Episode 96

In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we have pastor Tommy Wakefield joining us again. You will recall from episode 93 that he is one of the founders of the Soul-winning App and a pastor in his local area. This time around, pastor Wakefield share the story of how Jesus saved him, even though he grew up in a religious household. You will hear about the less-than-ideal beginnings of his family life and how the Lord worked everything for his ultimate good: the salvation of his soul. Many people think it is easy for the religious to be saved, but experience clearly teaches this is not always the case. Join us on this episode to discover how the Lord Jesus Christ removed Pastor Tommy Wakefield’s barriers, and how He is currently using him to reach other lost souls in his area.

I had a hard time sleeping. Oh, wow. It was just one verse, just weighed heavy, and I just tossed and turned. Because up to this point, I mean, I was in church my whole life, considered religious. I was going to Bible college, but void of repentance.

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay. And I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

This is episode 96 of the Removing Barriers podcast, and this is the 26th in the series of how were your barriers removed. And in this episode, we’ll find out how Tommy’s barriers were removed when he came to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi, this is Jay. MCG, and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to Removing barriers.net and subscribing to receive all things Removing Barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net/donate. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the Cross.

Tommy, welcome back to the Remove Embarrass podcast, and thank you for joining us once again. Thanks for having me once again. It’s an honor. Great. And if you want to learn about swap, we did episode 93 where we interviewed Tommy all about the soul winning app that he and a friend co found.

All right, Tommy, let’s get into it. Tell us, what state or country were you born in? I was born in the Midwest. Michigan. Precisely. So grew up up there in Michigan most of my life. Kind of off a little like tourist town, like a vacation town right along Lake Michigan. And so, yeah, I mean, that’s where we grew up. Went to Grand Rapids quite a bit. So did the population double during the summer and shrink in half during the winter? Yeah, it was really different from summer to winter. Population wise and activity wise, summertime, I just avoid going downtown because it’s just tourists, people wandering around for the beach and stuff. And it just gets annoying when you live there.

You said we could you describe what type of family you were born into and how you grew up? Yeah, so grew up parents were divorced before I really even remember. I don’t necessarily remember our dad ever being there, but we visited him a lot. So later on we would go up and we would visit him on weekends and stuff. So parents were divorced, mum got remarried, and we lived with our mom most of the time, me and my two brothers. So they’re three boys, and mom got me remarried, so we had a step dad, and that’s where we lived most of our time. And then we just visited our dad every other weekend. So a lot of dynamics there could go into a lot more about that, but yeah, that’s in a nutshell.

What it’s like. Yeah, if you’re comfortable going to that. How did that affect you as a little boy coming up in terms of shaping your world view, shaping the way you think about life in general? Yeah, very good questions because that stuff does shape us, whether we think it does or not. It shapes kind of all of that. So our dad left we found this out later, but our dad left our mom for a man. Oh, wow. So he came out and he told us later when we were older finally, why he left. And growing up, his kids, we would just visit his house. It was fun. It was fun growing up and visiting our dad. That’s kind of where we got away with lots of stuff. He was the fun parent. Not to say that our mom wasn’t, but that’s just kind of how it was. He didn’t have to take care of us all the time, so he got to have a little more fun with us on the occasions. So he left before I remember it. So growing up, going and visiting our dad and living with our mom and having the stepdad as really, I guess you could say we had two dads father figure roles. All of us did. And even each one of us, me and my two brothers, it all shaped us. You can’t necessarily say that the circumstance alone shapes you, but also your perspective on it can shape you, too, because each one of us have grown up different. And so I think what I’ve grown to see about the situation. The one dad versus the other. Is we got to have a lot of fun with our real dad. And he loved us and super nice guy and everything. And he does love us. And he does care for us. And then our stepdad also loves us and cares for us. But both of them express it vastly different ways. Our step dad would have been more stern. He was a Marine, so he’s more stern, disciplined, and I would say I developed really our work ethic from our step dad, just in the discipline and doing the things, you know, you just don’t want to always do. Not to say we didn’t get any of that from my real dad, but I’m just grateful for really both having had the experience of really both sides of the spectrum and really realizing that it’s nice to have fun, but I don’t know, I’m having a hard time summarizing that.

I guess there’s a serious part of life as well. It’s not all fun and it’s not all rigidity. My wife is a former Marine, but I’m nothing like that, though. I was one of those people that kind of stumbled into the core and stumbled out. So the rigidity and the discipline and the structure of the Marine Corps while I was in it, it shaped me, and I was very disciplined. But when I got out, I went back to my typical type B, fly by the seat of your pants, very improvisional type personality. I’m very much a free spirit, whereas compared to my husband, for example, he’s very much very disciplined and tidy and all of that sort of thing. So I was a Marine, but it didn’t quite stick, as it seems that you say that it stuck for you. But you also mentioned, though I wanted to ask you why you were speaking, but I didn’t want to interrupt. You said that your father left before you could really remember it, but then you also said that you and your brothers experienced it differently. You didn’t mention how old you are, not how old you are, but in terms of your brethren, like, who was born first and who was born second. My question is, do you have a different perspective in what happened from what they experienced because they were older and they remember more, or how has it shaped you differently? Yeah, I would say that probably has something to play in it because I’m the middle. So one older brother then my other brother is younger, so not much younger. I want to say she was pregnant, actually, so he wasn’t even born, and older brother was a little older, whereas I was probably right at the moment where I could start remembering those things. But I’m sure mentally, I just probably blocked it out and I don’t remember it. Got it. But my older brother would have remembered it probably completely. And so that probably has shaped his perspective and his experience and all of that differently.

Okay, now, I’m sure we’re going to get into this later on in the conversation, but could you describe what your life was like before salvation? When you describe your family, I understand that you’ve already set the stage that it wasn’t quite the norm. Your father left when you were very young, so the dynamic would have been quite different from, say, a family where the two parents are in the home. But would you describe what your life was like before salvation? Yeah, it was religious. Okay. In the church. So we grew up in church. Our real dad and our mom didn’t go to church, so there was a moment and a shift kind of right around that time. And then after he left, our stepdad came in and we started going to church. So for the most part, as long as I can remember and there’s probably a very short period of time before that we were in church, so I would say it’s very religious, but it took me till I came to Bible college to get saved, say it was 2011, so I was 21 years old.

Yeah. So growing up in church, a lot of times you probably won’t even remember the first time you heard the Gospel. Was this a gospel preaching church where they believe the Bible and preach against sin? If so, describe the first time you heard the gospel? Yeah. So I couldn’t even attempt to recall the first time I heard the Gospel. First time I realized the gospel very well could have been at college. Like, the implications of it and the scope of it, and it fully clicked. Now, the churches I grew up in, they were Bible preaching churches. Oh, wow. We heard about Jesus, we heard about the blood, we heard about what it meant to be saved. And so just the personal application and the realization of all of that I don’t think really sank in until I was at college and what I battled with. And I’ll tell you, just kind of my internal battle growing up in church, my battle really was with who I was trusting, because growing up, I had no recollection of being saved. And this is a term we would have heard in church a lot are you saved? Or you need to be saved or you need to trust Christ? Very gospel preaching churches, heard it plenty of times, but I had no recollection of it other than my mom telling me that I was saved. And then she would tell me the story, a story of which I didn’t remember at all. And so what I was doing, and not necessarily to downplay my mom and her impact in that, but I just didn’t remember the story. And so I was kind of battling this and weighing this, trusting her or trusting Christ or trusting God for my salvation. And so here I kind of had that battle in the whole scope of who Jesus is and the gospel and my sin and all of that just didn’t really set in, and I didn’t like my eyes weren’t open. I just didn’t realize it until college.

No, of course, I’m a father as well. I imagine that when you look back in that situation where you were struggling, where you trust your mom or should you be trusting in Jesus, I’m sure you probably heals and don’t want to repeat that same mistake with your kids. How do you go about doing that? Because I think that’s one of the struggles of many parents raising kids in a Christian home or Christian environment when they make a professional faith, do you tell them, hey, remember you are saved? How do you shepherd your kids? Hard, I guess it’s a question. And avoid that same mistake? Yeah, that is hard. I feel like the key word, if I want to summarize it down to one word, is balance. And the same way God did with us in the sense that he just lets us he placed those things in order and he gave us his word. He gave us repercussions for sin. He put all those things into place, and then he gave of Himself. He showed love and compassion, but yet he just stands there like the prodigal Son and just waits for His Son to come. And I think in a practical sense. I think just trying to do this myself. I can’t say I’m perfect at it. It’s just let them make the decision, let them ask about it, talk about it. It’s not like we never talk about the Bible and we never talk about Jesus. We just got to hope that they ask about it. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying we talk about it and then we talk about sin and the cross and how Jesus died for our sins and talk about those things without like giving a child leading questions because are you a sinner? Or questions that are really leading can be we can get whatever we want. We can get the answer we want out of a child with leading questions. So the difference is, I guess, not forcing them to a decision that we want them to make, but rather just letting them giving them information and letting them realize it. And I can’t say I’m perfect at it. Sure, none of us are.

You described the fact that perhaps it was in college that you came to like actually sunk in. Even though you grew up hearing the gospel and hearing genuine calls to repentance and calls to salvation. It didn’t really sink in until college. That’s when the light went off in your head and you turn from your sin and the Lord saved you. And you talked about the barrier being not knowing. Who are you trusting? Is it your mom’s story or is it Christ? And going through that, how are those barriers removed ultimately? Was it a sermon that you heard or was it a question that you asked your mom and she gave you an answer that made the light go off? What actually happened to make the barriers that you’re describing fall away and it cleared the path for you to actually receive the gospel and be saved by it? How are those barriers removed? Yeah, so I would say just in general, leading up to the moment was preaching in general. Okay, there’s a lot I think that kind of unfolded and kept knocking at the door and breaking down those walls and weakening the walls up to the moment where really just one verse in general, I had a hard time sleeping. It was just one verse, just way heavy. And I just tossed and turned cause up to this point. I mean, I was in church my whole life, considered religious, I was going to Bible college. But void of repentance at this point, void of just turning. I mean, that’s what repentance is, turning away from what I was trusting in and turning to Christ. And so the verse that really just way heavy was from Matthew, chapter seven, where Jesus tells the story of there will be many that come into him in that day and say, lord, Lord, have we not prophesied Thy name? And then Thy name cast out devils and then Thy name done many wonderful works. And he’ll respond to them and say, depart from me. I never knew you. And there’s so much packed in that one verse. I mean, these were religious people. These were people who cast out demons in the name of Jesus, did many wonderful works in the name of Jesus. And he’s going to tell them, I don’t know you depart from me, worker of iniquity. And I mean, that kind of hit home. I don’t even have those things to boast about religiously. And aside from that, I just needed repent and I need to turn to Christ, stop trusting in my own understanding, in my own ways, and turn. And so I did. And it was just in bed. I just laid there in bed and I said, I’m done. And I just turned that night. Funny. What the Lord spoke to me about after that was because at this point, I was even baptized. Prior to that, I was baptized in church because all the other teenagers were doing it was kind of a thing. So I did it. And immediately after that, the next message that I heard, I don’t even think it was about baptism, but the Lord just spoke to me and said, you need to be baptized. And that’s humbling when everybody thinks you’re saved and you’re in Bible college, and it’s humbling to walk down and surrender and just identify with baptism. So I battled with that for a few weeks or months or so, and then I finally just broke down and did that. So I would say Scripture. Scripture is the thing that helps tear down those walls.

Yeah. Curious question because I, too, went to Bible college. Christian college. And most of the folks that come here are either forced to be there because the parents want them to be there, or I remember one young lady that was on my college, she was literally engaged, and her parents say, you have to go to college for one year before you can get married. And she came for one year and she turned 19 and she didn’t come back and she got married. But I’m curious for you as an unsafe person, why a Christian college, especially one that preaches and teaches the truth, why would you choose the college with it? Your parents saying, hey, Tommy, you have to go to this college, or did you actually choose that college while still being unsaved? I would say it had a lot probably to do with the same reason I got baptized before I was saved. Just a peer pressure thing. Other than the fact that I didn’t really know what I wanted to do after high school, I wasn’t a school person. I hated school. The classroom setting is not for me, and I just like to be doing things and it’s just not for me. So I didn’t really know what I wanted to do after high school. And the last two years of my high school we were a really good Bible preaching church and of course we went to camp, team camp and at the team camp they preached on surrendering to full time ministry and I think that was very heavily just peer pressure, influence. And so I talked with my pastor when I got home and he just suggested to go to Bible college and gave a few suggestions and West Coast was one of them and it was the furthest away from home in California and sounded interesting to me. So that’s what I did.

You’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We’re sitting down with Pastor Tommy Wakefield. I’ll be finding out how where his barrier is removed. We’ll be right back.

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two Corinthians 517 says, therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away. Behold, all things are become new. After salvation, what were some of the changes that were evident in your life? I would say desire and really battling with really my internal battle went from struggling with salvation to just the desire to know Him more and know Christ more and follow Him and study Him and be like Him more. Just that shift? Yeah, I would say that internal focus shifted and then of course, my life, he kind of guided and directed my steps along the way and led us to where we are now. When you describe that internal shift. That internal focus and the desire that you didn’t have before is now there. Do you think it’s possible to have that desire to know the Lord. To follow the Lord. To read the Word. To just drink Him in. But then you’re also having to battle the very practical. Like for example. If you have a hunger for the Lord and a hunger for His Word. But you haven’t established the habit of say. Reading the Bible or studying the Bible or prayer or things like that. Do you think it’s possible for new Christians to struggle with that or was it something that it was an automatic flip of the switch? You went from not really having a desire to read a word to just an instant flip and the habits were there, everything was there and you were just in the Word all the time going after it? Or was it more of a gradual sort of laying down the foundation to get the habits in place to actually follow through on your new desire. Yeah, I think each individual, it’ll probably manifest itself a little bit differently in my sense, since I grew up pretty religious. The external of religion kind of was there, but it was the internal that was missing. It’s like a hypocrite or a pharisee that Jesus just called them whited sepulchers. They look good on the outside. Sure, I could read my Bible, sure, I could pray, and I knew how to in public, but it was just dead inside. And that’s why to me, that internal shift and that internal focus really was the highlight because the external, the things that are preached we shouldn’t do in church. The duty of it all to an extent was there, but just with the wrong reason. That makes sense. And I can’t say entirely it was there, but in a shallow way, it was there. Right.

So describe that phone call for us. When you tell your mom that you actually got saved after all these years, when she think that you were actually saved, was this a phone call or sit down. How did you break the news to your mom? I don’t know if I told my mom. Oh, wow. Yeah. I really, honestly don’t know if I’ve told her my testimony in that sense. I’ve just never really been the type of person that just opens up about myself. There’s plenty of people in my life hold my testimony in such a way that I’m telling you on the podcast, that’s not me. I don’t know. Are you a more introverted person? You sound like you might be that way. Yeah, most definitely. Growing up, anytime I would speak, it just kind of gives you a quick little glimpse into it. Anytime I would speak as a child or a youth, people would just kind of pipe in and say, I didn’t even know he could talk. I just didn’t talk. Oh, wow. Well, I guess you can share this with them and they will actually know you can talk. Yeah. I remember the first time I preached in my church after coming home from Bible college. I heard that a lot and to an extent I was shy as a child, but I would say it’s more or less just because I never really had anything to say. But anyways, that’s a different story. Oh, yeah.

Do you think the way your barriers were removed? Think about your barriers of not knowing who they trust and stuff like that would be effective in reaching someone today. So think of their Tommy Junior growing up, similar background, similar personality. Do you think the way your barriers were removed would be effective in help to reaching them? Yeah, I would say absolutely the same reason in Matthew chapter seven, many will come into that day. I mean, at this point, that day he’s speaking of is still yet in the future. And so it could be people we know today that think they’re in the church, they’re going soul winning. You’re reading the Bible, maybe they’re pastoring or whatever it is. There are going to be many that come to him in that day and say, lord, we did all these things in your name. And he’s just going to say to them, I never knew you. And so the barrier of just the outward appearance, just outward appearance and just being willing to be honest with ourselves and humble ourselves and say, I need to trust the Lord, not myself or some other reason I lean in my own understanding, just trust the Lord, turn to Him. So I would say it’s a barrier that needs to come down in the church. If you were to talk to someone that is like you just described, like that person would be self deceived, would you say that? How would you go about witnessing to that person or talking to that person to help them see the fact that they’re not saved when they think they might be? They have that external religiosity, but it doesn’t match the inside. Jesus calls them white at Sepal curse. They’re obviously self-deceived.

When you personally evangelize, what are some of the things that you do or that you say to help people like you’ve described with that particular barrier? See their need for the Savior, see their lost state? Yeah, the biggest thing is Scripture, and I would say probably equally as big of that is the Holy Spirit and just simply living like Christ and loving people like Him. So living with just a passion and a zeal for people, just the denial of self, the way we live. When people are watching us, they can see the realness of it, especially the closer they are to us and scripture and the Holy Spirit and time. Like with me, I was 21 years old. So it just takes the grace of God. Yeah, that’s it. It goes back to like with our children, we’d like to see them save, but in the end it’s their choice and we just do everything we can that we know how best. I don’t know if there’s a magic word, but there’s probably just some basic things like praying for people too. I think that’s probably a big thing. We neglect a lot when we kind of sense that there’s something missing there with that person or maybe we don’t and we just pray. Prayer, especially for others is a powerful thing.

So tell me, what are you doing personally in the area of evangelism to help others remove the barriers that you face? So are you going out soul women? What are you doing for personal soul women? Yeah. So pastoring preaching, and I would say no matter who’s there and in the service, whether they’ve been in church their whole life or not, I preach the gospel and I’ll even do it in such a way that compels them. You don’t preach from Matthew chapter seven that there are people in the church that need to be saved. People outside the church need to be saved. So within the church, evangelism, but then without will go door to door and we’ll invite people to church. We’ll witness the people when we’re out. I would say relationship building is something that I personally focus on with evangelism just because I just like to do that, build relationship with people so that you can speak the gospel more clearly than just a sales pitch. Right. I think that is very important because a lot of times, a lot of folks are not going to get saved at the door. I have been evangelizing at the door for many years and I’ve seen probably three people turn to Christ at the door. So relationship building is very important because you want to be able to go back and speak into their life more than once, you know, at the door many times, people in a hurry, they don’t want to hear you, you’re total stranger, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So it’s definitely great to build that relationship as well. Yeah, we did one interesting kind of outside the box outreach we did was a movie night at the church and we watched the TV series that chosen. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it or seen any of it. So we were kind of going through that and we had somebody come in because we were inviting the community and friends would bring friends, but we didn’t have a lot of community people come in other than this one guy. He came in and he started coming to him and watching them and I just let him come for a few weeks. I didn’t really like I talked with them and I engaged with them and got to know his name and encouraged them to come back. And I didn’t dive real deep into witnessing to him because I just didn’t know where he was. And so after a few weeks of coming, I just slowly, week after week, I sat down and chatted with him a little bit more, got to know him a little bit more. And then a few weeks, I want to say maybe it was three weeks after coming, three or four weeks, I sat down with them and I just went into the gospel with them and asked them some of those questions. And because I had spent the time and we were watching the movie, the conversation and witnessing to him went different. Honestly, it went different than I’ve ever experienced it before. When to somebody and the precision and the clarity, that just kind of what we were talking about, what the gospel was and who God is, all of those things were just so clear and crisp. And so that was probably one of the most unique times that I had shared the gospel, that it was just very clear just because of the circumstances surrounding it all.

Right, Tommy, we got to go into a little bit of a fun section, but before we do, tell the folks how they can reach you. Get a hold of swap and stuff like that. Before we go into that fun section. Yes, you can get a hold of me my cell phone number if you want. 616-914-8392, thesoulwinningapp.com is the website. It’s outreach software for your church if you want to organize your door to door outreach or follow up on prospects and stuff. Me and my buddy built that, and that’s theSoulwinningAPP.com. My email is: tommy@theswapp.io, you should be able to get a hold of me one way or another. That way great.

All right, so tell us, what is your favorite scripture verse? Favorite scripture verse? Luke 9:23 and 24. If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. That’s kind of been my life verse. I write that down on lots of stuff and I just like that verse. It just hits home with me because even in a religious sense, we can use that for selfish games, for selfish reasons, and I think just a true denial of ourselves and just what Jesus did, loving us, loving our neighbors like we love ourselves.

What is your favorite Biblical historical account? Some people call them Bible stories, but we call them that because we believe that everything in the Scriptures is very much real and true and actually happened, and the Bible is very true. So could you tell us what is your favorite Biblical historical account? Yeah, my favorite Biblical historical account is Genesis one through three. And I say that because I go back there all the time. When I’m witnessing to people anymore, I always find myself going back there. And to me, I think that’s probably the most important historical account, despite the fact that the mainstream will try and make that seem like a fairy tale. It’s so foundational, and so much of that is foundational to everything. And that’s so indicative of the culture of America today. Because one of the claim we make on this podcast is that America is more of an extracted 17 culture, more than extracted two, meaning that we are more of a Greek culture where we don’t even know God anymore than extracted two, where the folks at least have some semblance of who God is. And the fact that many times when we evangelize and we have to go back to that foundation should point us as Christians and leaders or whatever else we are in the community, that our culture has changed drastically. That’s why we have to go back. And I find myself going back to Genesis as well, if not directly in answering some sort of questions. You have to go back to show, hey, if God is who you say he is and he did what he said he did, then we have an obligation to Holy God. So, yeah, definitely.

What would you say is the most convicting scripture passage to you? Convicting message after seven? Yeah. Manny will come and say, look at all these things we did. And he’ll just say, I never knew. You incredibly sobering.

What about the most comforting Scripture passage for you? So, to me, the deity of Christ is the most comforting things in scripture, and really the proving of anything beyond nature is comforting. Because when we lean on our own understanding, science or logic or reason, those things are there and they’re there to fall back on here and there. But the supernatural beyond nature is, to me, that’s comforting. The virgin birth, that’s supernatural physically impossible. Jesus raising from the dead, not only he rose himself from the dead, creation, just so many things along the way proving that God is above and beyond this physical place we live in.

What is your favorite hymn of the faith? I’d rather have Jesus. My favorite. That’s a really great hymn, especially in light of everything in the world today. As the line said in the song, he’s so much more precious than any of those things, anything that anyone could possibly offer us. He’s infinitely more precious and more wonderful.

What is your favorite giant of the faith? From the Bible, I really want to say Jesus. He’s not a giant of the faith. He’s more than a giant. So you have to shoot the giant. I’d say Noah. Okay, that’s new. I don’t think we’ve ever had anyone say Noah before. Why is that? Because you know how when Jesus said if you have the faith the size of a mustard sheet, he could move mountains? Yeah. I’m still trying to move mountains, by the way. Yeah. Do you know of anybody that moved mountains with their faith? No, I’m not. Not physical mountains. Go ahead. Sorry, I interrupt. Well, now I wanted you to interrupt. Answer the question. Yeah. In Scripture, I don’t find anybody that moved mountains because of their faith except Noah, possibly. We don’t have any physical mountains changed during the flood, but the scientific theory is that the Earth changed during the flood and mountains changed. So because of his faith. Quite possibly the only one that’s ever moved mountains because of his faith. That’s a really

all right, Tommy, let’s wrap it up and tell us in general, how can barriers be removed in the life of others? Be honest with yourself and stop caring what people around you think, because they ain’t thinking about you. They’re thinking about themselves, most likely.

All right, well, Tommy Wakefield, thank you so much for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure and I’ve enjoyed it.

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us, to support this podcast, or to learn more about removing barriers, go to removingbarriers. Net. This has been the removing barriers. Podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.