Episode 80

Uruguay is a vibrant country in South America of nearly 3.5 million souls. Though different ethnicities exist, the people there are mostly homogeneous in culture, language, and in a general disposition of agnosticism (though 57% report to be Christian). It is ripe for the propagation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and in this episode of the Removing Barriers Podcast we talk with Marco, a missionary to Uruguay who is doing just that. After acknowledging God’s call on his life, Marco pulled up stakes and settled down there, engaging with the people about the gospel and taking down barriers to salvation through the power of Christ. Join us on this latest installment of the On the Mission Field series to hear about God’s work in Uruguay, and how he is using men like Marco to tear down barriers to salvation in the lives of Uruguayans all around him.

And the missionary needs to be a student of the people and realize that you may be saying something and they may not be getting it at all because they don’t have the lens you have and vice versa. The missionary may not have the lens they have. So sometimes that definitely happens. Two people may be looking at the exact same thing and not seeing it the same way. The Bible is right. It’s right for every culture. And I think there’s only one interpretation of the Bible, but we obviously all have different cultural contexts and different things will stand out to us. They won’t stand out to the next person. The missionary certainly needs to understand that as he deals with people. So there’s so many things that are different from a North American mind compared to a Uruguayan mind.

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

This is episode 80 of the Removing Barriers podcast, and this is a sixth in the series of on the mission field. And in this episode, we’ll be going on the mission field with missionary Marco to Uruguay,

Marco, it’s a pleasure and welcome to the Removing Barriers podcast. Well, thank you very much, MCG. Very pleased to be here with you. All right, you need to set up an argument before we get into this episode. Marco, you need to settled an argument between my wife, Jay and I. Is it Uru-gui or is it something else? How do you pronounce the country? I was right. In Spanish, it’s Uruwai. Okay. The G disappears. In Spanish, it’s Uruguay. So in English it’s just pronounced Uruguay. Oh, I didn’t realize we looked it up. We Googled it. Right. And it says in Spanish it’s Uruguay. And then in English you could say Uruguay. And I thought, well, I never grew up calling it Uruguay. I remember calling it Uruguay, but okay, so in English, Uruguay. In Spanish. Uruguay. Yeah, you’re right. It’s funny when you’re bilingual because you wonder how do you say things to people if I’m talking to someone in Uruguay and there’s an English word. So instead of saying it the way we would pronounce it, you pronounce it the way they would. You Butcher English, explaining English things to people. And so in English, you Butcher Spanish things like Uruguay. The English speakers got it.

Okay. I don’t know. We got that circle. Tell us about yourself, your family, your calling, whatever you’re comfortable sharing, certainly. I grew up in Canada to Christian parents. They actually emigrated to Canada the month before I was born. My mum was born in Northern Argentina. My dad was from Uruguay. And so they actually I don’t think it would be legal today to do what they did back then. My mom was eight months pregnant then, and we flew we came to Canada and they started a new life there. Things were not good politically in Argentina at the time, which is where they came from. And so they came, they became part of the culture. They took me regularly to Church. I went to public school. So, yeah, I had, I guess, immigrant parents, they speak with broken English, but I guess I look like a Canadian. I act like a Canadian. And so I was privileged to go to Church every Sunday. They would bring me went to public school. Things were fine. When I was in high school, I got away from the Lord for several years and I met a wonderful Lady I want to do right after I met her and went back to Church, started to let the Lord lead me in my life. And not too many years later, I just really wanted to serve the Lord more. And I thought submissions would be what God would have me to do. And through just a series of answered prayers and direction, we ended up in Uruguay. That’s the very short version.

Great. Okay. How long have you been on the mission field? We’ve been in your way for over three years now, so it hasn’t been very long. We’re privileged to get here before. I feel very sorry for people trying to travel and missionaries trying to get around and get to the field today with all the travel restrictions. So we got in November 2018. October 2018. We didn’t have to deal with any of the things that have to be dealt with now, so we’re quite fortunate.

Yeah, right. How long have you known the Lord? You said you got saved as a child, move away from the Lord in the late teens. How long have you known? A lot. Better yet, how long has the Lord known you? Certainly good way of asking that. I came to know the Lord. I don’t know exactly the date. I know some people I’d like to know the date, but I know that it happened. I was a very young person, four or five years old, with my Sunday school teacher. My parents, like I said, brought me to Church regularly. I’d heard the gospel. Who knows how many times? I heard many Bible stories. I grew up going to a Baptist Church, and they were very biblical and they were good people. They were really concerned for people and for souls. My Sunday school teacher asked me if I want to know Lord is my Savior, if I want to be saved, if I want to repent and accept Jesus. And at that point, I knew, even though I was a little boy and say, well, how bad could a little boy be? I knew that I was sinful and I would go to hell without trusting Jesus. And that was a motivator for me to accept Him. I knew I was wrong and I couldn’t be right without Him. And so my simplicity. I accepted Lord at a very young age, and that’s what I would trace my Salvation to. Amen. Praise the Lord. Don’t knock simplicity, because I know for myself I struggled for a long time wondering, Am I saved? Could I have been could I have been thinking that it was a lot more complicated than it was? And God says, you have the faith of a child and he will receive you. So, yes, not knocking simplicity there.

All right, so let’s spend the globe, Marco. And I’m sure most people would know where Uruguay is, but tell us where in the world is Uruguay. Uruguay is in Latin America. It’s on the East Coast. It’s between Brazil and Argentina. It is not a very big country at all. It was really created as a bit of a buffer state between those two Giants. It’s capital city is Montevideo. There’s about three and a half million inhabitants, and almost half of them live in the capital. So there’s quite a big division there between people who live in and around the capital and people who live in the country or outside of the capital. That’s kind of how the city’s divided, or rather the countries divided. You’re either from the capital or you’re not.

Now when you say it’s a buffer zone between those two countries where those two countries kind of at each other’s necks or something, or what do you mean by that? Well, it has mostly to do with, I guess, countries and Kings long ago, before all the revolutions and they had their independence. Brazil is a Portuguese and was a Portuguese state, whereas Argentina was a Spanish state. So Uruguay, being between them, created a bit of, I guess, a peaceful zone between them. Uruguay is a country that actually even its founder never wanted it to be founded. He would have been happy if it was part of Argentina, but it just worked out the way it was that developed into what it is today. So it’s kind of a strange, independent story, unique.

Tell us more about the people group in Uruguay. The majority of the people are of Spanish or Italian descent. There are other people, though. There are immigrants. During the first and Second World War, a lot of people from different parts of the world ended up here. Some Lebanese people, some Armenian people. All sorts of Eastern and Western European people ended up down there. Some Afro descendant people from Brazil ended up coming there as well. Today, at least, it’s a very monolithic culture. It’s basically very monocultural. There’s one language for the most part. If you go close to a border city, some of them will. Along with Brazil, you’ll speak more Portuguese there, but otherwise Spanish is spoken, or they’ll call it Castilian is spoken everywhere, similar to how it’s spoken in Argentina. They’re interesting in that they don’t really have an Indigenous population. It’s really the only Latin American country like that. So that’s kind of unique. There’s very little racial tension. People are basically and obviously, I would say that North America is pretty open to people of different people groups, but I would say there’s even more racism there than here in that sense. There’s other attention. There’s definitely financial classes that don’t exist in North America. But the racial tension is different. Year we won the very first World Cup, and so they’re very proud of that. Soccer is huge here. And so one of the players was Afro descendants, and so that for the longest time was never an issue in this country. There are other places where people are unequal, but race really hasn’t been part of it. As long as you fit into the culture and you speak the language and those sort of things, they accept you.

Sounds wonderful. Now you mentioned that most people have Spanish or Italian descent, although there’s some other heritage is mixed up in there. Does that mean that the overwhelming majority of the people there are probably, in terms of religious breakdown, probably come from a more Catholic background or what is the religious breakdown of Uruguay? Yeah. Going back as far as two generations, definitely there would be more Catholicism than anything else, although there’s more agnostic atheist people than anything. Oh, wow. There’s almost as many Catholics. Uruguay is a secular state. I think if it’s not the only one who is definitely the first in Western Hemisphere. Wow. There has always been a strong separation of Church and state, and it’s been because initially Catholics have always had a lot of influence in government and there’s been a lot of Masonic involvement in Uruguay. I think that fueled part of it. But people didn’t want the Catholic Church doing things like being in charge of cemeteries, being in charge of marriage, being in charge of civic things. And just over the years, there was a case a few hundred years ago where a non Catholic man who was an important man in the country died, but he wasn’t Catholic. And so the Catholic Church decided they wouldn’t bear him anywhere. He couldn’t be buried anywhere in the country. And so we’re talking back in the days where it’s horse and buggy and you’ve got a hot body and you got to deal with it. So different laws were enacted. So one by one, just the barriers to a secular state were removed to where it is now. So it is very much a secular state. People very much feel that religion and faith and all that is fine. They don’t have any trouble talking about that. But it’s a very personal thing. You keep it to yourself and we’ll be just fine. Oh, wow.

When did the Lord first burden your heart for Uruguay? We were going to a Church. Wow. I guess in the mid 2000s, somewhere around there, we were going to a Church serving there, doing everything we knew how to do as a family. My wife, myself, a little kids got dragged along everywhere. And then just in the midst of that, hearing different missionary stories, God really was burning my heart thinking, you know, first off, God called me to preach and I didn’t know what exactly that meant and what that would lead me to. And then I had an inkling that meant missions. And so I wanted to go on a survey trip and we ended up going just praying about that and ended up going on a two month trip to Argentina and Norway. And that was so good for my family. That was excellent. I didn’t know what I was doing. We were in a small Church. I didn’t have like a mission expert I could talk to or anything like that. So I just started Googling Baptist churches in Argentina and Uruguay and calling anybody I could emailing anyone I could and just met a bunch of people, tried to screen them. So I didn’t end up with any real strange people, but just went down there to see what I could see. And God really burned my heart during that trip. It just really broke both of our hearts just as a huge need as we went down there. And so we tried to go serve anywhere we could. I actually was in the construction business, so I even brought my coverage with me and a couple of few hand tools anywhere I am, I want to help in any way. I certainly want to talk to people about Jesus. That was my main thing. I wanted to know how receptive people are, what the response is, but also came there to work and just help anywhere we could because we were just grateful people would take us in and show us around because that’s as helpful as you want to be when you go to the mission field, even if you know the language. I mean, you’re really taxing somebody else to keep you, show you around. And so we were grateful for everybody who helped us with that. And that really burdened our heart. At the end of that trip, we weren’t exactly sure where God would have us specifically yet, but it changed our lives, our whole family’s life. Our kids were little. I think my daughter was about whether she was five or so, five or six, five years old, something like that, older than that, maybe eight. And my son was a year older. And it really was an impact for them because it was so different than what we were used to, than our normal life. And so we spent two months there. Our Church recommends at least that over a month anyway to go to a mission field because if you’re there any less than that, you’re not really absorbing things. You’re too much a tourist. You don’t really grasp how different it is. And so that was really good for us just spending that time there because we really started to absorb how different it all was. We weren’t at home anymore at all. And some of the changes we’d be in for. So we tried to take notes, make budgets, be as wise as we could, realizing we’re likely coming back to one of these places. We trust the Lord we are. And so we want to be as prepared as possible. Wow. Amen.

There’s a missionary to Albania that we know, and one of the things that he says is when people come to the mission field, particularly when Christians come to the mission field, he says the same thing that your Church and your pastor recommended. Don’t just go to these countries for a week or two. He says the taste of Olive Garden and all of the luxuries of the US are still on your tongue. You haven’t quite sure gotten into the culture yet to understand the need of the people and the magnitude of the work that needs to happen there. So I’m glad you had that experience. But if you were to talk to someone who perhaps might be considering where God might send them to the worker, to the field, what would you say to them? What are some things that you want folks to know or that they should keep in mind if they are called to serve the Lord in Uruguay? I guess what I think is important there’s very few believers in Uruguay. There’s very few born again. People in Uruguay think it’s the least evangelized country in the Western hemisphere. As far as I know, there’s less than 2% born again. And the most results I’ve seen has been through relationships with people I know. There are some places in the United States and other parts of the world where you can present someone a 15 minutes presentation of the gospel, and they’ve already had been mulling that over months and years, and they’ll accept the Lord. I haven’t had that happen here. But the people who have accepted the Lord, it’s been through just repeated visiting, really being a friend of them and just repeatedly showing them the gospel. The first person I led to the Lord here is exactly that way. I shouldn’t say that never happened. There was a Lady I did lead to the Lord after just spending a few no, it wasn’t a one time visit. It was just several days together. She was looking after my family and I, and so we got to spend several days. But that happened. But other than that, it’s been longer and it’s just been being a friend, getting to know them and having them understand the gospel, because there’s a lot of ignorance to what would be basic Bible truths for us. Some of the people have a basic concept of the Bible but don’t really know how to apply it, don’t know how it all works together. They may know a few stories here in high school. Actually, they teach Christianity as part of comparative religion. It’ll be a course you take and so people know something about Christianity, but it’s just another myth and it’s presented that way. And so whatever they know is very little. And it’s presented from a very humanist perspective. It has nothing to do with Bible teaching.

Is it presented more from a Catholic perspective? From a Catholic perspective, sort of like about as Catholic as the Pope right now, very humanist. Everything can be explained away. There’s nothing miraculous. The Bible is basically man’s book, and it’s just a way man has reason through things. And even the stories in there are not for us to take for granted. They’re for us to understand society a little bit. Very humanist perspective of the Bible. How do you handle the difference in culture with the people of your I think the same thing with patients. I have the privilege of, like I said, my parents, my dad was from this country, my mom was from Argentina, neighboring country. But I still have a lot to learn because I never grew up here. So these people, they live through a dictatorship. They have experiences I’ve never had. So often with patients I learned some things, just trying to give illustrations on Salvation. I realized there are things that don’t work here that people may comprehend in Canada or in the United States. So people often think very differently because of their culture. So the difference is you just have to handle the patients and taking for granted. A missionary is a visitor. He’s not from there. There’s no way he should be upset with the people. Nobody asked him to come other than Lord. So the people there, they don’t have your background. So the owners is on the missionary to teach them, to have them understand the truth, and they have a completely different lens to what they’re looking at. So if they look at the Bible, they’re looking at things completely differently. There’s a man named David Livermore. He’s a Christian man. He writes a lot on different cultures. And one of the stories he refers to is there was a pastor, a missionary, who actually talked about the prodigal son, and he presented it to different people in Eastern Europe, and he basically interviewed the people. What are the main points of the story and what people came away from in different parts of the world? He did in Africa as well were completely different from how we look at it in the Western world. In the Western world, basically the big point, the key takeaway from that story most people got was the rebellion of the sun. And in Eastern Europe, the major takeaway people came with was the famine. The famine was the main point that changed everything, where from their perspective, you go through a little bit of hunger and you realize how important your family is. Whereas that boy wanted that money, that inheritance, and that’s not necessarily something we think about in the Western world. People in the Western world don’t know, hunger like they know it elsewhere. And so it’s interesting to try and understand the missionary needs to be a student of the people and realize that you may be saying something and they may not be getting it at all because they don’t have the lens you have and vice versa. The missionary may not have the lens they have. So sometimes that definitely happens. Two people may be looking at the exact same thing and not seeing it the same way. The Bible is right. It’s right for every culture. And I think there’s only one interpretation of the Bible, but we obviously all have different cultural contexts and different things will stand out to us. They won’t stand out to the next person. The missionary certainly needs to understand that as he deals with people. So there’s so many things that are different from the North American mind compared to a Uruguay in mind. Yeah.

So let me ask you, though, with your father being from Uruguay, did that make deputation and getting visa work and anything easier? Yes, it did make it easier. It made it easier for me. I realized that, too. And I have to remember to be patient because my family hasn’t had that privilege. So obviously, my wife knows her in laws, my kids know their grandparents. But it’s obviously different for me, having grown up in that home, even though I never grew up in Uruguay, just understanding how my parents think. There are ways they think of things that my kids and my wife haven’t necessarily. So I guess it would make it a little bit easier on reputation. It certainly made it easier to emigrate here because I just went to the they have a law for returning citizens, and that’s what I was considered. And so I decided to bring in my dad’s paper. Dealing with the government’s never easy, no matter what country you deal with. But there was a process for me that made it fairly simple as long as I was patient. Great.

What was it like raising your kids for a number of years there? I guess. Yeah, that’s a good question. My kids came here in their teens, and so that is unusual. I’m so proud of my kids because that is not an easy thing to do. I think of where I was as a teenager. That’s huge. You’re just starting to get to know who you are and you go to another country. So they’ve gone through huge changes, maybe more than any of us, but definitely huge changes at that point in their life. So I’m really proud of them. I’m not sure if I’m answering the question or where you’re going with that, but huge changes for them. They’ve done really well trying to assimilate. They found things to keep them busy. That’s really important. Obviously, young people have a lot of energy. They need to be kept busy or else they get into trouble. Sure. So they found good things and praise the Lord. There’s good things they can get involved in here, even Church things like there’s a good music conservatory here. My son’s really into sports and that sort of thing. And there’s lots of things you can get plugged into here. I really think that’s important. Right. They’re both working now.

Earlier in the podcast, you described Uruguay as a secular state. Does that mean that it’s more of an act 17 type culture as opposed to an Act Two culture where the people have very little understanding of who God is and creation and the fundamentals of existence, basically? Or is it more like an Acts Two culture where they have an understanding of God? There’s a religiosity there, but they don’t know anything about Messiah, about Christ? I would say it’s definitely a act 17 culture. It’s different, and that is kind of evident. For example, there seems to be a lot of good work being done in Mexico, in missions, just the gospel being spread. And some Mexicans have come to your way and been disappointed that the reception hasn’t been the same. And I think there just hasn’t been the undergirding. That country, like you’d asked earlier, has a lot of Catholic influence. And the good thing about Catholicism is I guess it does present God in some semblance of Holiness, and it certainly presents man as guilty generally. I mean, obviously Catholics think they’re self righteous, but many Catholics have a sense of guilt already. So there’s a foundation that people can use and present the gospel to here. It’s been so perverted that that foundation is there. And there are many people who have no concept of even basic Bible truth. Sometimes I’m talking with people and I’ll start I’ll often mention Adam and Eve to begin with, you know, Adam and Eve. No, never heard of it. And so the most basic Bible truths are sometimes unknown. But even the folks that do know them, it’s all clouded with mythology, and that’s all that Christianity is. So definitely act 17. There’s a young man that I’m dealing with a little bit. He accepted the Lord, and he’s really struggled with obviously all he learned in school. And basically they’re taught that science disproves religion of any sort. It’s just something you do to feel good. And so just trying to find good material to encourage him, because I had that, too. I had those struggles years ago. And so just trying to encourage him along the same way because that’s very much how things are taught here.

Do you find that an Axe 17 culture is more difficult to witness and compare to Axe Strategy Two? Or you would just say both of them have their unique challenges. It’s not hard to witness here. People are very open to listen. I am so grateful you can talk to people and they will listen. And so people are very receptive that way, very friendly. It’s rare that I get attract refused. It happens. But it’s rare, much rarer than anywhere in North America. And people are willing to talk. They’re more free with their time. So that is good. So in that way, it’s not hard. It’s just different. And so I don’t know if there’s any easy mission fields. It’s just the work looks different. Yeah, definitely.

What has some needs that if field would make your task in sharing the gospel and you agree a lot easier. I think number one for anyone would be language. If you’re just asking generically, obviously you can’t really get in touch with someone without speaking their language. Well, if you just think the people you connect with. I really wrestled with this as a Christian quite a few years ago, actually, after I was called admissions, before I got here, I started to wrestle and wonder if I had a pastor who spoke broken English, would I be humble enough to just sit and receive what he had for me? And I’d like to say yes, but I really wrestled with that for a while. And I thought, wow, if my pastor was an immigrant, would I be humble enough to sit under it? I think most North Americans or most English speakers often don’t think of that because we have such a wealth of good preachers. I praise the Lord for that. But I think it takes a bit of humility to listen to someone who sometimes doesn’t conjugate things correctly, who mispronounces things. And so I think someone should preach as eloquently as they can. They should communicate as well as they can because the devil will use excuses and they’ll say, oh, that guy can’t even string a sentence together, for example. And so a good command of the language, I think, is very important. I can’t emphasize enough. I know that some I don’t want to be hard on missionaries, but I don’t think there’s a place where you can say, well, it’s good enough. I’ve done my year of language school, and now I think you should be constantly in Bible College. They make you take English classes so that you can communicate, not just good enough, you want to do very well. I don’t think the mission field deserves any less. People should be communicating very well. That’s a very important need. Prepared servants, I guess, for people to be prepared to realize it’s not like home, right? That’s an important need. I guess the biggest needs are personal more than what other people can do. Maybe that’s just the key to life. There’s only so much the outside world can do for you. A lot of it has to be you. And so whether it’s language or just accepting some of the things that are different about your field, those are the biggest I can think of.

Is there anything that the Church in the US is doing that makes your job on the mission field a lot more difficult? If you mean the Church in the US as far as like Christianity in general? Yes. I’m in a bit of an isolated place. The closest missionaries to where we live are about 300 miles away. And so I don’t have very much influence from the US that way. That can be difficult at times, but I think sometimes it can be a blessing because I don’t realize some of the things that are going on. I know that from different situations elsewhere. There’s a book that was written on this. It was called Toxic Charity. I think sometimes people want to give and I think we should be generous. I think Christians absolutely need to be generous, but it needs to be done mindful of what’s the best thing to help those people? I know of a mission in Mexico very near the border, and churches would drive across there and just throw clothing off the top of a bus and leave. And it really ruined what another missionary was trying to do there with the people there. It just created a real just an unhealthy attitude with the people there because they felt second class, because these people who gave the stuff wouldn’t even talk to them or come anywhere near them. It almost seemed like they were just throwing away stuff, sad their conscience. So I guess just giving thoughtfully I know that may not be an expert on that because I’m a bit of a pioneer. I’m a bit removed from all of that. I guess the other thing would be in most good Baptist churches, we would be careful of quick prayer is making sure that one, two, three, repeat after me and then telling folks were saved. Most good churches wouldn’t do that sort of thing. But sometimes I think some people think that should happen. If you go on a short term missions trip that you go somewhere for a week or two and you should see. And I’d love that. And I praise the Lord anytime that happens. But it doesn’t always happen. Revivals do happen, but that’s the other. They don’t happen every single day and every time you make a trip somewhere. And so I think that’s one thing, maybe in short term mission, that if you’re there to work and there to help and there to absorb things, realize that just because you’re in a foreign language and you talk to a translator, that scores of people aren’t going to be dedicating their lives or getting saved. And if it does happen, it’s because someone else has already been there doing a lot of plowing. So take watering and plating. Sure. Yeah, definitely.

You’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We are sitting down with missionary Marco and we are finding out all about his mission field. We’ll be right back.

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All right, missionary Marco, let’s go into a little bit of fun section and find out some of your favorites. What is your favorite scriptiverse? I like James 517. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are. And he prayed earnestly that it might not rain and it rained not on the Earth by the space of three years and six months. I really appreciate that because it just emphasizes how normal, how regular Elijah was. Yeah. The Bible is not about necessarily superstars. It’s about people who surrender to God. And God did work through them because of that. Yeah. It’s amazing how the Lord didn’t hide their shortcomings, their sin and stuff like that. So we can actually relate. Can you imagine if they were all able to stretch their hand out and move mountains? Definitely. What would you say is your favorite biblical historical account? Most folks will refer to it as a buy the story, but we try to shy away from that term.

So what would you say is your favorite historical account from the Bible? I don’t know about a single one, I guess. I really appreciate how many times David really saw an opportunity and thought it was important. When he saw the Philistine Goliath, he went down to the camp and said, Is there not a cause? And then so many times throughout his life, several times throughout his life, it’s written in Scriptures. He asked the Lord for one thing or another, Shall I go? I know there are different views on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, but he had a relationship with God in the Old Testament. He asked God personal questions and God answered it. And I think that’s one huge difference between religions of this world and the Bible is that you have even in the Old Testament, a personal God. And so that personal God answered David’s prayers. I think it’s interesting I was talking to somebody about this the other day. We have the whole Bible today. We got all 66 books. We don’t have to wonder about doctrines, teachings, that sort of thing. And yet in David’s time, in Moses time, in Abraham’s time, they didn’t have even in Jesus time, they didn’t have all we have today to believe in. And yet God called Abraham to do something absolutely incredible in sacrificing his son. And Abraham knew God was talking to him. And I wonder how did he know? But somehow he knew. There’s a part of our faith that’s intellectual we have to understand the gospel to receive it. People often talk about a personal relationship with God. And that’s I think the part that’s subjective, that is hard to quantify is when we know God, we know when he’s talking to us. I almost wonder why Abraham didn’t do something like Gideon and say, God, if this is really you, could you just give me a I’d like to double check on this, but he didn’t. And Moses as well. And David asked God and he trusted God when he got God’s answer. And so I think that’s fascinating. And just having David’s attitude of his talking with God and God answering that, I think is a key to our Christian life today, even though so much is different with the Holy Spirit and that sort of thing, I think that attitude is universal. It had to be that way in the Old Testament, and it has to be that way today. We have to have that reliance, that dependence, that asking God for his guidance has to be that way not only for Salvation, but just to walk with him and be sanctified.

Yeah. If you talk about that, what came to my mind was Acts, chapter 17, where the Bible say and they that have turned the world upsidedown have come here also. And when I think about that, as you talk about how did Abraham knew and all that stuff and having the complete word of God, I think about it and I wonder why is it that we today can’t turn the world upside down for Christ? Wow. And we have the complete Bible. I would make the argument that we have more than what they had, yet it seems like we do so much less. And I think that relationship that they had that maybe we just have not had that relationship to that level, maybe not enough of us to really turn even our world, our Jerusalem, upside down for Christ. Definitely. Yeah. I think that’s the key. I think part of it comes with time God hasn’t changed. So I think you’re right to put the onus on us. I do believe there’s times and places there was places where Jesus went to preach. He said tyrant Sedon is talking about places for the hardness of their heart they wouldn’t receive. So I think that’s sometimes the case. But I think a lot more of the time those are hard things to understand because we know the world needs the gospel. And yet I also firmly believe that if there’s someone seeking him, God will make himself know him. If people are seeking the Lord, he’s a rewarder of them that they’ll just seek him. And I think if there’s the darkest place in the world and someone wants to know the Lord, God will send someone, God will give that person light to know his son. And yet there is definitely, on the other hand, a very big responsibility for the individual, for the Christian. And I think more would happen if I was more surrendered. If Christians were more surrendered. Yeah, definitely.

What would you say is the most convicted scripture passage to you? I think one Peter 315, where it says, but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you for a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. I think that’s very important not only from just sometimes people looking at apologetics and philosophy look at that, but the context there is suffering. So part of it is people are going to see your life and how you handle certain things, and you need to be prepared not only to talk about it, but to show how you are overcoming. And I think that’s part of it, too. There’s something I believe that Christian faith is very objective, very real. I believe it passes every test for truth. But I also think there’s something very subjective about it. And I think that’s why there’s something that happens when you look someone in the eye and they see you going through something or you tell them about the gospel. And there’s something that happens when it’s not just historical events. And it’s not just that this is the most probable religion. There’s something that happens on a very personal level when you can talk to someone about your walk with God, your testimony. I think that’s very powerful. There’s so many angles to look at that verse. The answer meaning knowing our faith, knowing how to explain ourselves. But I think in the context talks about suffering and suffering and righteousness, it’s also living out. I mean, it’s one thing to have your head full of doctrine, and I think it’s important to know our Bibles and important to know Christian apologetics and all those things are important. But there’s something about a personal walk with God that you can’t replace with any amount of knowledge.

Yeah, definitely. What came to my mind is Hebrews eleven one. Now, faith is a substance of things, hopeful evidence of things not seen. There’s definitely a faith aspect to it. I like how Ken Ham normally talk about it. I know if you follow Ken Ham on social media, but when I look at his Twitter feed and stuff like that, there’s a lot of people trolling him and stuff like that, and there’s evidence. Part of it, we can prove it to science, but also you make your bones about it. There’s faith. We have also have faith. So that’s really good. Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. There’s obviously an intellectual part to faith. We believe the Bible and we trust the Lord Jesus because we know what’s written. There is not a fairy tale I witnessed to a man just a couple of months ago, and he agreed with everything. I share the gospel with someone. I’m very thorough. And with this man, I’ve known him for a while I spent a good 2 hours explaining the gospel, sharing it with him, and he agreed with everything. He’s always been very kind to me, very friendly, very respectful. And at the end of it, I said, well, came to the point of decision. Are you going to accept Lord Jesus Christ? Are you to the place where you’re going to repent and trust in Him? He says, no, I don’t need to. He had a Catholic background. As far as comparing to other men. He’s a decent man and I don’t need that. I haven’t been that bad. And so that’s good. Basically what he didn’t say is that’s good for bad people, but I don’t need that. And so although he intellectually, he agreed with everything I had to say. There’s a point in each and every one of our Wills where we have to say, okay, it’s true. I believe all that now. I’m going to put my faith in it, I’m going to trust in it, and I know I need that. So there is an intellectual part to our faith, and it is very reasonable, very intellectual, very historically accurate, very scientifically provable. But there is a part that has to be done in our will that can’t be. No amount of knowledge can fill. Yeah, that 17 inch problem, 17 inches between your head and a hat. And for that gentleman, he reaches head, but he never penetrated the hat. Definitely. That doesn’t mean he won’t either. I love him. I keep talking to him, but just at that point, he’s not there yet. Definitely.

What would you say is the most comforting scriptures passage to you? Probably the most comforting. The Lord gave me this verse several years ago and it still is. Delight thyself also in the Lord, he shall give you the desires of thy heart. Psalms 37, four Amen. And that really encourages me because if I, you know, reading that verse, reading in its context, if I get my heart right and I’m seeking his will, then it’s not about being Hedonistic and getting all that I want. But I know that he knows me better than anyone else. If my heart’s right with Him, then all my life is going to be taken care of. The world looks for so many things that are shallow and empty, and they think it’ll bring them joy, peace, everything the world is looking for. Life, excitement. And if I delight myself in him and seek his will, I’m going to have all that joy and lasting peace. I don’t know about you, but the most joyful people I know, the most satisfied people I know are people who are serving the Lord. And so that really encouraged me, basically knowing that if I seek his will, there may be other people who look at it different ways, but he’ll give me exactly what I need and it’ll change my desires too. Because if I’m Carnival, there’s going to be certain things I want, and I know I’ll get them sooner or later maybe, and I’ll realize they don’t satisfy. And yet if I set my heart to desire his will, he’ll change my desires, too. So there are things that do satisfy, and he’ll make sure I get him. He’s a good God. Amen. He is.

What is your favorite hymn of the faith? I have many. Probably my favorite is he lead with me just because I used to leave singing in a Church I went to, and we used to go to a work camp. And I think the words are powerful, but it just has a little bit of a special place in my heart because we used to go out to a work camp, and I didn’t realize it as a design. But the Church I went to, we never sang it. They never sang it, and I just didn’t realize what we went there. We never sang it. So I picked the song and it was special because we’d go through, like, a smoky pool room, card playing room. It was a WordCamp. And we went through all that. And sometimes they had a guy on a stage on the other side of the wall from us, and he’d be trying to play music, praise the Lord. Our hymns usually ground him out once we got started and they usually leave. And so it was very much a man’s preaching time, like, it was just men there, and it was really special. Anyway, one time he lead with me, and when you’re with a bunch of men, you let it rip. And so you just sing loud, especially in a work camp, you get everybody else. So it was special, and I didn’t realize it till after. But my pastor said, you realize you sang a solo tonight, because I didn’t at the time, but he said, no, I don’t know that one. And it didn’t seem like anybody else did either. So anyway, that one had a bit of a story with me, but still precious him.

Who would you say is your favorite giant of the fate? I appreciate Paul so much. He is on some levels. Like, he’s so huge. We talked about people who we can relate to. I think there are certain people in the Bible, at least I find it very hard to relate to. Like, Moses had the best education money could buy. He was a Prince. He must have had some administrative posts while he was in Egypt. I can’t relate to that kind of background. David, I look at man, they were writing songs about the guy. He knew how to write music. He was like a master warrior. He was a master leader. Everybody was compared to him. So even there, like, you think, although we can relate to his walk with God, there’s so many things I can say. I can’t relate to what he did. He was just an incredible man. And Paul, to some extent, too. Like, he was very educated. He did a lot. And yet what I appreciate about him is how God used such a perfect and unlikely person, because as he says, Pharisees, a Pharisees. And yet God calls him to reach the Gentiles and some people who are really out of the normal trading routes, the normal ways, the normal places that a Roman citizen or definitely a Pharisee, those people they would never talk to. And he was able to connect with those folks. And that just is fascinating for me, maybe because I’m a missionary and just the wisdom God gave him at times, like when he was on trial there between the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I know God must have given him the words, but I thought that’s so smart, like the hope of the Resurrection. I’ve called into questions. I just think, wow, that’s great. I wish I’d have thought of that, like, just awesome how God used him, the things he said. And sometimes he was unyielding. He would cast out a devil and say, the child is the devil. And sometimes he was very easily to be entreated. So he was a very impressive fellow in that sense. Very hard to see wrong in his life. A lot to look up to from, I guess, a secular perspective in the sense the man studied hard, maybe that’s spiritual, too. The man studied hard. He knew his Bible, but also he was very graceful of folks. I think of when he talked to James there at the end. I don’t know how eager he was to make that vow, but he did it even with the other things that he was asked to send to the other Church. He was very grateful with those folks in Jerusalem, although he didn’t necessarily repeat the same message that they gave him when he went back to other churches and his Epistles. I’m sure he did, but the Epistles don’t contain it. And so he seems to be a very graceful fellow as well. So very, I guess, complex fellow, a very interesting fellow, very well rounded, balanced fellow. Yeah, definitely.

So what are some of the biggest barriers to people in Uruguay when it comes to receiving the gospel? You mentioned how it’s not hard to witness in Uruguay, but what do you think the biggest barriers are? Good question. Cs Lewis had a book, screw, tape, letters, and in it he wrote, the best way to deceive man about God was by making them think they already knew him. And I think that’s the case for a lot of Uruguayans. Some of them don’t know hardly anything about the Bible, and yet a lot of others think they know him. They know him very well, they know it all together. And so that’s the case. I’ve got a man who comes to our Church, semiregularly. He basically thinks he knows everything about the Bible, and a lot of people are that way. It’s just another book of philosophy, and his mind hasn’t gotten to the place where he’s subjected himself to God’s word. And I think if the Bible says something and my mind thinks differently, God has every right to correct me. And so I think most people think they may know God because they have a concept about him. They have a concept of righteousness. They have a concept of right and wrong. And so they figure that God must fit within their paradigm. And so that’s I think the biggest challenge is getting people to realize that their concept of God is not right is not true. They’ve made an idol and they don’t realize it. Yeah.

So how do you get around those barriers or remove those barriers, if you please, and get to the gospel? Just imagine that someone here is listening to this episode, and they have those same barriers. How would you explain the gospel to them and remove those barriers for them so they can have a clear view of the cross? Yeah. I think one thing in North America and maybe the Western world, there’s been a little bit of an undergirding of biblical understanding. People have some idea what the Bible teaches. And so some people are not far from being saved because they just need somebody to put the dots together for them in your way. Most people need to have the foundation laid. And so one thing we’ve done here is something that some missionaries have started doing in the last few decades, and they’ve seen a need in the mission field is something called chronological Bible teaching or foundational Bible teaching. It basically happened because some frustrated missionaries decided to start from scratch because they were trying to teach these people similarly to how they’re teaching North America, and people weren’t getting it. And so when we first got here, we started right in the very beginning of Genesis. And just even before going through too many verses, just laying a foundation of who God is, who we are, the Bible. I mean, God knew what he was doing when he laid out his word and when he revealed himself to man. And so I’m very much a believer in laying out a good foundation of the Old Testament before presenting Christ, especially if someone doesn’t have that foundation. I mean, you say to someone, Well, God loves you, and a lot of people will say, well, of course not. What’s not to love? Or you say you need to accept Jesus like I told you about this man. Well, what for? I’m doing pretty well by myself. I’m a lot better than my neighbors. What do I need that for? And they haven’t understood the Holiness of God, the sinfulness of man. And God lays that out right from the very first verses of scripture. So there’s just a lot of truth packed into how God revealed himself. And so that’s one thing we think is very important. And I think we’re seeing fruit. I just started teaching in my midweek Bible studies, just started teaching doctrine a few weeks ago. When I say doctrine, I mean actually picking through part of an epistle I went through two years before even teaching Christ. I just went through the Old Testament. And some of these people knew something about the Bible. And you could see lights coming on. And that’s so exciting when you see people put things together and they’re hearing things. As I said, they’ve heard religious talk, they’ve heard Bible stories. But now this is real. This is God’s word, this is like us. And so you go through Adam and Eve and they say, wow, they rejected God. God did everything for them, and then they rejected his basic truth. And you get to know it. And you see the whole world turned after whatever they thought was right instead of seeking God. And just one story after another really lays the foundation. What’s wrong with man? And then God time and time again, reaching out and trying to reach out, communicate with man. Man doesn’t deserve it, but God does it anyway. And the Bible itself lays a very good foundation that way.

And so I think that’s the best way to do it. If you’re dealing in a culture that really knows next to nothing about Jesus, it’s really hard to go through a Romans road because you can tell them, do you believe you’re a sinner? But they don’t understand that. A lot of people will say that’s. One of the first verses, you’ll go to Roman 310 for all sin and come short of the glory of God in 23, there is no righteous, no, not one. And so people will hear that and say, well, yeah, I’m not perfect. I can accept that. But just understanding what sin means, we’re dirty before God and we wronged him. And it’s not that we’re not so bad. No, God’s perfect. And God’s Holy. And man consistently rejects him. And it’s not as easy as saying God, just let this one go. Ignore that it ever happened. We have a sin problem. And I think the Old Testament just very clearly shows that. And so I think that’s important. And it just very clearly lays the foundation so that man can see it doesn’t matter what situation, it doesn’t matter what people group. Man rejected God. And then Christ came prophesied over 300 times in 300 verses, 100 different prophecies about a coming Messiah. And Jesus came and fulfilled all those. And then he took that debt. He made that perfect payment in the Old Testament, you see, time and time again, a sacrifice, a blood sacrifice in man’s place. And so finally that Redeemer, that deliverer came, and Jesus died on the cross, gave himself willingly, knowing he would do that from eternity past. He wanted to do that. He looked at this info Earth, knowing that there’s a whole humanity, and they’re going to reject me. They’re going to beat me, they’re going to whip me, they’re going to ignore me, they’re going to mock me and I want to do that because if I don’t do that, this humanity will die eternally. And so Jesus died on the cross for that reason. And then if you lay that foundation when you present Christ, it makes sense. It’s not about convincing someone to repeat a prayer or something shallow like that. It’s people literally and really repenting and understanding what they’re being saved from and those things. So I think maybe that’s the key in North America too. I think there’s a lot of people a lot of places in North America where people are very biblically ignorant and so good foundation needs to be laid before people can just trust Christ.

Missionary Marco, thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast. Thank you, friends. It’s been a pleasure talking with you. Yeah, definitely.

Thank you for listening to get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Barriers go to removingbarriers net. This has been the removing barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.