Christians should be challenged to give more of themselves to the Great Commission. Though there are certain aspects of Perkins’ theology that Missionary Marco would not agree with, he joins us to help shed more light on this relatively unknown minister and the good he’s done to address some of the ugly realities in U.S. race relations today.

[Missionary Marco]

No, I’m here to see the pastor. And the secretary was kind of confused because black people didn’t do that. And so he did came in, he allowed them to come in and they sat down and they just kind of poured over their problem. And he said, yeah, my church would never allow this. And this pastor was really burdened about it. And Perkins knew 2 white pastors like this, both of them committed suicide.

[MCG]

Oh, wow.

[Missionary Marco]

He thinks it was because of the tension. that they had in their church. And so what Perkins asked himself, if Christ can save my soul, why can’t he change Mississippi?

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers, so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 242 of the Removing Barriers podcast. And in this episode, we’ll be sitting down with Missionary Marco, to discuss John Perkins and race relations in the church. This discussion was birthed from a finals paper on theology, mission, formation, character, and leadership of John Perkins, written by Missionary Marco.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net slash donate. Removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

All right, Marco, welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Missionary Marco]

Thank you so much. It’s so good to be back. Thank you for having me again. You know, always good to visit with you good folks.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Thanks for putting us in a basic schedule. Well, before we jump into our topic on John Perkins and race relations in the church, what’s the latest on the mission field? Tell the folks what’s going on with you and your lovely wife down there in Yogra.

[Missionary Marco]

We’ve been looking after, we’ve turned our church plant over to a pastor, someone I’ve been training up for years. We’re helping with another church plant. the missionaries here can go on furlough. So we’ve been here for a month. It’s been a pretty intense month, but we’re grateful for what God’s doing and looking forward to helping as much as we can here for the six months or so that we’ll be here.

[MCG]

Great. Well, let’s get into it. Let’s talk about John Perkins. And for those who have never heard of him or know nothing about him, maybe like myself, who was John Perkins?

[Missionary Marco]

Well, John Perkins, he was a Christian preacher and he actually just died a few months ago. He was quite influential in social action, social justice. He was born in Mississippi in 1930 on a cotton plantation. His mother died of nutrition deficiency when he was just seven months old. And so he was raised by his grandparents. His dad wasn’t around either. His big brother was a World War II veteran and he was gunned down. in the street by a marshal when he was only 17 years old. He was totally innocent. He was a civil rights activist. There was a lot of racism where he grew up. And he wanted to change things for the better. And the people that he ran around with, lawfully, wasn’t doing anything bad, got arrested. They brought him into jail. They beat him. He wasn’t sure he was going to live. They put a fork up his nose, they put a fork down his throat, the police did. They beat him within an inch of his life, made him clean up his own blood. When he was in the hospital, they weren’t sure he was going to live. And he got treated by the medical staff there who happened to all be white. And he had a real time of reckoning. How could, on the one hand, these white people who treated him so wickedly How could that happen? On the other hand, there was people who were caring for him, trying to heal him, trying to save his life on the other. So he had a real time of reflection there. He didn’t get saved there, but he had a real time of reckoning, trying to figure out his life. He had every opportunity and every reason to be bitter because of what happened to him. But the help that he received, I think, helped him from becoming completely bitter and lost.

[Jay]

How did he ultimately come to salvation?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, that was special. So he did what a lot of people do in the place he was from there in rural Mississippi. He left the first chance he could because it was no place. He’d never get ahead in life. He would always be scared of something else happening to him. He certainly would never excel in life. Born in the wrong class, in the wrong place, the way most people consider it there. So he left, he went for California, had a beautiful nine-bedroom home and a job and his children started going to Sunday school. His son got saved and that led to him later getting saved. So that’s how he came to the Lord. He was really through his children getting saved.

[MCG]

Yeah, man. Well, you mentioned Mississippi and you mentioned 1930. So, you know, Mississippi, one of those areas in the South. And unfortunately, Mississippi’s in the news again, has been since the 4th of July because of a young man who mysteriously died from maybe drowning or something like that. And A lot of folks are bringing back up the racial tension there, but unrelated to this, what did he preach or stand for? John Perkins audience.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, that’s good. He ultimately, after being saved for a while, really got burdened that he had to go back to Mississippi. Now he obviously had no earthly reason to want to go back. His wife certainly didn’t want to go back because they had a good life. Like I said, a nine bedroom home in California. And there was nothing for them there other than the racism they felt, the potential fear. This is a time where there was still white-only schools and that sort of thing down there. So he really had no earthly reason to go back. But he thought, there’s a lot of people who were like me, who are crap, who don’t have a way out. He was able to work hard and somehow have an opportunity to get out of there. But most people there didn’t have that opportunity. So they just flounder there and he really felt burdened to go back. So they ended up doing that. He went back to Mendendall, Mississippi there, and he worked right from there. He was very much in the community. He didn’t minister from outside. I think for a while they considered commuting from the nearest big city, but then they realized they’ve got to be there to be able to help the people there.

[Jay]

Now, in your final essay, your thesis reads as this: John Perkins’ life and ministry demonstrate that authentic Christian faith unites reconciliation with God and neighbor through practical, incarnational action. By calling the church to embrace relocation into marginalized communities, develop indigenous leadership, and pursue social action rooted in scripture and prayer, Perkins models a holistic gospel that confronts racism, cultivates sustainable transformation, and embodies the love of Christ in tangible ways. Why the word incarnational and how would you define that word?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, that’s good. I guess as Christians we think that Lord Jesus Christ, he had no reason to come to this earth, but he did other than his love for us. He had no motivation otherwise. There was nothing here for him. He left the glory of heaven. be here with us in, I think, John 114, who said, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us that we beheld his glory. The glory is of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. So, you know, he left the glory of heaven to put on flesh. And so part of… What Perkins was doing is the same thing. He knew that he couldn’t help people from California. He knew he couldn’t even help people from a bigger city in Mississippi and maybe commute in and out. He knew he would be in and with them. It’s not the most impoverished place in the US, but it’s definitely up there. So he knew there was really no hope for these folks. Obviously, the gospel is the hope, but the gospel does more than just give someone a ticket to heaven. And he knew that these people needed They needed an education, they needed an opportunity to work, and they didn’t have that just because of the situation they were in. If you read more of his testimony, it’s amazing sometimes the burdens and the difficulties some people have just to try and eke out a life.

[MCG]

Yeah. Well, continuing on that he says, And of course, you alluded to this already that he suffered a beating. He said, after the beating I suffered in Brandon, Mississippi, I spent a good deal of time in the hospital. I was broken in body and broken in spirit. I had to come to understand that my reaction of anger, hate and bitterness was as bad as the action of the white jail guards who had beaten me. It was at that point that I was able to see my own brokenness. God used the black and white nurses and doctors at the hospital to wash my wounds. For me, they were symbolic of people who had beaten me. What they did heal more than just my broken body, it healed my heart. I wanted to hate all white people after what happened to me. But God used their compassion and care to break the wall of anger, distrust and bitterness. He used their kindness to convict me of how wrong I was to harbor bitterness in my heart. He set me free to love them in return. So comparing the beating Perkins get and coming to his own silverness through it, which is amazing that you will come to your own silverness to beating. How do you compare contrast or reconcile his response to his white medics with today’s advocacy for black resistance, revenge and reparation? Because Perkins didn’t seem like he was calling for that. He was saying, hey, I was beaten, but I saw my own sinfulness even through the beating, which to me is amazing because I don’t think I would come to that conclusion that way.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, he had a lot to be bitter over, but I think even just the providence of God and all that, just putting the right people to heal him, because I mean, doctors are just like anybody else. Some of them are just trying, I appreciate doctors, of course, but what if he would have had a rude doctor you know just had insult to injury but God made it so that he had good people looking after him and apparently that broke his heart or began to break his heart so you know just seeing God’s providence even God’s patience because his day his salvation the time where he accepted Christ didn’t come till years later but he does look back on that moment as a real light bulb moment God’s patient with us.

[MCG]

Amen yeah I just find it amazing because in today’s culture, race relations and all this stuff, if someone should be beaten today by someone of opposite race and no matter how kind people are to them at the hospital, I guess to some degree that is expected because I guess you’re getting that big hospital bill or whatever the case may be.

[Missionary Marco]

I see.

[MCG]

You know, today it will be lawsuits and hatred and revenge and even before he was regenerated. You look at it and say like, wow, maybe this is their problem and not the race problem, I guess, in some respect.

[Missionary Marco]

I think part of the whole bitterness and the whole reparation thing There just seems to be a suspicion of anybody doing anything for the sake of just trying to help someone. Everything somehow is related to a power struggle. Nobody can be nice to anyone. There’s always got to be some sort of angle. It has to be an oppressor and oppressed situation. But apparently he didn’t go to university enough to get all that stuff. He just saw people for what they were. And somehow, I mean, he had every reason to get bitter there and he didn’t.

[MCG]

Right, which is amazing.

[Jay]

Now, you mentioned in your thesis that John Perkins could have had a greater impact on Christians had he refined what he communicated. You mentioned how communication was as much his business, or at least should have been, as much as social action was. And he would tend to perhaps take an overly simplistic view on things that were quite nuanced and quite intricate and complicated. Sometimes he would give it without the biblical undergirding. He advocated for the communist terrorists of South Africa innocence, appropriating their property, the whole kill the bores thing. He even supported Black Lives Matter. So clearly he’s not your particular stripe of Christianity. How do you balance biblical separation and your admiration of Perkins? Perhaps, you know how they say, you know, chew the meat or eat the meat, spit out the bones. How do you balance that when you consider the life and work and theology of John Perkins?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, I think that’s a good question. And I wrote some of those criticisms as much as I’d admire him. I wrote those criticisms. Most people aren’t good at more than one thing in life, even great people. And so you can admire them in one sense and then you have to look at other parts of their lives and say, you know what, he may be an expert in this and he may be admirable in this. And like you said, he lost some good people in his church and he wrote about it because he didn’t have a statement of faith in his church. And it seems like later on in his ministry, he did. But that’s pretty important. What an identity of a group is, especially of a church, you know, you need a statement of faith. What do you believe? Who are you if you don’t have that? So I trust that as he wrote that earlier on in his life, I trust that that got better. He wrote some things. Sometimes it’s not fair to criticize people because they may just, different than criticizing me for something I say out of context. He may have said something in passing. Maybe there’s more context to it that he didn’t write down. But he is a public figure. He does communicate for a living. So when you’re going to talk about something controversial, whether it’s rebels killing people, whether it’s communism, whether it’s Americans inventing slavery, which they didn’t, you need to really give some context there so that you can avoid people criticizing you and more people can stand behind you. I think that there may have been people who would have appreciated him more had he given more context in some of the states.

[MCG]

Yeah, just to drive in some of the controversies of Perkins or surrounding Perkins, one of the big thing is that he supported Black Lives Matter and a lot of Christians, at least Bible belief Christians, will totally denounce Black Lives Matter. I’m going to let you comment on that. I have something to say about that, but I’ll let you comment on that and then come back in.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, if I remember correctly, His son actually got caught up in some violence there. Don’t quote me on that. I don’t remember that. This is just something I remember from reading his literature. And so he admits that he got a little bit of criticism there. But yeah, there was a lot of violence and looting and arson responsible, but really caused a lot by Black Lives Matter. There were 25 deaths directly caused by their protests, $2 billion in damage. So it’s fine to be obviously pro justice and pro making wrong things right. But I mean, 2 wrongs don’t make it right. I don’t know that the violence isn’t justified.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. of course, we already mentioned that Perkins was born in 1930.

[Missionary Marco]

Sure.

[MCG]

I wonder if, you know, his age had somewhat to do with his support, you know, extending Olive Ranch here, because Sometimes folks that are born in that time and had to experience segregation and stuff like that, they had a little bit different view of the Black Lives Matter and that they support every fine details of it. They basically support it on a surface where they believe that the emphasis is important and not necessarily the doctrine behind of it. Of course, you and I know that who have research and gone to Black Lives Matter’s website and read what we believe and stuff like that, know that this was a hateful God hating organization that ultimately fill their own pocket and leave everyone else off to dry. But at his age, maybe getting his news only from, you know, traditional media and not researching, he might just say, hey, I believe, you know, the emphasis is important. I’ve spoken to other Christians, probably in the same generation as Perkins, and he too, at least one of them didn’t have any issue with Black Lives Matter. At least on the surface. And you could tell from talking to this gentleman that he probably didn’t want the Black Lives Matter website. He probably still getting his news from the traditional media rather than really digging in and see what they believe. I’m sure he didn’t go on YouTube and saw the founder of Black Lives Matter saying that we are trained Marxists. I would assume he doesn’t even go to Marxism.

[Missionary Marco]

Doesn’t seem it. I’ve got two of his quotes here from two different books of his. Perkins in one place said, People get trapped into perpetually seeing themselves as victims. It’s hard to measure the damage that can be caused by feeling inferior and hopeless. And he also said, If ever there was someone who could play the victim card, Joseph could have easily done that. But instead he responds, As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result to preserve many people alive. He was not a fan of intersectionality, victimhood. He didn’t think that helped people. So despite what he did say about BLM, he didn’t have the same philosophy.

[MCG]

Right.

[Jay]

Now we’re going to ask a question about how the church should be addressing race, relations, reconciliation, and all those different things. But we’re going to ask it in three different ways. It may sound like the same question, but we’re trying to tackle this thing from three different angles because we are 2,000 years on from the Lord’s resurrection and we are still dealing with this issue. So my question, you have in your paper, you stated that Perkins knew that ridding the South of racism would entail confronting some dearly held sacred cows, calling people to turn from them and to turn to God. What are those sacred cows that you think that we as a people or perhaps as a church that we need to turn away from so that we could make some significant headway in dealing with this issue?

[Missionary Marco]

That’s an excellent question. The early church struggled with, I guess, whether it’s racism or segregation. He had quoted what Martin Luther King Jr. and Billy Graham had said in separate occasions that 11 o’clock on Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America. And so I I really think churches should look like their community. I guess in that respect, if a community is 90% black and the church is 90% black, I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a bad thing or vice versa. If the community is 90% white and the church is 90% white, that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. I think the church should look like the community. Obviously, there are some communities that are harder to break into and things like that happen, but I think that’s maybe a rule of thumb or an indicator that church is healthy. There can be racism in the church In that sense, we’re all going to be up there together. If you are a Christian, no one’s going to be superior to anyone else. Everybody feels maybe a little bit more comfortable around their people, whatever that is. But there always has to be an attitude that we’re all one, just like Perkins said, we’re all one blood. We’re one people, especially in Christ. And so that attitude needs to be there. can’t be an attitude of superiority or inferiority. There needs to be compassion.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. You know, in episode 18, race relation of the church, we had Pastor Mike on. I have two clips that I took from that episode. I’m gonna play one now where he talk about the separation of the churches and black churches and white churches. Then I’ll let you comment and I might have some commentary on it as well. Here is Pastor Mike.

[Pastor Mike]

If my city is diverse and my church is not, there’s a problem. There’s something wrong with that. And I think that that’s not understanding our theology. I don’t think it was ever God’s intention for us to have white churches and black churches. I don’t believe that was ever his intention. I think in a community or an area that’s made-up of all kinds of people. I know of a church on the other side of the country that was a predominantly white church. In their attempt to reach black people, they started a black church ministry that met in another part of the building. So how some churches have a Spanish ministry or an Asian ministry and there’s a language barrier, which makes sense. But there’s not a language barrier between black and white people. I mean, we may use Ebonics or talk differently or use different types of slang terminology, whatever. But in reality, there’s not a linguistic barrier. There should not be a difference between the two where you have a black church that meets separately, that sends a signal that there’s a disparity between the two.

[MCG]

Yeah, so that’s what he said. Again, that’s episode 18 if you want to go listen to it. You have anything to say to that, Marco?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, I would agree with him. I also think, I mean, certain communities have some suspicions. I totally agree with what he said. I think that doesn’t seem right. On the other hand, I also realize that some people, just like I said earlier, may be more likely to listen to one of their own. And we may not like that, but that isn’t true for a lot of people. And so maybe that’s a stepping stone. I wouldn’t be an expert on that. I’ve got a little bit of experience in Spanish churches in English-speaking countries. And sometimes those places even become a little bit carnal and they’re more concerned about their own culture than Christ. And so I can certainly see that about having a larger black ministries inside a larger white church. But maybe there are exceptions to the rule. I wouldn’t be able to, with a broad brush, say it should never be done. But I think as a general rule, it wouldn’t be sensible in the experience I have to segregate people that way.

[MCG]

Yeah, I would say I mostly agree with him. I guess the but will be that I have questions because, you know, One, okay, don’t separate by race, you can separate by language, basically what he said, because there’s a language barrier there, which is understand. And of course, one argument could be, hey, you can have everyone in one room and use a translator with headsets. And then the other thing is that how many people would want to sit in an English service with a headset on to have it translated in Spanish or some other Asian language or whatever the case may be, that will provide some issues there. And 2, know, are we sacrificing the good so we can have the best, but we don’t have the best, you know, because we have to live with the reality that we have. And in terms that how effective would a white person be if they’re going to the inner city of Baltimore or downtown Ferguson, Missouri? How effective would they be if they go there? And then are we finding black people who wants to go back there? Because black people are trying to, you You know, look at the rich ones, the LeBron James of the world, and you don’t even have to go that far. Look at the ones that are middle class and upper middle class. They don’t stay downtown. They don’t stay in the inner cities. They move out to the suburbs where they can have land and some sort of peace and quietness. Actually, recently there’s this lady, I think she moved state and she went to one of these Midwest state where 90 something percent of the population is white. And she made a social media post and she was praising how quiet and peaceful it is and everything. And she was getting a bunch of backlash. But once the black person in the US makes some money, even if they were born in the inner cities, they’re coming out. But now as Christians, we’re asking them to go back in. And it might be Noble, Perkins did it, but I don’t know how many people are going to want to go back in.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, I’m not sure either. I think, I mean, churches that believe in missions believe missionaries can go reach people of a different ethnicity, a different culture, different language, and God can work. I’m not saying it’s easy, but why wouldn’t it work in the US? Why wouldn’t it work in Canada? Why wouldn’t it work in England? I’m talking about inner cities.

[MCG]

Culture.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, there’s more of a culture jump to a missionary. You’re talking about a different country, a different language. You know, I get that there’s a cultural barrier But I think Christ can overcome it. Either that or our whole missionary movement is built on a fable.

[MCG]

Yeah, I’m going to let Jay jump in. But again, episode 18, Pastor Mike talk about this. And again, I can’t speak for it because I’m not African American. I’m from the Caribbean. But he spoke about this and he said, hey, there’s a unique relationship between black Americans, African Americans, and white Americans that, it’s not the same with a black person from Africa. So the white American can leave and go to Africa and have a great relationship with the black folks over there in our country in Africa. But it’s a different dynamic when that same white person leave the suburbia of America and go into innocence, try to beat the black person up there. So culture, race, and maybe history cause some kind of issue there.

[Jay]

Sure. then the question becomes, okay, then aren’t these just barriers that need to be removed then? If black people can’t receive the gospel from a white preacher because of the historical nature of the relationship between African Americans and white Americans, well then what in the world is missions for, as Brother Marco said. Now, Perkins himself said that he longed for a day when racism is just a memory and that churches are multicultural. I hate to sound pessimistic. That’s for sure. Because you certainly can’t have a potluck without Mexican food. I mean, I’m just going to be real about this, right? But some people would say, hey, this is a fool’s errand because when you mix cultures, you’re going to have an issue. Culture is the glue that holds people together. And so if you’re going to blend ethnicities, blend different people groups, you have to at least have a unifying culture. And it seems that, and I don’t know if that’s true, I would like to know what you think of that statement. And we have an example in scripture where the early church had to deal with certain racial or perhaps ethnic issues where people were coming together under the banner of Christ, but then there were these very real social issues that had to be addressed. What are your thoughts on that, both on the whole idea of the church being multicultural and how it was handled in the early church?

[Missionary Marco]

Well, the church is unique. I totally agree with you. Culture is what binds us together, makes us determine what is right and wrong, how to live. That is absolutely essential. If you have a society and people don’t share a culture, it won’t last long. But the unique thing about a church is you have that identity. You all share Christ. And so there may be other things that you differ on, but if Christ is in common, the rest are details. And there are things you can look at differently and differ on, and even speak differently. But if Christ is there, and that’s the only danger I’ve seen in some ethnic churches in North America, is that sometimes what draws them, and when I say ethnic, I mean other languages like Spanish and Russian as well, Slavic churches, that sometimes the culture becomes more important than Christ. And so then you have a problem with identity. I mean, identity is huge. You think about how big of an issue it is in our society. It should be important in our church too, like I’ve mentioned doctrine. So if the different diverse people in a church have Christ in common, that’s the most important thing. Everything else should fall into place.

[MCG]

Yeah, but where my mind is going right now is that it’s easier said than done, because of course, we’re also talking about we’re still living in the flesh. I’ll use myself as an example, and this might be just a minor stuff. Like when I grew up and we are having lunch at church, something after the morning service, we’re having some sort of, what do you call it, potluck or lunch on the lawn or whatever the case may be. We’re talking about food, real food, tasty food, food that you want to stay back and get. And you might say that man is a bit fleshly. But in my current church, and again, this is just a cultural thing, I can’t say I enjoy the food. And a lot of times I stay back because my wife wants to stay back or the kids want to stay back or whatever the case may be. But the food doesn’t attract me. But if I was home in the Caribbean where I grew up and they say food, I’m going to be first in line because I know I’m getting some good stuff. So I wonder, You know, when you say, okay, the culture and all that stuff, yeah, Christ, but some people look at it and like, man, I’m going to be eating, whatever the case may be, I don’t want to have too much on my church and stuff coming sure. Some of them are going to be listening. But I’m just saying sometimes the cultural stuff becomes to a point where you say, man, do I even want to stay back and have this fellowship? And I’m driving my wife crazy.

[Jay]

that’s exactly I think. Brother Marco, I don’t want to speak for you, but that’s exactly the idea. The idea is putting Christ first. So the fellowship before the preferences or before the nuances of your individual culture. If we put Christ first, then I’m not saying it’s going to be easy, but there’s a way to do it. It’s possible. Am I understanding you correctly, brother?

[Missionary Marco]

It’s possible. I mean, that’s why I said that I agree with Pastor Mike. I agree with everything you said. Maybe there’s situations where you have to do something else. And so, whether it’s potlucks or whatever church activities are, we realize the church is more than just food and activities, but those are things that a church does. And ultimately, what Perkins was after was how the church reaches the community, not just in its evangelism, but other things that take part of their evangelism. A huge issue they saw in their church was teenage girls getting pregnant. So they’re dropping out of high school. They amount to nothing. They have no opportunity in life. Their lives go terrible. There’s no dad involved. So one of the things they did, like it or lump it, they said, well, these girls need a chance at life. And what they needed to do, because they didn’t have anyone else to help them, was they started a daycare so these girls could finish and make something in their lives and give their children a leg up, a help. And so that’s something I guess his ministry, his church did early on, one of the first things he did. He did a lot of things like that, very practical things that maybe if you’re in a community that doesn’t have a lot of teenage pregnancies, then that wouldn’t be some way that you could meet the community’s needs. But if I lived anywhere near, I’d have to make sure that he reviews the menu for the potluck so that everything’s going to be okay at church.

[Jay]

Does that responsibility, do you think, brother, does that responsibility all fall on the pastor to see what the church needs and what’s happening in a cultural sense and initiate and create the culture necessary to reach those goals? Or is this something that everyone in the body should be looking at and addressing? Should it come from top down or is this more like bottom up? How does the church practically work those things out?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, I think it probably has to. It wouldn’t work too well in either way if the pastor felt like that and the people didn’t or vice versa. It wouldn’t last long if the people were very welcoming and had a vision for their community and their pastor didn’t. You know, everybody, the pastor’s in one sense, he’s a leader, but in another sense, he’s just another member. So they all have to be going together.

[MCG]

You know, as you mentioned that, Malco, is that What go through my mind is this, because of course, we go to Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. You establish Independent Baptist Churches in foreign land. And for most part, Independent Baptist Church have been about the gospel, spreading the gospel and stuff like that. And there’s nothing wrong with that, of course. But I think we’re going to run into a little bit of issue because of course, Perkins, great. Open a daycare so these young girls can have free daycare so these young girls can finish school. But the straight jacket, tie wearing, clean shaven, Independent Fundamental Baptist Church person is going to say, hey, why are we enabling these young ladies in their sin, so to speak? And why is it that we’re attacking the fruit rather than the root? Because if we spread the gospel to these young people, maybe they’ll get saved before they end up being pregnant out of wedlock. And then Perkins, again, I don’t think he’s saying this, but Perkins say, hey, This is the reality of the area I’m in and I’m going to provide this to maybe as a means to win them. I don’t know how successful he was with that in terms of winning them, but I guess that would be a good case study to say, hey, Perkins did this and he was very successful in winning them to the loss and now they’re adults, they’re still in the church. I don’t know, but I can see that it will be a hard sell for any pastor of churches of our stripe to say, hey, let’s open a free daycare for teenagers who are getting pregnant out of the wedlock?

[Missionary Marco]

Sure. It would depend on your community, first off. What really started burdening Perkins after he surrendered to serve the Lord, and as he was even teaching in a seminary, he was cutting edge. So I don’t know when he would have been teaching in the seminary, maybe in the 70s. And so he was using flannel graph. He’s a Bible college professor using flannel graph, and all these other preachers are there, and they’re, Wow, they’re impressed by his preaching. And a couple of white preachers were there in Mississippi. And one of them went up to him. He was a friend of his. Well, as much as they could be friends back then, I guess. And he came up to him and he said, Brother, I love that. I love that preaching. You should really… And then he stopped himself. And Perkins knew this guy was gonna ask him to come to the church. And then it just kind of dawned on him, Oh yeah, this guy’s black.

[Jay]

Oh, wow.

[Missionary Marco]

And it bothered Perkins. Well, it obviously bothered that man because he was already thinking. And so Perkins did something. If you read a few of his stories, it’s fascinating because this guy was saying that they got along great and it just bothered Perkins. And he did something he never did before. He went to this guy’s white church during the day. And he went through the door and the janitor was there. And the secretary said something like, Are you two friends? No, I’m here to see the pastor. And the secretary was kind of confused because black people didn’t do that. And so he did came in, he allowed them to come in and they sat down and they just kind of poured over their problem. And he said, Yeah, my church would never allow this. And this pastor was really burdened about it. And Perkins knew two white pastors like this, both of them committed suicide. He thinks it was because of the tension that they had in their church. And so what Perkins asked himself, if Christ can save my soul, why can’t he change Mississippi? I don’t know if it was over 90% of people going to church, but there was a lot of Christians there. And yet this sort of thing existed and this was normal. And so, you’re right, teenage pregnancies should end when Christ comes in. But in the meanwhile, you have teenage pregnancies. So how do you fix that? Racism shouldn’t exist where Christianity exists. We all agree, but it does. Now what? And so you have to preach against it, but what else do you do?

[MCG]

Right. Yeah, there’s a practical side of it as well. Let me play another clip of episode 18 by Pastor Mike. This is a longer one, so maybe you can listen and take a sip of water or something. But this is Pastor Mike again, and he’s talking about why the black folks are not coming to the white churches.

[Pastor Mike]

A lot of churches would love to have others in their churches, but they’re not willing to do what it takes. Price is too high. Like you said, it’s easy easier to pay. It’s like, I’m not a handyman. If something gets done around my house, I’ve called, what is it, Craigslist or not Craigslist, whatever those things are, find a handyman, Anita’s, I forget what it’s called, but I find somebody to do it because, you know, for me to do it, it’s not going to turn out right. It’s not in my wheelhouse. So we are comfortable with, like you said, paying someone else to do it. But I think one of the prices that we don’t want to pay is reaching out. Paul said he became all things to all men that he might save some and adjusting our own cultural norms and comforts in order to reach other people. Church has become our social setting. It’s become our comfort zone. It’s become where our friends are. And so we’re comfortable with the way it is. And sure, it would be nice to have others, but I’m not going to upend my comforts or give up the things that I like to have in order to be more culturally acceptable or culturally relevant to other people. And I think that’s a problem. And I think that’s something that I can talk about Independent Baptists, because as they say, I are one. So I don’t feel like I’m disparaging anyone else. But we are very, very comfortable with things being the way we want them to be. And even dangerously elevating those things to the level of scripture and right and wrong, as opposed to preferences, but we hold on to these sacred cows as we have. And as a result, we have created our own culture that draws our own culture. We create an environment that draws more like ourselves. rather than as Paul did when he needed to. Paul was half Greek and he was half Jewish. When Paul needed to be a Jew, he was a Jew. When Paul needed to be a Greek, he was a Greek. He did what he needed to do in order to reach the people who were in front of him. We don’t do that. We’re not going to change our music. We’re not going to change our approach. We’re not going to change our environment. our atmosphere. We’re not going to do any of those things. They need to accept who we are. And as a result, many people, if we put signs up and said, all black people welcome in front of our churches, they’re not going to come. It’s not a matter now of doing it. And because we’ve created this great cultural divide, we’ve created environments where Most of these churches that want to reach out or even desire to reach out to black people don’t know how to. They don’t know anything about them. We have suffered from being segregated. We have lost out. Our children have lost out. Our cultures have lost out. We’ve created this racial tension or at least helped to create the racial tension in our country, which wouldn’t have existed if the church had done what it’s supposed to do. The mystery of the church The great mystery was that all people, not just the Jews, would be accepted as God’s people. And that’s the thing that the Jews didn’t see. The disciples didn’t even understand that. It wasn’t until Jesus had finished his earthly ministry. And even after that, they still didn’t understand that God was no respecter of persons. Well, we’re living today as if that still exists. But instead of it being Jews and Gentiles, it’s become, you know, in many cases, white Americans have come to accept this. And it’s not a sense of racism as, we don’t want these people. It’s almost like, as long as I reach my own, I’m okay. And we’ve accepted this, we’ve become slaves to our comforts. And that apathy and that lack of desire or burden and the segregation that as a result of that just creates A vicious cycle where the further we go, the worse and worse and the less and less we’re able to attract other people. While other churches, evangelical churches, other denominations seem to not have a problem, the same problem in reaching people. And that’s a sad thing.

[MCG]

Yeah, so There you have it, episode 18, if you want to go and listen to that full episode, Racial Relations and the Church with Pastor Mike. But he said some things there that I’m going to touch on a little bit, then I’m going to let you jump in, Marco, is that one, he said, okay, the reason why black people are not coming to the white churches is because of the culture of recreating the church like themselves. You know, they’re not willing to change, kind of just paraphrase what he’s saying. I guess one thing I would say that the argument can be made are the same thing as true for the black churches. They’re not willing to change their music or their culture or anything to attract more white people to the churches. And I guess it’s true, of course, for the white churches, quote unquote. Again, they shouldn’t be white churches, black churches or whatever the case may be. But we have to live with the reality of what we have. You know, is the white preacher going to change his style of preaching to a more, you know, where you want to call it Ebonic, Brenty, even want to call it dynamic preaching rather than a more standing behind the pulpit, kind of more organized preaching. Maybe not, you know, so I don’t know, maybe we at the impasse here because no one is willing to change, no one is willing to say, hey. I’m going to be the one who’s decided, or is this a total acceptance? Because some of it might be preference, as he said, but some of it is probably deeply rooted in doctrines and belief, like music. Music is a big thing because… The black churches, the music is nothing compared to most white churches, even just staying within the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church realm. When you talk about the music, when you look at some of the music coming out, even from the church, Pastor Mike is a member of, compared to our Independent Fundamental Baptist churches, the white Independent Fundamental Baptist Church is no way going to accept that music. Hell would have to freeze over first because some of these white churches accept that music. And they probably not going to accept the white church music neither. And maybe hell would have to freeze over for them to accept it. And it’s a broader topic, music is a broader topic, but I don’t know. Let me get your comment.

[Missionary Marco]

I know a preacher in Mississippi, not a big man, but he encouraged me. He was, I don’t remember what city he was in, and they had this van decked out to reach Sunday school, well, to reach children. And he knew where the head of the ***** was in a certain neighborhood. And so this little man in a short sleeve shirt and a tie knocks on his door and he tells him, we want to reach your kids and we want to tell them about Jesus. We’ve got this man to be able to do that with. I just want to ask your permission to do it if that’s all right with you. And this man was just. Not only can you come in here, but we’re going to send people out there to make sure nothing happens to you. So it was fantastic. He’s just a real dynamic man, little guy, but just big heart. And anybody would think, man, what are you doing? What are you thinking? And you talk about someone who doesn’t fit in. He would not fit in, but he just got it in his head. I’ve got to reach this community. The sad part of the story is that he was going with young people from his church. He was taking the youth from his church to go reach these inner-city kids. And the parents, obviously, a lot of them were getting nervous, particular kids winter. But I think there’s an illustration of a man who’s got his heart right. He’s thinking right. And so maybe there could have been a better way to do it. But in that community, if you want to talk to the boss, that’s who you talk to. And so the fact that he understood well enough with other people to understand you got to talk to the right people to get something done and you may not respect that thing and you certainly, no Christian should be for gang violence and all that stuff. But if you realize that it’s there, I mean, wouldn’t it be great for that gangster to realize he needs Christ? Obviously, if he’s seeing kids changed, that’s got to affect you at some point. Just like Perkins had every reason to get bitter and didn’t. maybe a little bit more of that. People are willing to go, if people see others going outside their comfort zone, kind of think that would be contagious, especially amongst Christians.

[Jay]

Yeah, they always say people don’t care how much you know until they see how much you care. I do think if we go with that genuine desire to see people saved and to minister to their particular needs, I’m not saying it’s going to be all peaches and cream, but it might go a long way to opening doors, you know, allowing people to be more receptive.

[MCG]

I will say this and then we’ll go into a break. In that same episode I’m talking about with Pastor Mike and I’m bringing it up a lot, but it’s kind of closely related to this episode. He mentioned something that I, on the surface, I think is very true. I’m not looking it up, but other churches, evangelical churches outside of the independent fundamental Baptist churches, seems to have figured this out. I don’t know if it is because it’s the music that they have compromised on. I don’t know if compromise is the right word or what, but if you go to other evangelical churches, this seems to be a lot more integrated than some of the churches, independent fundamental churches that Pastor Mike’s talk about. I don’t know what causes that, but maybe the formula is out there and we’re just ignoring it. What do you think?

[Missionary Marco]

I don’t know if the farm was out there and somebody, the grass always looks greener. Sometimes you think, oh yeah, they’ve got it all together. You go a little closer, you realize, man, these people are a mess. Maybe there are people who have it all together. But whether they do have it all together or not, it would be worthwhile to have a closer look. Because even if they do have some things wrong, they may have some things right. Like I said, most people in life aren’t good at more than one thing. And so if they’re doing something right, you know, I’m not talking about compromise or pragmatism, but I want my church to be the healthiest, the most Christ-like. And if there’s someone of a different stripe who’s, you know, mastered a part of that, I’d like to see what they’re doing.

[MCG]

Yeah. Amen. Definitely. Well, you’re listening to the Room of Embarrassed podcast. We’re sitting down with Missionary Marco and we’re talking about John Perkins and racial relations in the church. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

Are you looking for a consistent and reliable place to get all your Christian materials? Try ChristianBook.com. Started from humble beginnings in 1978, ChristianBook.com now offers a wide range of books, CDs, DVDs, homeschooling and church supplies, plus more. So whether you are a parent, a homeschooler, a pastor, or a lay person, ChristianBook.com can be a one-stop shop for all your needs. Click the link in the description section below and check out the vast array of Christian materials ChristianBook.com has to offer.

Okay, Brother Marco, Perkins saw that despite government legislation, the condition of blacks in Mississippi had not improved. Government legislation did not help. Why is that, do you suppose?

[Missionary Marco]

Perkins, in my reading of his, he didn’t really explain everything that was wrong with government intervention. Obviously, he obviously thought sometimes it was needed because some of the issues that he was dealing with were legal issues. But I know he talks about redistribution, but he’s very careful to make sure that when he talks about redistribution, it’s not communist or Marxist ideal. He said in one of his books, when I mentioned redistribution, people think that I’m about taking all the money from the rich and giving it to the poor. That wouldn’t help a bit. So he obviously saw that no government intervention often did Here are a few other things that he wrote. In the past, well-intentioned government programs designed to relieve the poor actually turned the poor into dependent cripples. They treated symptoms without touching causes. The poor then became addicted to the temporary relief offered by the welfare program and temporary relief stretched into permanent dependents. The incentive to solve the underlying social and economic problems was destroyed by the program that provided relief from symptoms. He also talked about the importance of the church in one of his books, restoring at-risk communities. He said the gospel, rightly understood, is holistic. It responds to people as whole people. It doesn’t just single out spiritual or physical needs and speak to those. Christian community development begins with people transformed by the love of God who then respond to God’s call and share the gospel with others through evangelism, social action, economic development, and justice. These groups of Christians start both churches and community development corporations, evangelism outreaches, tutoring programs, discipleship groups, housing programs, prayer groups, and businesses.

[MCG]

Yeah. Do me a favor. Look up something for me. Yeah. Maybe you can use an AI or something. Ask the AI, what problem has government ever truly solved? Because to me, you know, Perkins statements say, despite government legislation, the condition of black in Mrs. B had not improved. One, I think government is a one trick pony. What would the government do to improve anything? Is they going to throw money at it? That’s basically ultimately what they’re going to do. True, they might get a contractor to come in or get some kind of contract to manage something here, do something there. But ultimately, the government is going to throw money at it, hoping that maybe if they throw enough money in it, someone will come up with idea probably to fix it. But what does government fix? Look at California with the homelessness issues. Billions and billions of dollars, even just under Gavin Newsom alone, trying to fix this thing. And apparently every year it seems like the homelessness problem in California is getting worse. And it seems like the only people pockets are being fattened are those that work for whatever company that is contracted to help end homelessness. Reagan who said the seven most dangerous words in the English language is Hi, I’m from the government. I’m here for help or something like that. Sure. I’m not surprised that Perkins saw that conclusion because I don’t think the government has ever fixed anything.

[Jay]

ChatGPT disagrees with you, MCG. It gives me it says that a few strong examples of government legislation that led to actual good outcomes is the lead and gasoline, the US Clean Air Act amendments. seat belts, the laws for seat belts, smoking in public places, the Montreal Protocol of 1987 that addressed ozone depletion and child labor laws.

[MCG]

And yet the black population is basically the same according to Perkins.

[Jay]

Okay.

[MCG]

Because the government instituted seat belts, black people now are no longer in poverty.

[Jay]

So the government is great at legislating things that have to do with, you know, the environment in terms of like, you know, lead and gasoline or child, you know, things that have to do with public safety. But when it comes to social issues that have to deal with the human condition, the heart. Government is impotent. Right. It’s completely different.

[MCG]

Yeah. I think also the problem is that the church has ceded his responsibility to the government. That’s one of the issues as well, because who should be fixing these inner cities issues? What is Mississippi or Ferguson or, you know, Cleveland, Ohio or downtown LA or whatever the case may be. I would argue it should be the church, but the church has ceded that responsibility. Again, an argument approval is the community and not everybody going to the church. But I think at times, you know, we’re not going to see the government solve it because the government has a hammer and everything look like a nail to the government and everything they’re going to do is that let me, you know, throw more money towards this problem and the money never fix it. Yeah. Any two cents, Marco? I know I kind of went on a rant there.

[Missionary Marco]

No, I think that’s interesting that It’s easy to solve a problem like seat belts or lead and gas just legislated. But we’re talking about his change of mind. Like there was, you know, part of the reason that these places were so impoverished where Perkins was working was racism, not directly, indirectly. And there was just a lot of poverty as well. Just there was no industry there, no opportunity. And yeah, the government, you know, they could put people on welfare, but They couldn’t create an industry where those people could have meaningful work.

[Jay]

So then the question then becomes, okay, if the government can’t deal with the human condition, if the government is impotent to deal with the human condition, then what exactly is Perkins suggesting that we do here? Now, I know that in your paper you mentioned the three Rs. Can you tell us what those 3 Rs are and how they relate to missions in the church today and how the church might be missing the mark in light of those 3 Rs?

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah, he came up, I think he came up with his early honors, I think he was still in the 70s. He came up with three Rs, relocation into a needy community. He called that turning statistics into neighbors, reconciliation across racial, social, cultural, and economic barriers, and redistribution of resources equitably, not through welfare or handouts, but by training the poor in vocational and management skills.

[MCG]

You know, to some degree, and this is going to sound crazy, but to some degree, I will agree to that type of reparation. If it is to train them to take care of themselves in terms of a trade or a career or whatever the case may be. But, and again, I can’t really pick on Perkins because Perkins lived it. For you to give up your home, your nine bedroom home in California, which to today is well over a million bucks, depends on where in California it is, and move back into the inner cities of Mississippi. Well, he did relocate. But as a black man, that’s commendable because I can guarantee you Perkins is rich because how many black families would say, hey, you know what? I love my people so much that I’m going to give up suburbia America and I’m going to move in the inner cities to be with black people so that I can reach them with the gospel commendable. But most black was going to say, hey, I don’t want to be in my living room hiding behind my couch because bullets are flying because somebody’s doing a drive-by. I don’t want to be able to always have to check and make sure that my car door is locked or my front door is locked because it’s liable that someone is going to come in. I don’t want it so that someone going to take my kid’s bike just because they forget to bring it into the garage one night. A lot of black people looking at that, as I said earlier, I tried to get out. Perkins encouraged them to go back in. That’s a level of faith that I don’t think you’re going to find in a lot of black people. There’s a few there that would do it. I met a pastor. I think he has like 5 kids and he was going back to where he grew up, you know, and he has a powerful testimony. If you see him, he has tattoo all down his neck and everywhere and stuff like that. And he was going to start a church. I think it was in New Jersey, what the inner cities of New Jersey. And I commend him. We had Pastor Mike in episode 18. I’m sure he can mention some of the COBA churches, but it’s really not going to find a lot of, again, I’m not even talking about white people, but black people itself who wants to go back?

[Missionary Marco]

Sure.

[MCG]

So the relocation part, I don’t know.

[Missionary Marco]

That certainly takes surrender. That’s the one, what Perkins said is, he talked about a lot of factual things, like a lot of the inner cities, they’ve got these gentrification projects. And so all of a sudden, what used to be a ghetto or a slum turns out to be a trendy part of town and he said those places can be places where you do have that interconnection between you know the little bit more affluent people and those who aren’t you know those who used to be in the neighborhood or in the community or in the outlying areas So he sees opportunities there for relocation.

[MCG]

But yeah, but you use that.

[Missionary Marco]

You gotta be close to the people.

[MCG]

But use that dirty word though, gentrification is looked down upon here because gentrification is that the white folks come in and the black people leave. Or if you ask Michelle Obama is the reverse, when they come in, then no, the white people leave. So again, I don’t, I’m not getting it on a perk thing, but I pray that it is that way. As you say, it takes surrender.

[Missionary Marco]

Sure.

[MCG]

I remember during the mission conference, we were singing, Lord, send me anywhere.

[Missionary Marco]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Only go down with me. And I stopped singing because I realized, do I really want the Lord to send me anywhere? Only go down with me just for my own conviction. Am I willing? I pray that I am, but can I say that I am? I really don’t know. In my own strength, no. Anyways.

[Missionary Marco]

No, that’s good.

[Jay]

But part of that too, it’s interesting, we always say that if the Lord is not God of a society, then man takes his place and then we are all living to the whims of whatever man wants. And so we have to realize that the people that we are against ideologically and spiritually because they have a religion that’s anti-Christ, they’re doing the exact same thing. They’re just doing it from their particular, like all of the efforts that BLM is doing in order to shame people to giving up more of their worldly possessions, their money, their properties, their whatever, in the cause of black this or black that. It’s no different from what Perkins is talking about. The difference is that we are presenting people with Christ.

[Missionary Marco]

Sure.

[Jay]

I guess what I’m saying is they’re trying to address the same issue. They’re just…

[Missionary Marco]

It is, yeah, it’s interesting. A different worldview.

[Jay]

A different worldview that they’re doing it from. And so Christians absolutely have to surrender when the Bible tells us go ye into all of the world and preach the gospel. You mentioned in your paper, Brother Marco, how it’s interesting how Christians are willing to go do missions all the way out in Timbuktu somewhere and we’re willing to send money for someone to go do missions all the way over there, but here in our inner cities or in our less privileged places, if you want to call them that, oh, we’re unwilling to go. That’s a different thing. That’s for somebody else. I don’t need to go and disciple those people. I’ll give you money. You can go, but I don’t need to relocate. I don’t need to invest. It’s easy to throw money at a problem, right? We’re talking about government throwing money at a problem. It’s easy for Christians to just put money in tithing and the offering and say, hey, you go. You know, missions conference. Yeah, you go. But me, what about me? Do I have to go? Nah, maybe not me. Not me. Sure. You know, but you can go. It’s the same issue, whichever way we look at it. But I can understand also that some churches would look at what Perkins is trying to say and kind of have an ick factor because he’s saying things like social service, social actions. And it sounds a lot like the heavy word of social justice or this or the other, that they might listen to what he’s saying and think, hey, wait a minute, we don’t want to go down that path. Can you help us understand, Brother Marco, what did Pastor Perkins mean when he’s talking about social service, social actions, and how is that different from what the leftists and other ungodly people are trying to push on society today?

[Missionary Marco]

I’ll talk about that one thing I just wanted to touch on that we kind of went by. Perkins was so burdened that Christianity, churches weren’t changing the society. And I think as a Christian, it really should bother us. And this is something that he mentioned in one of his books. He mentioned some data from the Barna Group. It says in 2006, there were approximately 101 million Americans professed to be born again. However, crime and immorality in America continue to rise to unprecedented levels. religion is up and morality is down despite its growth the church is not bringing healing to our nation it is not penetrating our communities with a message that transforms and he never said this but I have to I mean I can’t help is that true like are these professed Christians Christians like how can you say that a third of a nation is Christian and crime is up and immorality is up and so There’s something suspicious about what passes through Christianity today, or at least in 2006 when that statistic was given, if those two things can be true, that there’s more churches, there’s more Christians, and immorality and crime is up as well. I totally think it’s valid to be wary of social gospel. The gospel is the Bible truth. And Perkins talked about that. I think maybe I’ll talk about that later as well. And there is right to be suspicious. We have to be Bible people if you’re a Christian. If you don’t have the Bible to stand on, then just join some do-gooders club. So you should be I don’t know if suspicious is the right word, but you should be sure that what you are doing is in fact gospel based, that you’re helping people. But the early church helped people, Christ helped people. The disciples were about helping people. I mean, how can you love people if you’re not willing to help them? That’s not love. If all you do is have words, love has to show itself somehow to our community, to our church people. And so I think Perkins really exemplified that. He found solutions to problems that his church people were facing, that his community was facing. He really helped people.

[MCG]

Yeah, as I think about that, that’s quite interesting because you said 2006, this is 2026. So 20 years later, we are seeing at least violent crimes are down in the US, but argument could be made for several reasons. One of the reason could be because they’re now probably reclassifying what’s a crime and what’s not in some states where now you have to steal more than $1,000 worth of something for it to be even registered.

[Missionary Marco]

A felony, sure.

[MCG]

Right. And also it might be because Trump has unleashed the heavy hand of the National Guard in cities like DC and other places where we think crimes come down. Also, it could be the fact that guns are more popular among regular civilians today in terms of being able to carry and kind of be a pushback in crime. But all of that is social. None of it is basically spiritual because as much as Trump can do, at the end of the day, he doesn’t change the spiritual nature of the country. That’s the church. And going back to what Jay is saying, true, I agree what she’s saying, but the problem is that we can’t even get our own church people get up on a Saturday morning to go knock on their neighbor’s door. And you want to tell me they’re going to go into the inner cities where they’re probably going to be mogged or whatever the case may be, they’re not going to go. And is that because they’re not necessarily they don’t care about the souls, is that they’re fearful. And they’re willing to surrender? There’s a fear factor there. And if it was easy, or if it was There will be a lot more Marcos in this world who will give up the comfort of Canada and go to Uruguay. There will be a lot more who will give up the comfort of the suburbia and go into the inner cities. But again, I’m not even saying this right. I’m just looking at human nature. Save or not, a lot of folks going to say, you know what? As you say, it’s much easier. I will give $500 per month to somebody to go because he won’t even register in my budget rather than me taking myself and my kids into that environment. Not saying it’s right, but that’s the reality. And to some degree, I have to, again, as I say, I have to look into myself and say, am I willing to go? I can sit here behind the comfort of my microphone and point fingers, but I have to ask myself, am I willing to go? I pray that I will, but in my flesh within myself, I can’t say I am. So I guess there’s two ways to look at it. And I would even say, if you’re a Christian, you’re listening to this, start in your own community.

[Missionary Marco]

Sure.

[MCG]

Start witnessing there because most of us don’t even witness there. So why would we go into the inner cities of Baltimore and Ferguson, Missouri? They’re not because they’re not comfortable going to their neighbors. They’re not going to be comfortable going there. They would applaud Marco when he come around and tell them, how dangerous it is in Uruguay and how much church he planted and how many people got saved. But are they going to go and replace Marco? Probably not. And it’s unfortunate, but I think it’s the unfortunate truth that we’re looking at there.

[Missionary Marco]

Well, there needs to be some zeal, that’s for sure. I mean, you look at the early church and they had a fire in them to do something and there’s lots to do.

[MCG]

How would you convince a young family, Marco, to give up the comfort and safety of, since you’re Canadian of Canada, and go someplace else where they might, you know, as I’ve been hopping on, might not be as safe for their children as, would you say, hey, wait until your children are out of the home to do it? How would you convince them?

[Missionary Marco]

You know, I’d probably do it the way we do it today for missions conference. A lot of good churches preach, obviously giving permissions, but a lot of them preach going too. So I think It’s just the recognition that the mission field isn’t someplace far away necessarily. There’s a lot of needy places right in North America. Absolutely. I mean, not only the inner cities, but the northeast is needy. The northwest is needy. The far north is very needy. So there’s a lot of opportunities to serve. I mean, even the Navajo reservation, I mean, there’s an opportunity there. There’s places where there’s a lot of needs that aren’t the most comfortable. And that doesn’t mean serving Florida is uncomfortable. And you talk about safety. People need to count the cost. And it may be romantic to say, I’m going to do this. It doesn’t matter. I’m brave or what have you. But people have to be sensible too, whether they do have kids or not. Sometimes it’s better to go. Sometimes it’s better to wait. It’s always best to be prepared. So all those things need to be weighed. But just the impetus and the pressure and just the vision of showing that there is a huge need, there’s something that needs to be done. And so there’s a lot of good that are probably preaching this message already. They’re just not preaching it towards needy places like church planting in inner cities or dark places within the continent itself.

[MCG]

Right. Well, as Christ admonished, you know, for he the Lord of the harvest because the laborers are indeed few. All right, well, how can we reach marginalized communities with the gospel? Let’s wrap it up with that. You know, I think we have talked about it and gone around it, but if you can nail it down, how did Perkins reach marginalized communities? How are you reaching marginalized communities? And what can a broad audience take away? Give them some kind of a nugget that they can take away, say, hey, this is something you can at least try to reach marginalized communities around you.

[Missionary Marco]

Well, I’ll finish then with what he wrote. He wrote a foreword to a book called Confronting Injustice Without Compromising Truth. And he came up with four things that differentiate what the world calls justice or social justice with what biblical justice is or social services, something, because they’re different. Obviously, one talks about an oppressor, an oppressed class, and the other one talks about, you know, Christ’s kingdom and Christ’s gospel. So those are two very different gospels, two very different kingdoms for sure. One is Christ focused, one is Christ less. The first thing that Perkins said was the first thing that you need to do is you’re going to look for justice and reach these inner cities and you need to start with God. That may be pretty simplistic for us as Christians, but people who want justice, if you don’t have God in the first place, then you could be standing up for anything. You could be misled and trying to defend or look for justice in an unjust way. Because we have to align ourselves with his purpose, his will. his mission to let justice roll down and bring forgiveness and love to everyone on earth. God is bigger than we can imagine. The problem of injustice is a God-sized problem. We don’t start within first. Whatever we’re seeking, it ain’t justice. And then the second thing he said is be one in Christ. Christian brothers and sisters, black and white, brown, rich and poor, we are family. We are one blood. We are adopted by the same father, saved by the same son, filled with the same spirit. In John 17, Jesus prays for everyone who would believe in him, that people from every tongue, tribe, and nation would be one, that oneness is how the world will know who Jesus is. If we give a foothold to any kind of tribalism that could tear down that unity, then we aren’t bringing God’s justice. Thirdly, preach the gospel. The gospel of Jesus’ incarnation is perfect life, His death is our substitute, and His triumph over sin and death is good news for everyone. It is multicultural good news. In the blood of Jesus, we are able to truly see ourselves as one race, one blood. We’ve got to stop playing the race game. Christ alone can break down the barriers of prejudice and hate we all struggle with. There is no power greater than God’s love expressed in Jesus. That’s where we all find real human dignity. If we replace the gospel with this or that man-made political agenda, then we ain’t doing biblical justice. Fourth and finally, teach truth. Without truth, there can be no justice. And what is the ultimate standard of truth? It is not our feelings. It is not popular opinion. It is not what presidents or politicians say. God’s word is the standard of truth. If we’re trying harder to align with the rising opinions of our day than with the Bible, then we ain’t doing justice. And so those four points that he gave were pretty good. It’s necessary to seek to help people, but we need God’s word. We need God if we’re going to do it.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Amen.

[MCG]

Definitely. Well, we’ll leave it right there. And, you know, as we said earlier, we may not be of the same stripe in terms of John Perkins, but I think based on what I know of him now, I think he did a good job in race relation with the church.

[Missionary Marco]

I think so too.

[MCG]

Richard Marco, thank you so much for joining us on the Removing by Race podcast.

[Missionary Marco]

Thank you. God bless.

[Jay]

Thank you so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Make sure to rate us everywhere you listen to podcasts, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Stitcher. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us, to support this podcast, or to learn more about Removing Barriers, go to removingbarriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.