Episode 73

The murder of Ahmaud Arbery in February of 2020 sent shockwaves throughout the country and galvanized the cries of activist groups and race baiters alike. At the end of the confrontation, a black man was dead and three white men claimed self defense while attempting to conduct a citizen’s arrest. This has brought the question of citizen’s arrest into the spotlight. What is it, who can make it, and when? Where is the line between self-defense and citizen’s arrest? Did Arbery have the right to defend himself? In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we explore these questions and grapple with their implications as people living in a fallen world and the Savior Jesus Christ who has made the way to save us from them.

Post script: At the time of the publishing of this podcast, both Travis and Gregory McMichael were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole plus 20 years. William Bryan was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years.

What are you yelling about? Like you said you broke the law by making an illegal U turn. And I hereby the citizen of the town of Mayberry in the United States of America arrest.Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers Podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

This is episode 73 of the Removing Barriers Podcast, and in this episode we will be discussing the happening surrounding the shooting of Ahmad A. Berry and the wisdom or lack thereof of engaging in citizen arrests.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Did you know that you could find us on Twitter, Gabe, Parlor, Facebook and Reddit go to Removingbarriers. Net contact and like and follow us on social media removing a Clear View of the Cross

so Jay, we started this episode with a fun scene from the Andy Griffith Show where Gomepal executed a citizen arrest on Maybury Deputy Bounty Five. But before we get into citizen arrest, let’s talk about the background information surrounding the shooting of Ahmad Arbury. Unfortunately, the shooting of Ahmad Arbury was tragic and there was nothing funny about it. On February 23, 2020, Ahmad Arbury middle named Marquez. I think I’m pronouncing that right, was murdered in Georgia Satay Shore’s neighborhood. It’s near Brunswick, which hits pretty close to home because I actually conducted training in Brunswick quite a few times. Stationed where I was for my last duty station. There had apparently been several reports of theft or burglaries in the area, and on that day A. Berry was seen running through the neighborhood, going into houses that were still under construction, and they suspected him of being perhaps one of the criminals that had been robbing or burglarizing the area. He entered a house that was under construction for all of maybe five to seven minutes and then walked out and was running and was pursued by three men. The first two were Travis Mcmichel and his father, Gregory McMichael, who were pursuing him in a truck and they were armed. And a neighbor who saw Arbury running and the McMichael is following him in their truck decided that he would join in and pursue as well. Videotaping the incident with his cell phone and the cell phone footage that was taken by the neighbor whose name was William Bryan. He goes by Roddy. The cell phone footage shows Arbury running in the middle of the road with the truck that had been pursuing him, parked ahead of him and Travis Mcmichel gets out of the vehicle, says something to him. It’s not clear what he says, and Ahmad goes around to the right of the vehicle toward a ditch, trying to get away. Travis intercepts him in front of the truck. They have a struggle. They are fighting and what can be heard next or three shots. Shotgun shots. Arbury tries to get away but stumbles and falls face down in the street, having been shot twice in the chest, once in the wrist. His father, Gregory McMichael, had never gotten out of the vehicle. So Travis McMichael was driving. Gregory McMichael was riding in the cab or in the bed of the truck and only came down to approach his son after having shot Arburie. He wasn’t the one who actually shot Ahmad. So anyway, Ahmad is shot. They call for the police and the police arrive. They take statements. They obviously begin their investigation, but the men were not arrested. The Mcmich and Mr. Bryan were not arrested until two months or so. Later, on May 7, Michaels were arrested and Mr. Brian was arrested. On May 21, they were charged with several counts of felony murder, aggravated assault, false imprisonment and some other crime that escapes me, I think attempt to commit a felony or something along those lines. Yes, that’s correct.

The case started under the jurisdiction of a woman named Jackie Johnson. She is I don’t know if it’s is or was, but was the judicial District DA for Brunswick? She recused herself because Gregory McMichael, the father, had worked for her office for something around the neighborhood of 31 years or 20 something years as an investigator. Actually, I think it was more like ten years, and he was a police officer for probably 30 years also. So he worked for her for quite some time, and she recused herself from the case. However, there’s a little bit of a kerfuffle there in the sense that she is currently being accused of obstructing justice or perhaps trying to step in and prevent an arrest and to protect her friend or protect Gregory McMichael, whether or not he’s a friend isn’t known, but she’s currently being accused of using her power to step in and protect him from the repercussions of having shot Arbury. It’s been proven that after the shooting, he did call her and asked for advice or for counsel or for something along those lines. On March 8, two commissioners from Glen County accused her of trying to use her position in her power to protect the McMichaels. And so that’s a whole different thing going on as they investigate that as well. The officers for Glenn County accused either her or her office of deliberately seeking to prevent an arrest and prevent further investigation of what had happened. Fortunately, Thankfully, I should say not. Fortunately, thankfully, thank God that the arbary family and those that represented them continue to push for an investigation. There were obviously much demonstrations that were taking place, many demonstrations that were taking place in order to advocate for justice for arbary. As I said, the men were arrested on May 7, Brian was arrested on May 21. As of the end of last year, the case has gone to trial, and all of the men were found guilty. Later on in the podcast, we’ll go through all of the different verdicts and talk about what are they guilty of? But basically they’re going to jail for pretty much the rest of their lives more than likely. And that’s essentially where this particular story ends.

And so perhaps what we hope to do is look at what happened and figure out whether race was involved. What is Citizen’s arrest? What legal recourse do we have in a situation like theirs? And hopefully we can learn some lessons from the tragic and unfortunate and unnecessary death of a Mount Arbor. Yeah. And here are some things that came out in the trial because the trial happened last year. And some things that I note you mentioned Jackie Johnson, where she actually wrote letters and acts to not have both Travis and Gregory McMichael arrested. And as I said, that’s a whole different topic as well. But also, it seems like these men because of their former law enforcement, Travis Michael had irresponsible in the Coast Guard. His father was a police officer in the Glen County area down there. So it seems that these men were well known. Well, maybe not well known, but at least somehow have, I guess, trains that were attached that they go by not being arrested for two months. And I think if you go back to because this happened in 2020, so you’re going all the way back that time when you have Brenda Taylor happen and stuff like that, that’s when all this kind of come to light, when they were pushing Brentwood and that’s just the beginning of George Floyd and all these things. So when that video did come out, whether it was leaked or not, that’s when the Bureau of Investigation stepped in, took over the investigation. And then in a matter of days, if you are restaurant for these men and just some of these things that came out in court because you mentioned whether or not this was racially motivated or not.

And quite honestly, based on what I see come out in court. And, of course, when this happened, Georgia didn’t have a hate crime law, so evidence to prove racism didn’t come out in court. Do I believe this was racially motivated? I have no evidence to say so. But I did see men like Benjamin Crump, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson. Quite honestly, when I see men like those getting involved in any shooting that involves a black victim, quote, unquote and white perpetrators, quote, unquote. I don’t think race. I think race baiting, to be honest with these men. If these men were not involved, maybe I would say maybe there’s some race involved here. But when I see these men, to be honest, I just think here they go again, is race baiting. I could be wrong on that. But I don’t think the important thing here is whether he was motivated by race because what I see came out in court. If you listen to the court cases and they are YouTube, the entire court cases on YouTube, you can listen to it if you have nothing to do whatever it is, hours and hours and hours of court cases. I think this thing went on for like three, four weeks. So if you have that time that you can listen to 8 hours days of court stuff. Of course, there are breaks in between that you can skip. But the lawyers read Gregory Michael statement that he gave to the police shortly after this happened. As you mentioned, JD, they mentioned about the burglaries that were in the area, and they mentioned about the string of crimes that were in the area. And if you listen, Travis McMichael, he’s the one who pulled the trigger. Travis McMichael, he actually testify in his own defense, as well as I listened to these men. And as they explain their thought and frame of mind between why they do this. Quite honestly, I don’t think that they were trying to execute a systems and arrest. I don’t think that was forefront on their mind. I think they did this. And the motivating factor behind this was frustration because they mentioned over and over the string of robberies they mentioned over how many times Hamada Berry allegedly went into this house on the construction and get away.

And then you must note that this house was on a construction. There’s numerous videos of Amada go into that house. However, we must note that there are many videos of him going into the house, but there’s no video showing him actually taking anything from the home. The Sunday afternoon when this happened, he was in shorts, tennis shoes and a plain white T shirt. When the camera picked him up. First, he was walking. He wasn’t juggling at first, as people were saying, he was walking. And the camera showed that he walked on the side of work and he went straight into the house on the construction. The videos that came out in court showing him walking around the home doing absolutely nothing, maybe just curious who knows, whatever, but just walking around the home, then a neighbor, because remember this happened. I think it’s like 20 or 22 statue of drive or shore, whatever the community is. And the neighbor saw him. And when the neighbor saw him, I guess it became spooked. And he ran. And as he ran, he ran across the McMichael’s home, which is at 30 Stetilla Shores or Stetilla Drive. And as he went across the home, Gregory McMichael, in his statement to police, said he was sitting in the bed of his truck, mending feet for his boat, and he saw him ran across, going really fast to use the words of Gregory McMichael that came out in court. Gregory McMichael described Amanda Berry as Harley, and then he used the Bible words for a donkey. Across on the sidewalk. He went into his home and all this came out in court. He told his son Travis, that the guy is Harley, the Barbara for donkey. That’s a Kingdom Virgin down the road. Travis Matt Michael grabbed his gun, which was a pump action shotgun, and Gregory McMichael grabbed revolver of some sort. I think what came out in court, they jump in their truck and they went after a moderate. They chased this young man over five minutes traffic. Michael repeatedly tried to tell Auberry that, hey, we just want to talk to you. Stop what’s going on. Eventually they went across William Roddy Brian home and he saw them and he joined in the chase or whatever the case may be and basically went in a circle. Come all way back round as you come back around. The Michaels were above him and the neighbor, Roddy Brian was below him. Whatever happened, I think he tried to open William Bryan door. Whatever the case may be, William Brian testimony to the police that he tried to block him, corner him or whatever the case may be. Then a Berry left there and run back up towards the direction of the Matt Michaels. Travis Matt Michael at that point is out of the truck, raised his shotgun, went around the right of the truck, as Jay said, and come around and both of them meet right there. To me, a Berry was basically defending himself. This was self defense. If a Berry had gone and use it on any of these men, I think that would have been justified. I think that would have been the right thing to do because you’re a man chasing you. They’re not police officers. They don’t declare themselves to be police officers. You have a constitutional right in this country not to talk to anybody you don’t want to talk to. And they trace him for five minutes. And in their words, they cornered Block and even Gregory Michael when he was talking to one of the police officers afterwards, they said they trapped him like a rat.

No, these are Southerners and they use colorful language. So I’m not going to use the language and see the language lead to me to believe is racism. I don’t think they have colorful language, language that I probably would not have used. But the motivation being of this, I don’t believe, is race. I believe it was deep frustration because of the string of robberies that was going on in the community. But yet in their testimony to the police officers, they said that they believe Arbury is the person, but they had no evidence to prove other than the videos that show him took nothing. And the owner of the home said that nothing in house was missing. The owner of the home did mention that he lost some valuables that was in a boat next to the home, but he had no evidence whether that was Amad Abbarre who did it. Travis McMichael, the younger, the one who actually pulled the trigger, actually had a gun stolen from his truck, but he has no evidence whether Amanda Berry or not. So at this point, they were going off of, hey, we want to talk to this young man. Travis McMahon did say in court that he actually saw a motorbike in the house one evening, and he actually put his headlights on him. And Amada Berry actually hid from him. That was the first encounter. He said that he reached down in his pants like he had a gun and all these things. Anyway, all this has come out in court, and he has been proven that, hey, Amanda Barry didn’t have any weapon on him that day. And the one who brought the weapon to the fight was the McMichaels, because William Radi Bryan didn’t have a gun. He actually vitamin the stuff on his cell phone. So that’s my take on what is not his racism or not? I don’t think so. I think he was deep frustration on the guy part.

But what do you think whatever became of the additional evidence that the prosecutor presented where he said that William Bryan told him that as a mad Arbore Lee dying that Travis McMichael called him a racial epithet, swearing and using the N word. Was that ever confirmed? Yeah. I think he actually may have said that he never came out in court. That was bad from coming out in court because the weird thing about this trial was that there were three defendants you had Travis Mcmichel, Gregory Matt Michael and William Ruddy Bryan and I’m no lawyer, and we are no lawyers. But what came up in the court hearings a lot and objection that took place was based on the brutal rule and probably going to talk about the brutal rule again. But the brutal rule is basically this. When you have more than one defendant in a child, you cannot have a defendant who has a right not to testify in his own defense or to testify if you want to. So basically, brutal rule is basically saying that it’s almost like he say, but defender B can’t say defend A was thinking something or did something or whatever he can’t incriminate defendant A. Defendant B can’t defendant A. So there were all these things outside of the ears of the jury where they had to decide when Gregory Mcmichel said that we did this in court, they actually read it as I did this. Or I was thinking this because if he said we he would be implicating. Travis McMichael are not a defendant. So that’s basically lame way of defining brutal rule. So that didn’t come out in court. So he probably may have used a racial slur at that point. Again, I don’t necessarily like these racial slurs, but at the end of the day, I’m not quite sure that he can say because he use a racial slur. That means he’s racist.

It may not mean that he’s racist, but it puts into question whether or not the shooting may have even in part, been racially motivated. If after you’ve shot someone and they’re on the ground bleeding and dying, and all you can say is the N word and all of your explicit language. I don’t see how the question of race or profiling doesn’t come up in this particular situation. I don’t think they were chasing him and saying, oh, look, a black man, let’s go ahead and chase him down. They might not have in their mind. Arbury was behaving questionably. But I think back to when I was active duty, I was stationed on the East Coast and right off base, there was a home, a mansion that was being built on the water, and it was open for anyone to walk into. It wasn’t secured or any sort because it was under construction, and you would have to drive past this mansion on a regular basis to get to base. And I remember just looking at that place and thinking, wow, who lives here? And what are they building over there? The curiosity got the best of me one Saturday, but I didn’t go by myself. I took a fellow Marine with me who was actually interested in that house as well. We just never knew. And we just happened to find out that Saturday and we were talking about the place and we thought, oh, we should swing by and see. We walk in there. And it’s like walking up to maybe not quite to Buckingham, but walking up to Buckingham in the sense that the driveway kind of goes around in a circle around this fountain in the middle of the driveway. And the house is huge, but it’s open to construction, and we just kind of park our cars and we just kind of generally walk up and look around and trying to see what they’re building and how many rooms. And how big is the curiosity got the best of us? And the owner saw us. I don’t know if he was in the back of the house and he was doing it all himself. Had he been anything like the McMichaels, who knows what would have happened to us? Because none of us were white. And thankfully, he was very nice. And he said to us, what are you doing here? And we just told him honestly, hey, we’re just so curious. This house is huge. It’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. And we’ve never seen a house this big under construction, and he’s like, oh, yeah, let me talk you around. And this is where the living room is going to be. And this is where that’s going to be. And there are three levels, and this is what we’re going to do and just was real chill about it. He probably didn’t have anyone stealing stuff from his house. And so he probably wasn’t quite as frustrated as these folks here in Setillo were.

But going back to the Arbery story, it should give every citizen pause. If you are looking at someone, behaving oddly in your neighborhood. And the first thing that comes to your mind is let’s chase this guy down with weapons that are obviously visible for anyone to see and just say, oh, I just want to talk to you. No one in their right mind is going to want to talk to you when you are so obviously armed. The racial tensions, particularly in Georgia, are rife. You could cut it with a knife. What makes you think he’s going to stop to talk to you? He doesn’t have to stop and talk to you. He doesn’t owe you anything. But as MCG said, you follow him in your truck, he’s on foot, and you’re following him in your truck for five minutes. And personally, I don’t see how even if it’s a small sliver considering. And I understand the rule that you just mentioned, but because it’s been confirmed that one of the defendants actually said this is what they said. I don’t see how race can’t be at least considered in small part as a motivating factor or perhaps a contributing factor, maybe not motivating, but contributing factor to this unfortunate situation. Yeah. And I wouldn’t totally disagree with you. Risk could be a contributing factor or motivating factor. I’m just saying that when I see men like Benjamin Crump, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, I think race baiting, I don’t think race and that’s unfortunate. That’s unfortunate because of what is in my mind what these men stand for. That’s what they do is race baiting. That’s exactly what it people like Amanda might have well been racial profile. And because these men get involved for someone like me, I’m going to look at like, I don’t believe one thing coming out of this man’s mouth because these men, to me, are really despicable. This is one of the reasons why the Black Lives Matter movement. People like Al Sharpton, people like Jesse Jackson, people like Benjamin Crump and Fill in black leader name. Here the reason why they’re doing not just America, but the so called black community is such a disservice is that they are distorting the real issue of racism, so much so that we can’t even have a conversation to deal with the real problem because they see race and everything, and they pull the race card for everything. And it doesn’t matter if you are as guilty as the devil himself, they’re going to defend you and make you a Saint. And so people who would like to or see the need to have a legitimate and productive discussion about race relations in the country cannot because it’s overshadowed by and taken over by the race baiting that these men do.

It’s the same thing with, for example, Black Lives Matter, the exact same thing. The issues that really need to get addressed the situation that black men find themselves in in this country or create for themselves in this country, how it can be addressed, what can be done if there are laws or things that need to change. None of us can really have a discussion about it because of the hyper focus on race, if that makes any sense. So in this particular situation, we have the possibility of race playing some factor, perhaps not principle, but a contributing factor, and we can’t even really discuss it because Benjamin Crump is involved, which is a shame, because racism does need to be addressed. Racism does need to be considered, but we can’t because Benjamin Crump is there. Well, here are some things they need to consider, Travis McMichael, and I think his father definitely Travis McMichael, because that came out in court that he has a concealed carrier permit. Gregory Michael being a former police, I’m assuming he has a civilian version of the concealed carrier permit. So these men are men that own guns, have guns and basically take them everywhere they go. Are you saying they didn’t have to open carry that shotgun? Is that what you’re getting at? No, not just that. I’m not saying that. Travis Michael said the shotgun was between the seat so no one could actually see the shotgun. I’m not quite sure where Gregory Michael had his revolver, but the shotgun was visible when they met in front of the vehicle, right when he came out. He did drop the shotgun when he was following Amari. I don’t think Amanda Berry could have seen that. At least he had a shotgun. But the point of making that these men are men that carry gun wherever they go. So the fact that they grab a gun might not necessarily say that. Okay. We’re going out to kill him. Right. Right. Okay. I see what you’re saying.

They also confronted a white man who appeared to be homeless who were fishing on a bridge near. I think it’s like highway 17 or whatever it is down in Georgia, and they actually got their guns and went and confront him because they thought he was the guy who was stealing all the stuff from the community. So they did confront the white guy as well. Travis Michael did had an encounter with Amara burial as well one evening when Amara actually went into the same home that was on the construction. So I’m saying all this to say this, I’m not ruling out race because the looks of it, the optics of it. It’s easy to say race, because think about what came out first. When this came out, a black man was running jogging in a community and tree. White men decided to grab guns and go after him and kill him. That’s basically was the story when it came out first, there were no context to the story. When it came out, it was more that he was jogging and three white men went out of it. Even Lever and James went to social media and said, oh, we can’t even jog. We’re literally hunted down. So again, that probably was the sum of race baiting when the story first came out. But I’m just simply saying, it’s easy to find race in this story. But I believe what I saw come out in court. What I saw basically from their initial statement to police, I heard a lot of frustration. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying that I hear a lot of frustration in their mind as the reason why they went over it. And that frustration led to what they claim that they were going to execute a citizen arrest.

Perhaps when you say frustration, perhaps another point that should probably be brought up is the fact that defund the police movement in this country has generated a lot of frustration in the bosoms or in the hearts of law abiding citizens, because every night on the news, we see looters and riders and people breaking and injuring and police with their hands tied, not able to do anything because those that are in leadership positions have decided that they are not going to prosecute those that commit those crimes, or if they do arrest them, they’re released within a matter of hours or a matter of days. It’s catch and release. And so that frustration probably has some root in the current state of policing in this country that is a direct result of the defunded police movement. Yeah, definitely.

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So let’s tie citizen arrest into this. What exactly is citizen arrest? Citizens arrest is in layman’s terms. It’s the ability for any citizen to stop or detain someone that they suspect of committing a crime. Now, when I pull up the Georgia criminal code, it has to be a suspected felony crime. So armed robbery, burglary, assault, battery, drugs, murder, kidnapping, rape those kinds of things. But from what I understand in Georgia, you have to see the person committing the crime. You cannot simply suspect the person of committing the crime. And so citizens arrest is the ability of any citizens to detain someone that has been caught or seen or that has been observed committing felony crime. You kind of keep them in place and hold them there until the cops get there. Now, from what I understand and from what I’ve read, the question of whether or not citizens arrest is still needed is questionable. Maybe back in the day when the country was maybe 25 or 50 years, old, however old it was back in Laura Ingalls days when the Magistrate or the lawyers or the judges only make their rounds to the areas every so few months, or maybe even once a year. Who knows? And if there were a crime committed, it would be the citizens who would get together and perform that citizens arrest. Today, you call the police, they’re there in like five minutes. Of course, minutes don’t matter when it’s seconds you really need. But generally you pick up the phone, you call them on when the police are there within five to ten minutes. Whether or not citizens arrest is still needed today is a question that has been brought up as a result of this particular trial of this unfortunate situation, because, as I said, there’s a question as to whether or not it’s still needed.

Yeah, and Georgia did change the citizen arrest laws because of this, it’s already been changed. It has been changed. But I’m going to read what the Georgia citizen arrest law was when this happened. And according to Fine law, it said, in certain situations, private individuals have the power to make an arrest without a warrant. Actually, this is a definition of citizen arrest. These types of arrests, known as citizen arrests, occur when ordinary people either detain criminals themselves or direct police officers to detain a criminal. While arrest by private citizens are subject to fewer constitutional requirements than an arrest by law enforcement officers, there are still rules apply failure to abide by these rules can result in civil and criminal liability for the arresting individual, so that’s according to Fine law, that’s what an arrest is. Is it still needed for today and what these men did and all these things kind of tie everything together here. So according to Fine law, again, he said, a person can arrest someone that they reasonably suspect of committing a felony, even if the felony did not occur in the presence of the individual making the arrest as long as the felony was actually committed and the individual making the arrest knew of the crime, a reasonable suspicion about the identity of the perpetrator will justify the arrest. However, if the crime did not, in fact happened, the person making the arrest could become civilly and criminally liable. In general, people can’t use citizen arrests for misdemeanors unless the misdemeanor involves the breach of the peace. Even these circumstances, however, individuals can only make arrests when they personally witness the criminal behavior and the breach has just occurred, or there’s a strong likelihood that the breach will continue. So according to Fine law, they’re saying, hey, if you’re going to make a citizen arrest, you better be sure that this crime happened. And it’s interesting because we need to tie George A law in this as well, because what it was before is that you actually have to have immediate knowledge of it. Then you can make a citizen arrest and you only can trace the person if the crime that the person commit was a felony. So therefore, Michaels had to see a Marath Albury commit a felony to chase him, to legally be allowed to chase him. But they didn’t. They didn’t. He came out in court that Gregory McMichael was actually sitting in the bed of his truck mending seat for his boat, and he saw Amanda Berry running past him. He recognized Amanda Berry as the guy who he was seen on videos that have been entering into homes. He went in and got his son. They grabbed guns and they went after him. There’s no point that he came out in court that you actually saw Amad a Berry committed a crime that day. They kept on going back to the fact that they saw him in there and Travis confronted him. They saw him on video in Greg Michael’s own words, he was talking to a police officer. This was before the incident. He was talking to a police officer. He was talking to the owner of the home on the construction. They were all just talking and saying on how much of a quote this guy is, and when the normal told him that he hasn’t taken anything, he said, Well, it is a criminal trespassing. Criminal. Just passing in Georgia is a misdemeanor. So the only thing that really saw a motherberry commit on that day, they didn’t see anything. But before that day was a criminal trespassing, which is a misdemeanor in Georgia. So you cannot chase for misdemeanor. You can chase for a felony because they didn’t see anything that make the chase of a martyrberry illegal.

I find it hard to imagine with Gregory McMichael’s police background and with Travis McMichael’s, at least some exposure to that, that they wouldn’t have known that. So I wonder if it’s the frustration that just got the better of them, or was it that they feel like because of their background, because of their police training, that somehow perhaps their heads were inflated and their ego got the best of them. And I can’t imagine being in law enforcement and not knowing that requirement, especially when they say they were trying to commit a Citizen’s arrest. It seems that you would know what citizens arrest actually is when you can do it, how you can do it legally if these are lawmen. Yeah, quite honestly, there are nuance around this because they’re not a lot of the code that was before because I remember listening to the child and the persecution and the defense interpret that law differently. What I just gave was the persecution interpretation that you only can chase if there’s a family. The defense has to have the two claws actually kind of different. They’re not two different claws, the same clause, but it’s almost like a good example is like the Second Amendment. When you say a well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed a lot of people separate the militia and the right of the people to keep on B arm kind of separate them gone people to a people kind of put everything together. So the militia, the people and people that don’t believe it. So the militia is not the people. It’s a situation like that you kind of have with this kind of clause where the defense is saying, hey, they had a right to chase and the prosecution saying, hey, they don’t have a right to chase. And because the law, what do you mean by immediate? The Constitution said, we have a right for speedy trial. But we have seen people wait two or three years before they go to child. So it’s the ambiguities of the English language, because you have immediate knowledge. What do you mean by immediate knowledge? The law didn’t define immediate, just like this Constitution didn’t describe speedy. So in a situation like that, I personally believe that the Virgin, the persecution get, because when I read it, that’s the sense I get that you have to have immediate knowledge. That means you have to be happened right there. Right. Then you can’t see the person a day or two later and they say, oh, I’m going to execute arrest on you because two days earlier you did this. The law doesn’t seem to give you that permission. But the difference seems like they were arguing something along that line.

So did these men know the law? They probably did, but they probably just didn’t interpret it the way the prosecution and hence the jury interpreted that’s a danger then sends arrest. That’s a danger then, because if that’s how they interpret the law, what’s to say that they’re wrong, especially if it’s not clearly defined. And so if you tack that along with the frustration and along with perhaps the ego that may come from being armed or having a police background, that makes Citizen’s arrest in today’s world quite a dangerous thing because you end up with a dead person. I’m not saying that Aubrey was perfect, but he certainly is the victim in this situation. Oh, yeah, I would agree. And I do believe that these men, just by what came out in court, the fact that they went and confronted a guy that was fishing because he looked homeless and he had a lot of things around him because there were a lot of burglaries and stuff like that going on in the community. These men are men. That quite honestly, the gun people say that if you wouldn’t go there without a gun, don’t go there with the gun. So if you’re going down the road and you wouldn’t go down the road without a gun, don’t go down the road with a gun. So definitely I believe there’s some ego that was here. There’s definitely a lot of frustration that was here. So I’m not defending these men. I hope it doesn’t come across like I’m defending them. These men are men that I believe that they were just frustrated and they had the means aka gun that emboldened them to confront somebody. Because I honestly believe that if they didn’t have a gun, I don’t know. Two way guy. I think people should carry their gun if they have a gun or whatever. Case me, I don’t have a problem with people having guns, but I honestly believe that if they didn’t have a gun, they wouldn’t go after a motorbury.

So, of course, normal people like you and me who are not lawyers is always a danger to take the law in your own hand. And even if you’re a lawyer, it’s still a danger to take the law in your own hands, because at the end of the day, in this country, it comes down to what twelve reasonable thinking people believe. So even if they interpreted that, hey, I can go after him because I’ve seen him commit a crime or I’ve seen him commit a family or whatever. At the end of the day, twelve reasonable people quote unquote, do not believe that those are the dangers of citizen arrest. Because let’s ask the Matt Michael, let’s ask Roddy Bryan, would you do this again? I’m sure they wish a million times that they could redo this. I’m sure, of course. So then being criminally liable or civilly liable for whatever happened. You’re talking about jail time. Travis McMichael was convicted of nine counts, one count of malice murder. I think it was like four counts of felony murder. They have some aggravated assault charges, kidnapping or attempted kidnapping. Prison. I mean, they’re burying him under the jail pretty much. If they don’t win an appeal, he’s 35. He’s going to be there for 40 more years, 50 years before he gone. His dad is 65. His dad probably going to slip on a banana appeal anytime soon and probably go not making light of death. I’m not simply saying this dad already lived most of his life. He is in the middle of his life, right. And back then, he had a three year old son, which is probably five now. Yeah, I’m just simply saying nobody.

Was it worth it that you went after this guy with a gun because he stole something? It’s not like Ahmad A. Berry was in the community. I’m not defending Amarry because Amari wasn’t the same, neither. But let’s say Ahmada Berry was the one who was commenting all these crime in the community. There’s no evidence that he was the one who did all these things. I do believe that he did some of them, but that’s neither here on the day. But let’s say that he did all of these crimes that were going on in the community. He didn’t kill anybody. He didn’t hurt anybody, so to speak. It was all misdemeanor, not physically. He was stealing. Yeah, even if you’re stealing, I don’t think that’s reason to be chased down. It’s reasonably frustrated. Frustrated? For sure. I understand, because quite honestly, I’ve never really had anything valuable stolen from me, so I don’t know the frustration, but you can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine that I would be frustrated if someone took my stuff, but to grab a gun and go after that person, take the law in my own hand. Under no circumstances does the law permit you to kill someone to defend your stuff anyway? Well, except people live in Texas, but I’m just simply saying what they did wasn’t wise. What they did wasn’t prudent. It wasn’t moral, it wasn’t Fame. It wasn’t the reasonable thing that a reasonable, rational person would do. Say, hey, here’s this guy running in my community, obviously running from the home that he always going into. Let’s go after him. I think most people would call the police and let the police angle it or if they’re going to follow, they’re not going to confront. But these men not only grab guns, they follow their confront. As I said earlier, I honestly believe that if a mandarberry was armed that day and he took out all three of these men, he would have a right to self defense. Because if you reverse this, I think this is probably Kyle written House 2.0 because let’s say Amar Abraham was the one who actually shot these men. I think Amar Aberi could have claimed selfdefense because these are men chasing him, literally for five minutes. Sure. So I believe he could have claimed self defense here.

So the danger of citizen arrest. I don’t think it’s too dangerous to go after it. That’s why we pay police officers to go. I’ll be a good witness, but I am not chasing anybody, especially chasing anybody with a gun. The McMichael has tried to claim self defense after the shooting, but I believe it is self defense law that you can’t be the aggressor and claim self defense. As MCG said, they followed Arbarie in the truck for five minutes, got out of the truck and confronted him. From Arbury’s perspective, these men are I mean, what are they going to do? Stop and ask me for a cup of coffee? No. These men are confrontational. They are seeking to, at least from Arbury’s perspective, seeking to attack. They’re threatening. They’re menacing. Arbury defended himself, and you could see in the video that he got some good swings in there. But unfortunately, that’s no match for a shotgun. Travis McMichael claims self defense because Arbury tried to reach for his gun. Now, anyone who is a self defender of any type or of any sort will agree that if someone is trying to take your gun, it’s reasonable to assume that they’re trying to take the gun so that they could neutralize you with it. However, if you’re the one pursuing the person, you’re behaving in a menacing type of way. You are the aggressor. If he grabs your gun. That’s not him behaving in a menacing way or in a threatening way that’s him defending himself. And I’m glad that the jury agreed. Oh, definitely. Because as I said earlier, I believe Amada Berwa have a right to defend himself by using that to force on these men.

And was it wise to say a MotorBi went and fight a guy with a gun? No. But in their own words, they trapped him like a cigarette. So what are his options? I would give anybody fight or flight, but you can’t flee anymore. Well, the argument could be made that when he went around the right of the truck, he could have kept on going to the right rather than circle around. That’s true. But they could have stayed in their home, too. That kind of bring me to something that came up in court over and over again is the butt for clause, because the reason why the neighbor was tried as well, because the way I understood, because it’s but for Claus, but for his involvement, a Marvel would have escaped it’s like the if. Oh, like if it wasn’t for right when we say if that and his defense lawyer did bring up a good point, we can. But for this to death. But for a mother, but not being in the community. But for Mcmichels didn’t chase him. But we can all these things to debt. But the facts remain that in their own words, they trap him like a rat. And when he defended himself, they shot him. He fought back and they shot him. And there are three rounds, two to the chest, one grazing round to the wrist. Now, I’m not sure if the grazing round to the wrist was also one that hit him in the chest. So there were just two shots fired. But when I watched the video, I heard three shots. I think there were three shots. Of course, I think it was buckshot. Good. Nice. I’m not quite sure that point blank range. He didn’t have a chance. He was dead before he hit the floor. So I’m not quite sure. I know one of the shops actually went through a window in a neighbor’s home, but I don’t want to say miss, because I guess it was so close the shot didn’t have time to spread. So maybe he missed one. But I know there’s one shot that he got shot under the shoulder, like under the arm. I think one was in the abdomen or something like that, but I don’t know where the third one went, but maybe that one missed around, went into a neighbor’s house and they didn’t charge them for that. I mean, if they’re going to throw the book at them, they may as well charge him for that, too. Endangerment wasn’t written accused of endangering McGuinness because was it McGinnis or who? No, it was the jump kick man. Oh, no, that was considered. No, that was jump Kickman shooting. Yeah, there was six or five charges for written house, and they dropped the gun charge. Okay, but I think it was jump Kickman.

Yeah, it doesn’t matter. They for a long time, but still, I didn’t realize that around. See, now that’s dangerous. You are firing your weapon, which demonstrates that the McMichaels, of course they were fighting for the gun. If you’re fighting for the gun, you probably shouldn’t be pulling the trigger because you have absolutely no control where the muzzle is pointed. One of the Cardinal rules of gun safety is to treat every weapon as if it were loaded. Never point your weapon as something you don’t intend to shoot. I don’t know if that was a miss or if that’s just him panicking and pulling the trigger, wanting to get something done or scare him away. But if it went into someone else’s house now, you’re not just going after Arbie, you’re going after with such a blind rage and a blind, maybe not blind, but just a rage to where you’re endangering other people. So this whole idea of frustration, as you brought up is clearly demonstrated in that. Yeah, but in all this, let’s say, Michael, we know that they’re the ones who started this.

They started running, but let’s talk a little bit more about William. Brian Roddy Bryan, because what he actually did was got involved in a third party situation. Well, you can argue that Michaels actually got involved in a third party situation because a MotorBi ran out of a neighbor’s home, not their home. The neighbor’s home that was on the construction, not their home. They got involved. Then Roddy Bryan got involved with the chase that they started. We already established that it’s not wise necessary to execute citizen arrest. I would say that it’s wise to execute citizen arrest, maybe under a very few unlimited circumstances, like you’re defending an elderly from someone who’s beating them up. And, you know, without a shadow of doubt, who is the aggressor who started this and you’re getting involved, something that is so egregious that it’s shocking to the soul that it doesn’t make sense that you don’t get involved, but even that take that with a brain of salt make up your mind what you want to do, but getting involved because Roddy Bryan actually get involved here, so they’re kind of tied together. Citizen Ras get involved.

What do you think? This one is tough for me? Because I am one to think that if you see something happening, you should get involved. However, this whole idea of not my circus, not my monkeys. There’s some wisdom there, too. Getting involved in a situation like that with people who are hot headed who are obviously not necessarily in control of themselves. That’s not wise. And so I don’t know if Brian was trying to be a good neighbor. I don’t know if he had a chip on his shoulder or there was some frustration there, as well, but in this particular instance, he should not have gotten involved at the same time. Had he not gotten involved and taken the video, they would have never, I imagine. I suspect they would have never been charged. They would have never been tried. They would have never been found guilty because the only reason, from what I understand, I could be wrong. The only reason that they pursued this matter was because he leaked his own video. And when they saw the video, they were like, hey, wait a minute. And they decided to go ahead with legal proceedings. So on the one hand, he shouldn’t have gotten involved on the other. If he hadn’t, it would have been the McMichaels versus a dead man. And there probably would not have been justice for Arbury at that point, had he not gotten involved.

Yeah, dead men tell no tales, but at the same time, the butt for claws. Maybe a motherboard would have gotten away. Another thing to consider. Sure, but we have a saying in the Caribbean, don’t trouble trouble unless trouble trouble you. It’s the same thing as my trouble unless trouble troubles you. And that’s exactly what Roddy Brian did. He trouble trouble. But trouble didn’t trouble him. So my rule for me, personally, I’m not going to trouble trouble unless trouble trouble me. So if you’re going to come into my home uninvited, that trouble is troubling me. So I’m going to trouble trouble back. But in many circumstances, my rule is going to be not my circus, not my monkeys. Unless I know that this is so shocking to the soul. Let’s say, for example, earlier last year in Philadelphia, they came out that a lady was being raped on a train. And with people watching, that’s crazy to me, I don’t think I could have sat around and not get involved in something like that. That is something that’s so shocking to the soul that even if you don’t try to stop the guy, you call the police. Something in Florida, there’s this guy. He wasn’t all that dear in terms of his sanity. But he went into a retention pond walking and Jones. And there were a group of young people, 1614 old kids taught in him and told him they’re not going to help him. They could have called the police. There’s something you’re going to probably want to get involved in. But for most things, two people aggregate the side of the street, two people arguing in Walmart, two grown footmen fighting. Don’t get involved, call the police, separate yourself, be a good witness. For most things. Don’t get involved. But maybe stuff that is so shocking to the soul that you can’t sleep at night if you don’t get involved, maybe. But weigh the cost. Weigh the cost. Because I can bet you that Roddy Brown and he’s sitting in jail right now. Oh, wish it’s going over in his head over. And he said he could have just stayed in his garage and keep on doing what he was doing that Sunday afternoon and not got involved. Most things, God forbid. But I’m not planning to get involved in almost nothing. It has to be so shocking involves kids or involves the elderly that I’m like, okay, I need to get involved in this. And for most things that I might get involved in, my involvement might be pull out my phone and call Nine one one, maybe some things I might have to get physically involved, but that is even lower on the percentage poll and stuff. I’ll quickly call Nine one one rather than get involved physically, because especially in this country where it’s so easy to be sued and so easy to be all these laws and claws and stuff like that, everyone has to make that decision for themselves.

I remember telling you a story of a little bit of a social experiment that was taking place. There was a child crying at the front of a grocery store near the door and a man walked up to the child, saw the child crying and stared at the child, looked like he was thinking about it for a second and then walked away. And a journalist who saw the entire encounter pulled him aside and asked him, hey, you saw that child crying? Why didn’t you help that child? Because later on, a woman came and helped that child who had been separated from his mother. I think his mother, I’m pretty sure maybe her mother. Either way, the journalist asks him, Why didn’t she get involved? And he said, Are you kidding? If I help that kid now, I’m a kidnapper or child rapist or this or the other. I could be so easily incriminated, so easily accused. It’s easier just to walk away, which is sad. But that’s the reality of the country that we live in right now, as you said, so easy to be sued. So easy to be accused of something that you didn’t do. And even if you get off, even if you get off, your life is ruined, just being prosecuted. Prosecution is the punishment. Yeah, we’re going to have an episode on Kylewitten house verdict, but just the weight of being persecuted is enough. And then the societal casting as a back sheet. Let’s say these men got off where they go to work. They’re ruined. The guys are completely ruined. You got to have to go in hiding for a while because Target is going to be in the back and all these things. As I say, nobody wins here. A young man is dead. His family is devastated. Two men are going to be buried under the jail, particularly if they don’t win their appeal. They’re going to be buried under the jail. One you could say he has already lived a full life. He’s just going to live the remainder of his life behind bars. But Travis McMichael is a father of very young children. Those children are now pretty much fatherless. They’re going to be raised without a father. His family is devastated. Nobody wins here. Nobody wins here.

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so Travis Michael was found guilty on one count of malice murder, four counts of felony murder, two counts of abrogated assault, one count of false imprisonment and one count of criminal attempt to commit a felony. Gregory Michael, Travis father was convicted of all except the malice murder. William Roddy Bryan was convicted of all except the malice murder, one of the family murder and one of the abroad assault charge. All these men except the case is not overturned on appeal. Somehow, one thing we need to understand about appeals and stuff like that, especially when a jury has found him guilty. An appeal is not going to reach the case. The appeal is basically struck in that the law was followed faithfully, carried out correctly in the case. So it is very hard to win an appeal in a Jewish child. I know that William Braddy Brian make several motions for miss trial during the trial because as I said, Jesse Jackson was in the court one day they were demonstration outside of a courthouse, and he made some statements there, and he asked for Mr. Trial because the demonstration, he believed that the Jewee can hear the demonstration outside when they’re in the jewelry room and stuff like that, none of that was proven to be true. But all these separate motions for mischief that were made and there were several of them in terms of the prosecution brought in some evidence and stuff like that, that it was kind of a determined June discovery that these shouldn’t be brought in kind of murky waters kind of way to make a motion for Mistral there as well. So there are definitely some areas here that a lot of motions that were made for mischievous, that an appeal would definitely have to look over. So is there a possibility? Yes. But from what I understand, it’s very difficult to get an appeal, but I would say definitely. I don’t think Jesse Jackson and all these guys should have been there. But as I said, the jury has spoken and these men have been found guilty, at least Travis McMichael of all counts and the other two, at least on following the murder, is just enough alone to put them away forever. And they found several accounts on them.

But I would say before you start beating the chest and think that you’re better than these men because, of course, as I said, it was frustration. It was ego. It was a lot of things that I believe motivated these men to go after a mannerbury. And I’m saying that based upon the evidence that I heard read in court when they transcribe the police interview. And these were like pages of pages of them recounting to the police what happened, telling them what happened and when these were reading, quote, what I got from what I’m hearing is ego. What I’m gutting for what I heard was, hey, I have a gun. I’m going to defend myself if something happened. So the fear of confrontation is removed to some degree in my mind what they’re saying because they have a gun. But before you go beating your chest, thinking that you’re better than these men who, according to the outcome of the case, are murderers. We too one day will stand before a judge. These men stood before a judge. They stood before a jury and they were found guilty. One day we will stand before the eternal judge, and you will not have a presumption of innocent. These men when they were in court had him of the gulians whose blood pilots had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered said unto them, supposedly that these galleons were sinners above all the galleons because they suffer such things. I tell you nay, but except he repent, he shall all likewise perish all those 18 upon whom the Tower of Salon fell and flew them thinking that they were sinners above all men that dwell in Jerusalem. The Bible says he again, I tell you nay, but except he repent, he shall all likewise perish. Bible make it clear that when you stand before eternal judge that accept that you repent, you shall all likewise perish except you be found in Christ. As I said, we’re not innocent until proven guilty. We are guilty and cannot be proven innocent. We can only be declared innocent when we are in Christ. The Bible declared Second Corinthians five and verse 21, for he had made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. We can be declared innocent, listener. We can be declared innocent, but it’s only if we repent and turn to Jesus Christ and repentant faith. We will end this episode by playing the judge reading the verdict for Travis, Michael, Gregory, Matt Michael and William Roddy Bryan and do me a favor when the judge say Travis McMichael or Gregory Matt, Michael or William Roddy Bryan. Imagine that was your name. Put your name, your full legal name that the government will call you by in that space and hear the judge say guilty, guilty guilty

I’m going to go ahead and address each one of these verdict forms separately. First verdict form I have is the state of Georgia versus Travis Mcmichel. Mr. Mcmichael, please stand verdict is as follows in the spirit court of Glenn County, State of Georgia, the state of Georgia versus Travis McMichael case number Cr jury verdict malice we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count two felony murder we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count three felony murder we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count four felony murder we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count five felony murder we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count six aggravated assault we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count seven aggravated assault we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count eight false imprisonment we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael guilty count nine criminal attempt to commit a felony we the jury find the defendant Travis McMichael, Guilty

as to Gregory Mcmichel in the Sphere Court of Glenn County, the state of Georgia versus Greg McMichael case number Cr, 20043 three jury verdict form count one, malice murder we the jury find the defendant Greg Mcmichel not guilty felony murder we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael guilty count four felony murder we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael guilty count five felony murder we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael guilty count seven aggravated assault we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael guilty count eight false imprisonment we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael guilty count nine criminal attempt to commit a felony we the jury find the defendant Greg McMichael, guilty

as to William R. Bryan in the superior court of Glenn County, State of Georgia, State of Georgia versus William R. Bryan case number Cr, 20043 three jury verdict four count one malice murder we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan not guilty count two felony murder we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan not guilty count three felony murder we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan guilty count four felony murder we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan guilty count six aggravated assault we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan not guilty count seven aggravated assault we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan guilty count eight false imprisonment we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan Guilty count nine criminal attempt to commit a felony we the jury find the defendant William R. Bryan guilty

we are all guilty before God except for the Grace of Jesus Christ. Would you trust him today?

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