Episode 67

The COVID-19 pandemic has left a litany of casualties in its wake in every sector of society: personal, professional, economic, academic, social, and medical. In response, many governments have issued vaccination mandates, requiring the vaccine for reentry into participation in most aspects of communal life. Many have complied, and many are outraged. In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we explore whether the mandates are compatible with the American Way. Is there are precedent for vaccine mandates? How should Christians respond? Join us on this episode as we tackle this hairy issue and more!

Well, and I think that goes all the way back to the question of do we trust our government? And I don’t.

thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers Podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have clear view of the cross. This is episode 67 of the Removing Barriers Podcast. And in this episode, we will discuss vaccine mandates and the American Way, and we’ll find out our vaccine mandates as American as Apple pie and Coke. Joining us to discuss this is MD, MD. Welcome back. Thank you. You’re back. I’m back. Yeah. Well, yes, I am. It seems like every time we have you here to discuss something is always these controversial topics. It does seem like you are setting me up sometimes. No, I’m not setting you up. I just believe that you are more than welcome prepared to answer these questions. Maybe than most flattery will get you nowhere. But I’ll do my best.

All right, let’s dive right into it. Is there a history of vaccine mandate in the US when you sent me these questions? I did some research on that, and I found probably close to 1000 entries just in a matter of ten minutes that talk about vaccine mandates. So yes, there is. But it’s very important to know what kind of vaccine mandates, what kind of vaccines and why they were mandated. All right, let’s go into that then. Well, the universal answer to that is that they were vaccine mandates for children or adults attending schools when there was an illness, which we were in the process of trying to eradicate. And as far as I can tell, in every case, the vaccine side effects were well documented. It had been well tested. The government was fairly well trusted rather at the time. So there are a lot of political differences between the current vaccine mandates and all of those historical mandates. But some typical examples of those mandates are things like chicken pox smallpox vaccine, the salt vaccine against polio, things that are known to have been very deadly and to have been almost totally eradicated with probably fairly little side effect. I didn’t see a lot of evidence of side effect of those things. The thing that was noted in every article written about it was that there are always side effects. There are always people susceptible to side effects. It’s a percentage you will always run into. But knowing that it was a very deadly disease and that we were eradicating the disease and those side effects were known. Parents did have a choice. And I know my parents when I was a child didn’t choose to not have me vaccinated. My father had polio as a child. His father died when he was five years old from polio. So when that vaccine was available, they definitely were in favor of that vaccine. Chicken pox smallpox. We were small town country people, and we were definitely susceptible to those things. So we took them. But we knew people who didn’t. And in small towns, the pastor will always know an awful lot about an awful lot of people. So we knew who didn’t take them. My parents didn’t have any worries about that because it wasn’t vaccinating. The recipient against giving it to someone else. It was vaccinating, the recipient against getting it.

Are you familiar with the case, Z-U-C-H-T-V. King? No, I’m not. So that was the case that was I think it went all the way to the Supreme Court out of San Antonio, Texas, where there was this schoolgirl, Roslyn Zu. I guess her parents refused to give her the smallpox vaccine, and because of such, she was bad from attending both public and private school. I’m just going to read an excerpt from this. It said audiences of the city of San Antonio, Texas, provide that no child or other person shall attend a public school or other place of education without having first presented a certificate of vaccination purporting to the act. Under these audiences, public official excluded Rosalindut from a public school because she did not have the required certificate and refused to submit to vaccination. They also caused her to be excluded from a private school thereupon. Roslin brought the suit against officials in the court of the state. The bill charges that there was no occasion for requiring vaccination that the audiences deprived plaintiff of her Liberty without due process of law by in effect making vaccination compulsory and also that they are avoided because they leave to the Board of Education discretion to determine when and on or what circumstances the requirement shall be enforced without providing any rule by which that board is to be guided in its action and without providing any safeguards against partiality and oppression. And as I said, that was in 1922 that’s almost 100 years ago. I think the case was eventually dismissed by the Supreme Court. But it sounds a lot like today. It does. But whether it is like today would require understanding what exactly their objection was to that vaccine. Well, I’m not quite sure it matters because the fact is that they were objecting to a vaccination that they feel like they should have personal Liberty of refusing. At least that’s the way you come across to me, as I think that’s the argument today against the Corvid vaccine, most people believe that they should have the personal Liberty of refusing it or taking it. You know, one question does come to mind from what you just read. And again, I’m not familiar with that case, and I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t even play one on television. None of us are lawyers, so I am very handicapped in understanding everything that I hear. But still, the question would come to mind. Why did they think that the public health authorities should be able to extend that exclusion to private schools? It would seem to me that the equitable answer would have been it’s up to the individual private school. But should they choose to refuse acceptance of the student, they’d have the right to do so. Well, I think one of the reasons I’m probably going to get this a little bit later on in this is that you’re talking about smallpox. That was a small park vaccine. And for that pandemic, the height of that, the death rate or the mortality rate was what 30%? It was high. There’s no question and what’s the COVID mortality rate? 1.5% much, much lower. No question. I think if you were looking for an analog to it, it might be something like one of the hemorrhagic fevers called Marburg, because it was first surfaced in Marburg, Germany. I believe it was Germany, but at any rate in the area of Marburg, it has a 30% mortality rate. It has a nearly 97% transmission rate, so probably that would be a much more modern analog. And Marlbourg is definitely in the wild today. There is no question about it, and there’s no cure for it. So unlike that vaccine treatment, there is no treatment for Marburg that works. But Marburg certainly has the same specific mortality rate, transmissivity rate, all of those things. It sounds like as smallpox had. Then again, there’s no vaccine for Marburg. So as an analogy that breaks down, there is no way to mandate a vaccine that doesn’t exist, right?

Just to get back to the question, though, because based on some of the research have done, it seems like, as I said in the opening, quite honestly, it seems like vaccine mandates in the US are as American as Apple pie and Coke, because I see going back all the way to 1777. Vaccine mandates come all the way down to Kova. There have been tons of vaccine mandates, and I think you hit the nail on the head with one thing, though, because I do think that the trust in the government and maybe even the size of the government plays a role in the people pushing back on this one. I think there were a lot more trust in the government and a lot more trust in buyers than what we’ve seen today would have called the vaccine. I would agree with you that the vaccine mandates they’ve been around. They’ve been accepted. They probably are as American as Apple pie, and I don’t like Coke, but it doesn’t matter. They’re probably as American as Coke. And I intended in a little while to get to that issue of the differences between then and now, but I think you’ve hit on it very well. There is a tremendous lack of trust. I’m going to move to a different form of testing than pharmaceutical testing, because I used to be a software test engineer and as a software programmer, I think you’ll understand this to some extent. You do your Alpha testing, if you call it that. And that’s what you do when you have the raw script in front of you in a test lab totally isolated from the real world. You test it to find out if it does what it’s supposed to do. Once you have done that, then you test that with a willing participant group. It’s called beta testing. And that’s a fairly modern phenomenon that may include 10,000 recipients, but they are willing recipients. And I think what we’re running into with the mandates for the vaccine is that beta testing has not been done. And so that is what we’re doing right now. When we mandate that as a vaccine, we are saying, oh, yeah, we don’t know what it will do. We don’t have a database, we don’t have a history. And vaccine testing has usually had a ten year history before it was released into the wild. So here we are with a vaccine that isn’t even a year old that doesn’t have any kind of a history, ignoring the fact that the mortality rate, the transmissivity rate, and a lot of other things are nowhere near as bad as a lot of the things we’ve vaccinated for in the past. We have the problem of we don’t know what its downstream results are going to be. We don’t know what the vaccine is going to do to us. Throw in the fact that we don’t trust our government. And I looked into the reasons why. And I looked into the causality and the correlation of events that led to all of this. And I’m at a loss to determine whether it was Dr. Fauchy and the Kobe 19 disease, the vaccines being generated in such a big hurry, a lot of opportunistic politicians deciding this is a great time to take a lot more control than is even justified by the Constitution. I don’t know which of those came first. I don’t know which of those is causative of the others. Or maybe they’re all just correlative they certainly did fall all at one time. And with the media not telling the truth clearly. And I’m going to go on the limb as a conspiracy theorist here with a stolen election that put an awful lot of people into office in an awful lot of parts of the country, giving them totally unprecedented power over us. I think it’s destroyed any hope we ever have of being willing to take a vaccine that the government assures us is not going to harm us. But, oh, by the way, we can’t prove it because we don’t have the data because we don’t want to wait on the data because we don’t want to test for it, because we don’t want to know what the data says. You just have to take it because we told you to.

Well, here’s some stuff I think I don’t think that we can prove either way what an election was stolen or not. So let’s put that out there. The Disclaimer we’re not claiming that the election was stolen and we’re not claiming that he wasn’t. Well, you aren’t. Well, I am. And the removal barriers are not. But I think there’s a series of events that happened to kind of make this a perfect storm. And I think that if we’re going to go there, we’re going to have to first mention the elephant in the room of Donald Trump. I think Donald Trump and the media portrayal of Donald Trump created a perfect storm. That when COVID happened, then the media can use that as a political weapon because dalanchalm, for whatever reason, was very divisive or even if he wasn’t, he come across that way or the people appear that way. So as we mentioned in another episode, you either love him or you hate him. They’re not much people in the middle. You have people on the far end of Donald Trump, some people you mentioned the word Donald Trump, and they literally curse some people. You mentioned Donald Trump, and they rejoice. So I think because of that divide that was happening in the country, then COVID hits because I remember this is what I hate about when you make everything politics as we do in this country. I remember I hear Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and many other Democrats say, oh, I’m not going to take that vaccine. I’m not going to do that. I even have a co worker who I remember he and I were talking and I was telling him that I’m not planning to take this vaccine when he comes out. And this was maybe a year ago or probably August, September of 2020. And he was expressing the same thing to me. But for me, it was just that I just didn’t feel comfortable because of the speed at which this thing was being produced. But for him, obviously, it was political statement because now that Biden is in power now that his party is in power, he’s pushing for the vaccine. He’s pushing the vaccines, encouraging people to take the vaccine. As a matter of fact, some former coworkers and current coworkers wanted to meet up because obviously, we haven’t seen each other in person for probably almost two years now. And they say, hey, you want to meet up at the restaurant and hang out? So I said, I don’t mind coming, but because I know the people in the group, I say, you know what? I haven’t taken the vaccine, and I’m not planning to take it anytime soon. I just want to put that out there. I also put a caveat that I believe that’s my business. I didn’t have to share that with anybody. But I felt led to share that with you guys because I kind of know that there’s some guys and girls in the midst that kind of prefer not to be around people that are unvaccinated. And this is what one of my coworkers reply said, I am not prepared to take my chances around anyone who choose to be unvaccinated. And I’m like I didn’t reply, but I’m like, okay, but I use that to show that here’s a person who told me a few months before the vaccine came out that I am not going to take the vaccine. The vaccine came out, his party getting power, and now he’s pushing the vaccine. And I saw that with Kamala Harris. I saw that with Joe Biden, and I’m like, for me, decision is not political. I don’t care who’s in the White House, I wasn’t planning on taking it, what a Trump won or if Trump lost, I don’t care. I just don’t feel comfortable with the speed at which this thing has been developed, and I rather just sit back and watch and wait and see what happened.

I agree with you on every point of that. I have opportunity to teach science as a substitute teacher, and I tell the students that anytime you have to capitalize the science as opposed to just teaching science, it is no longer about science. It is about politics, it is about a cult. It is about some other belief system than just the factual observation of what does science tell us. So why do you think that some people, especially people on the right, believe that vaccine or unamerican because from history doesn’t seem that way. I think that probably the people on the right who say that are mischaracterizing their position. And I think their position is probably very similar to ours, at least those with whom I’ve spoken that it is not that it is an Americanrican, except in forcing us to take something which hasn’t been proven to not harm us. That would certainly be my position that the unAmericanness of it is that no, this isn’t a known vaccine. This isn’t with known side effects. This isn’t with long term data and mandating that we take it with, basically us assuming all the risk. I don’t think anybody even on the left thinks that the government will ever accept that. Oh, yeah. We just killed 15,000 people by giving them a vaccine, and it’s our fault. Even on the left thinks the government is ever going to say that. So truly, if we take it and we suffer results that are not expected, it’s on us. What do you think, though, if we go back, say 1922 with King versus or going back to 1777, when the first vaccine mandate was handed out by Tickworth George Washington, then do you think they had data on this or, as we mentioned before, you just more trust in the government back then, because if we can say we don’t have the data on the coveted vaccine, so we’re not going to take it. It seems like back in 77, they wouldn’t have any data. Neither. One of the issues that a science teacher who looks at the past always runs into is the question of not so much how sophisticated was science then because we have people like Isaac Asimov we have people like you could name any number of scientists from the time from 150 years ago. We have those people. But the question is how much of what they were doing was even able to reach the general populace in terms of knowledge. So we may have had the data, but it may not have been available to the people who took the vaccine. So I think then you have to come down to the conclusion that for those who didn’t know, probably the majority of the population, their acceptance of the vaccine was I trust the government. They wouldn’t deliberately do me harm. And I think that quite a few of us think this government would very deliberately do us harm. Dr. Fauchi definitely would deliberately do the world harm, allegedly. Well, his own writing say that long prior to his becoming known because of COVID-19, he wrote that the only way to save the world from its own ills was to 90% of the population.

Oh, wow. Do you have evidence of that? I don’t have that one. But I believe Dr. Rand Paul even brought that up in the Senate hearings with Dr. Fauche when Dr. Fauche told Rand Paul he was an idiot. Okay. I believe that’s where it was brought up, but I cannot tell you that for certainty, I can’t tell you where it came from. I don’t know. I think one thing that we probably need to make note of is the fact or maybe perhaps defining what is the American Way, because what the American Way meant back then, I don’t think mean the same thing today simply because of how divided and polarized we are in George Washington’s Day, or perhaps as recently as the American Way could be summed up in three words, we the people. But today, I don’t think that you will find that sentiment to be universally accepted within the American people. There’s a huge percentage of the population that has adopted ideology, ideas, governing principles that are antithetical to we the people, I. E. We’re the government. We know what’s best do this and shut up and do this for the good of everyone. Whereas the American Way at its root is we the people, give us the information or let us find our information and make up our minds for ourselves and let us live in that freedom or in that Liberty to either take it or refuse it. One of the reasons why we don’t trust the government or even our media. Well, it’s obvious why we don’t trust the media, right? It’s very blatant in terms of their bias in terms of the way they skew information so that we will lean toward one position or another. Media is easy. They are just clearly not trustworthy in that particular way. But when it comes to the government, it’s hard for us to put faith and trust in a government where many of its proponents are very vocal about this us versus them mentality. Many times when you hear the President speak or the people that work for him speak, the vice President speak, they say things like the reason this pandemic is continuing is because these right wingers, these people won’t go get vaccinated. So the enemy is not the unvaccinated, or they will say things that will demean or bully or shame people who want to take a few extra months to figure this out for themselves and not just swallow everything, hook, line and sinker and make decisions for themselves. And so when you have a government that’s willing to create that kind of divide, it’s hard to put your trust because their interest is not in we the people, it’s we the people and you peons need to fall in line. That’s what they’re really saying. You can’t put your trust in that type of government the way that they’ve gone about putting out this vaccine, putting out these mandates in order to have everyone take this vaccine has created a huge sense of distrust in their ability to govern even what we perceive to be their care for us. I think if you ask your average American, they are not convinced that their government cares a hoot about them at the state or federal level. And so mandates are contradictory to the American way in that particular sense. And MD brought it up as well. The kind of mandates is important to bring up, too, because you could say mandates go way back to 1770, something when George Washington wanted to make sure he inoculated the Continental Army against what was it? Was it smallpox? I’m not sure. Was it smallpox? Okay. You’re talking about a bunch of men who are living in close quarters, breathing and sweating and bleeding all over each other, fighting in wars. And it makes sense that you would protect yourself from a disease that can eradicate everyone when you’ve got a war to win. That’s very different from creating something called a vaccine passport where you can’t even go into the local restaurant. If you don’t show your vaccine passport, what’s to stop this divisive government from saying, oh, yeah. We don’t like you so you can’t go in. You. You’re good. You can come in. What’s to stop them from furthering this us versus them mentality from penalizing the people they don’t like and helping or embracing the people that they do like.

The problem with mandates is that we don’t agree on who is who we don’t agree on a basic level of civility and how we treat each other. We know that because when you hear them talk on TV, it’s fire. All they need is pointy ears and Dragon scales. And they’re a Dragon because they’re breathing fire, they’re breathing, cursing and these hateful things that separate people one from another. That’s why this is contradictory to the American way. What’s to stop them from eradicating the people they don’t like under the pretense of stopping this pandemic or stopping this disease or public health or quote for your safety, we can’t even trust our government to do that basic civility. So do you think that’s why there’s such a big pushback on this mandate? Because another thing that is as American as upper Pie is pushback against mandate, because as you can research the history of mandates, vaccine mandates in the US, there have always been a group that pushback, whether it’s for medical or religious reasons.

Do you believe that’s the reason why we have been such a strong pushback? I think that’s part of the reason. Look at the lack of transparency. The vaccine technology that we’re talking about right now is the mRNA vaccine, which doesn’t require the use of what do they call those cells that I’m blanking here. But the conventional way to create vaccines is to use those cells and then to have them multiply and then get the vaccine going in that particular way. This particular vaccine uses mRNA technology where they basically trick the body into making the antibodies itself without having to introduce dead or weak for exactly attenuated cells. But the problem is that they’re not being completely open and honest about it. Just last month, it was put out by Project Veritas that these vaccines still use either in their production or in their testing aborted fetal cells in order to produce them. Now, if you were being open and honest about how these things were done and being open and honest to the American people, wouldn’t you at least put that information out there because you know that there are people out there that refuse vaccines for that reason, why is it that this company has to go undercover in order to find out this information, even if that’s not a big deal to you, that would create a question in someone’s mind. What else are you hiding? What else have you not told us like MD would say how many people have died from this vaccine or have had adverse reactions that you’re not telling us about? If you can hide this particular piece of information, this is where the pushback is coming from. And Unfortunately, I don’t think the pushback is as strong as we would like to think it is, because more and more Americans are taking the vaccine. No one likes to be singled out as that one person on your street that’s not vaccinated, and you end up with a Scarlet letter on your forehead or on your chest. No one likes that. And so people are feeling pressured to take the vaccine. But I think part of the pushback is just why can’t you be straight with us? Why can’t you be honest with us? And of course, the argument is that when has the government ever been straight with you? I get that. But I suppose that’s part of the pushback. Well, I think you can throw in another factor, too, and that is that when Project Veritas does those projects and get information, which tends to incriminate or at least to make public very underhanded behavior, the government, in almost every case, prosecutes Project Veritas for getting to the truth. Well, there was a quote from it was a Disney movie, I think so. I’m not going to say which one it was, but was talking about. Let’s see an intelligence agency that is afraid of intelligence. Classically, not a good thing. Well, a government that is afraid of the people being able to govern is classically, not a good thing. And we are historically the only nation in the entire world, as far as I know that has ever had a government of the people you commented on, we the people that’s the we the people of whom we’re speaking, and we aren’t governing any longer. And I agree wholeheartedly. I am one of those people who believes that the government could not care less what happens to us, not individually, not as large blocks of people. If the block is large enough and in enough argument with the government and enough pushback to the government, then the government cares. They want us dead. Well, things are changing now because there is some pushback from some people on the left that hold to black lives Matter ideology that are pushing back against the passports and the mandates, because what’s their argument? It unfairly ostracizes or puts out people of color because their vaccination rates are much lower. Is that their argument? So there’s a little bit of pushback coming from Black Lives Matter against the mandates and against the passports in that particular way as well. I don’t think it’s enough to make much of a difference, but there’s also pushback on that particular end as well. It’s kind of ironic, I think, and maybe kind of a peripheral to what we’re discussing here. But Walt Kelly was a cartoonist who wrote a series for years called Pogo, and a lot of people know him from Pogo. He wrote one book called The Jackassid Society Black Book, and it was about the Nazis, the Italian, or what they called them. There was a name for their political system. Gestapo? No, that was German. That was Gestapo. Yeah, I can’t remember what they called the Italians and then the French, the Vichy French, and then the extreme left and right in America during World War II, which surprisingly, both fought against us being in the war. An interesting thing, he pointed out in the cartoons in that book, and it was a very convoluted book. But the thing interesting, he pointed out, was that at some point all of those groups agreed on some point. Well, I would agree wholeheartedly being. I don’t think we give anything away. I’m the only white guy in the group here that black lives matter. The question of black lives matter, but where we get beaten on is when we say all lives matter. So I would agree wholeheartedly with Black Lives Matter. And if black people are less vaccinated than everybody else. And I’ve heard that before, and I don’t argue that then they are at greater risk, but they’re also more often ostracized by vaccine passports.

Black lives Matter is a very political. Obviously, when you say Black Lives Matter, it’s just political, purely political. Why is there a divide in political views when it comes to the mandates? Mcg, you said earlier that you don’t even understand why it’s political in the first place. But why do you think that there’s a political divide? Because it seems like, okay, black Lives Matter is only against the mandates and the passports because it affects black people negatively, or they perceive that it ostracizes them and affects them negatively. People on the so called right are refusing the vaccines more for ideological reasons, like we the people. It’s not really a political thing, although that line can be blurred a little bit. Why is it even political in this country? I don’t think it’s as political in other countries as it is here. Why is the political divide? I think it’s because Firstly, Americans are political. I don’t think I know of another country that I would say probably most things in this country becomes political as an immigrant. I don’t understand it. To be honest. Some things in this country that are political is like in my country, it’s like whatever. It’s almost like if the left believe climate change is happening while the right believe climate change is not happening. If the left believe the sky is blue, then the right believe the sky is pink. It’s almost like you have to be polar opposite of each other. So why is the vaccine mandate political? Because quite honestly, as I said in another episode, because everything in this country seems to be political. But also, I think it comes down to this. I think it comes down to a group thing. A lot of folks in this country don’t have an independent thought on their own. They think whatever the media say or they think what the media tells them how to think or the political party tells them how to think. And it’s frustrating for me at times because I can look at stuff and like, just give me the fact and let me come up with my own opinions or my own conclusion. My opinion and my conclusion might be wrong, but they’re my own. I just don’t want people to full fed me anything as this is where you need to take this or anything. That’s why I don’t consider myself Republican. I don’t consider myself Democrat, I’m just a person that gives me the facts and let me make my own decision. So why is it that these things are political because the Americans are just political and I can’t even blame the politicians because if the people, if the people make a strong change, just like what we see happen in Virginia with the school thing. I believe that we’ll see a change in our politicians, but it’s the people that at fault are not a politician. And that’s what I disagree with all these policies. No, it’s the people. The people are the ones that vote in Donald Trump and the people are the one that voting in Joe Biden is the people.

You’re right. But the problem with that is that if you put it all on the people, you may completely absolve the media and people who are behind politicians with their particular agenda and their political aspirations that have a vested interest in sewing discord sowing disinformation in order to divide the American people. I grant you the American people bear the brunt of the responsibility, but we can’t absolve the media and the government and the people behind the government, these megacorporations and things like that that have a vested interest in separating the people. And I think another reason why it’s political is because I hate to sound pessimistic, but I think there might be very little in terms of ties that bond threads that bond that are holding us together as a country any longer. There was a time where we had shared values, shared culture, shared faith, maybe not everyone, of course, but at least broadly speaking, and all of those threads of the fabric, if you will, are beginning to weather away. And the only thing that we can really hold on to is political. So everything boils down to the political. That might be why it’s political. Yeah, but who are the media attacking? Maybe attacking is not the right word. But the media is directing their misinformation and their bias to the people. The politicians and the people behind the politicians are directing their bias and the misinformation to the people. That’s why I’m saying it’s the people. I’m not saying that there’s not any operatives above that that are trying to divide the people. But if we are wise enough to spot that and the people bond together, they don’t have any power bond together with what, though, in terms of standing up for what’s right, standing up for what we can’t even agree on what’s right what they want. I don’t even know what bathrooms are supposed to be using for Christ, I give you that. But I’m simply saying that the people can make the change. And of course, we are not democracy. We are a Republic, constitutional Republic. So it’s not majority that created our government or whatever the case may be. But I’m simply saying is that if the people decide that, hey, the media and I’m not talking about right wing or left wing media, I’m talking about all of them that give us the facts, and we are going to take those facts and make educated decisions. I think we see a big difference because again, I brought up Virginia. I was listening to NBC. I think it was, and they were constantly pushed, oh, there was no CRT in Virginia school. There were no CRT in Virginia school. But why did young can win? Because the mothers who are educated and decided that when I say educated, I don’t mean College educated. I just mean they know about the situation. They know what the situation, that they see what’s happening in their communities and what’s happening in their school. And they have just woken up Mama beer and people decide, hey, we don’t want this in our schools. They could see through it exactly. They were educated in the sense that they knew what was going on. And I think when it comes to the pandemic, when it comes to this particular virus, the American people, for the most part, don’t know what’s going on beyond what mainstream media is telling them or what they might be able to find on a Google search, which is censored in the first place. So, for example, this is a multi pronged problem as well, because your average American myself included. When it comes to our level of scientific knowledge and understanding, we’re so far to many of the countries out there. So if you ask your average American, what does case mortality rate mean? What does viral load mean? What is an infection? And how does that fit into what we’re experiencing in this pandemic? Your average American won’t be able to tell you. So when the media comes in and says, oh, you know, COVID has a mortality rate of I don’t know. What would CNN say that was something completely drastic, 20% or whatever. And remember, under Trump every single day there was that COVID death ticker like they were always counting the numbers of how many people are dying from COVID to exaggerate it and scare people and cause them to react in fear, well, if your average American is taking in information and if we had that scientific information or scientific know how or understanding or education rather, and probably MD could speak to this a lot better. We could look at the information and see through what they’re lying to us about because, like going back to the CRT example, they could legally say CRT is not in the schools. They could legally say that because they don’t have the actual academic texts in the schools that people are studying. But if you’re in the classroom and they say a math problem like, oh, John gets stopped by the police two times. But Jaquan gets stopped by the police six times. What’s the percentage of times you know what I mean? So CRT is not in the schools, perhaps academically or at that upper level. But it’s certainly in there in terms of the math questions, the discussion questions the things that are coming from the teachers. But see if the people are educated about that, if the parents know about that, they could stand up and say, yeah, you don’t think that CRTs in the schools. But here’s what’s actually happening. I don’t think we have that same ability with COVID. I know I’m kind of connecting two things that are probably not connected here. I’m just trying to draw the correlation. We don’t even know the basic information about COVID from which we can make an educated am I making sense like an educated decision on it?

You are. And I’m going to make an assumption here. I’ve never asked you to how old you are, but I would guess that I probably am as old as the two of you combined, probably somewhere in that neighborhood. So I can tell you I’ve been voting for 50 years. I can tell you that as a student in the public schools in California, given the state of science in schools at the time and understanding the kids now learn science that we didn’t even know existed back then, I will still say that we had a grounding in biology, a grounding in chemistry, a grounding in physics, even in the fifth grade, like the scientific process very much, because when I was in the 6th grade, I won a first place in a state competition, in a science fair competition that involves having to actually formulate and perform and report on an experiment based on proving or disproving my hypothesis that’s a process. We use it at Academy now in the old Mini Association of Christian Schools now. But that’s rare. That’s very rare. And I won the first place in California in the 6th grade. I won it in the 7th grade. I wanted the 8th grade. I want it because I had very, very, very good teachers when I was even in the fifth grade in science. So when I started studying electronics, totally unrelated. Anything else I studied. But I was studying with a Ham operator when I was twelve years old. By the time I was 14 years old, I was designing and building my own transmitters from scratch with parts I can pick up here and there in junk bins. When I was 15 years old, I was designing and installing bumper beepers on cars that would allow me to track cars at a distance using my own radio direction finding equipment, which I designed and built. How many 15 year old kids do that nowadays? And I was not rare in the class when I started studying, there were 20 of us in that class and we were all in fifth grade. How many students get that opportunity now or get that encouragement now? And as a result, even given the level of knowledge across the country, when I was 18 years old, I joined the US Navy. That was the same year that President Nixon stepped down from office to avoid being impeached successfully. I’m certain I was a voter. I already knew about politics, and I will agree with you on this, MCG, that politics then did not divide the nation like it does now. I honestly have no idea what the politics of any one of my classmates, the members of my tennis team that I played on in high school, people that I knew in Navy boot camp, I have no idea what their politics was. It just wasn’t that big a deal. So you said earlier, it was kind of interesting. When I was in Navy boot camp, I was in San Diego, and it was spring, and there were close to 10,000 people in Navy boot camp at the time, in various levels of training, nine week training, all of us headed for Vietnam. Vietnam was still going. I am a Vietnam vet. Yes, I acknowledge that. Actually, I’m pretty proud of it. But here they’re not part of the story. But we had an outbreak of spinal meningitis in one of the boot camp companies, and they’re only 60 people in a company. But when you have 10,000 people rubbing shoulders and living in very close proximity and pretty much physically exhausted all the time because of the hours you’re working, you don’t take a risk with it. So mandated vaccine. All 10,000 of us over the span of a single day showed up to Sick Bay, and they just assembly lined us through with a massive pair of ampicillin injections and then took us out and marched us for the next 5 hours. Because if they hadn’t, we would have been crippled. It was that big an injection, but it also stifled any further cases of spinal meningitis and spinal meningitis. I don’t know if you’re familiar with what it does or not, but it at very least, is totally mentally debilitating to the point of not even being able to care for yourself any longer because of the extreme high temperatures, body temperatures that it generates or it just flat out kills. It’s a horrible disease. Amicillin is just a very powerful penicillin. It did a job, saved our lives.

All right, well, you’re listening to the Robin Barrier spot. We sit with MD and we’re discussing vaccine mandate and the American way. We’ll be right back.

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So we’ve been talking for a while about the history of the mandates, whether or not and why they go against the American way and who are the players behind this particular push for mandates? Md, what do you think the role of large pharmaceutical companies play in the push for these mandates? And in the roll out of these vaccines as far as the roll out of the vaccines go, I don’t know of any way that smaller companies than the large pharmas could possibly create enough of the vaccine quickly enough. Very possible. And I have absolutely no idea how much research or what the process of research is that had to be done for this vaccine to be generated. So I don’t know how large the company it would take to get the job done, but certainly the more complex testing is required, the larger the company is required to do it because you have to have more people involved in the stream as far as their role in the push for the vaccine. I think it’s got to be clear they’ve spent a lot of money putting the vaccine together. They see huge potential downstream profit in being the only company with the vaccine. There is certainly none. That is the only right now. So they’re all hoping that they will be the one that lives through all of this and still exists afterwards. They can’t recoup the money they spend on development and testing if they don’t sell huge numbers of their vaccinations. I think they have not only recouped that money, they have made billions in profit, probably by now with these mandates, is it by the mandates or by the willingness of the people to take their vaccines? I think it’s a little bit of both. I was going to say I think it has to be an intersection of the two, but as far as them having made, I wouldn’t argue that they haven’t made huge profits, but I would argue that not knowing what they spent in order to get to the point of having the vaccine, I couldn’t guarantee that they’ve made huge profit. I will say this knowing what testing costs and knowing they have not been burdened with doing a ten year test, collecting data, learning, getting historical data, watching cases of people who took the vaccine, what happened to them at year nine as opposed to at day nine. And there’s been enough bad things have happened at day nine. I think year nine is going to be very interesting not having had to do that testing, not having been responsible for that testing, not having to deal with the liability issues that certainly mitigates towards them having made some huge profits. But then I would ask the question with people in any line of work with the access to all of the money they have access to is huge profit ever huge enough? I would say no, but from what I’ve seen on the Internet and whether this is true or not. But I think it was Project variators who actually was, I guess the interview but secretly taping one of these fiver employee and they say right now the company’s running solely on culvert money. I believe that these companies have made billions and billions of dollars and I’m going to say that in profit, they have recouped whatever they have paid to produce this vaccine run test and distribution and everything. And I think now in the billions, even just recently, these companies are now pushing for 18 years and older to get the booster. From what I read just recently, they’re pushing for kids from two to eleven. I think five to eleven, five to get the shot. But now they’re pushing for 18 and older to get the booster. So now again, I guess it comes down to this. Where does it stop? When are you considered fully vaccinated? When you get the first two shots of the Pfizer or the one shot from the Johnson and Johnson, or is it when you get the first two shots on the booster and the second booster and the third booster? That’s the problem. Where does it stop? Where does it end well? And I think that goes all the way back to the question of do we trust our government? And I don’t.

do we trust these companies? Because I think MD hit the nail on the head when he said the vaccination efforts right now are the clinical trials. There hasn’t been sufficient time of testing in order for this new technology. Now they will say that mRNA vaccines have been in development for years, and that’s very true. You could jump on YouTube and see that there’s mRNA vaccine technology that predates the pandemic. But because I could be wrong here, I might just be left field here, but I think that they capitalized on this pandemic in order to further this technology. In order to do that, they need willing participants and who are more willing to jump in and take this vaccine than people in the middle of a pandemic. If you scare them enough, if you fear monger enough folks are more than willing to do that. I think perhaps my problem with. On one hand, I don’t have a problem with companies making a ton of money because they have something that you need. That’s capitalism. You know what I mean? We wouldn’t have that problem with anything else. If you needed lumber. And you’re the only lumber guy in the town, you’re going to make a lot of money. That’s fine. The problem is the manipulation of governing of policy in order to make that happen in order to further that. And a question that I have, I might be the Booboo in the room. How are they making this money? Because everywhere that I’ve gone that have the COVID vaccine available, they all say it’s free. Where’s the money coming from? Who’s paying for these vaccines? You and I are paying for it because the government pays for it. The government make it available for free. Where does the government get the money from? Not as free as free colleges. Not really free. Okay, so you and I are paying for this. But someone said to me that the mandate because I’m not against vaccine. If someone wants to take the vaccine, fine the mandates. And I’m not even technically against the mandate, so to speak. But I do believe that you can win more people with honey than with vinegar. And I think the Biden administration made a mistake in making it mandatory rather than persuasive. I believe these have made it persuasive. They probably would have been successful enough and persuaded enough people to do it. But even we would say that the country is almost 80% vaccinated now, so at least almost 80% the first shot. So it seemed like it’s working, but they’re going to be strong pushbacks, because that’s what people do, the human nature. When you tell someone you have to do something, they’re always going to be pushed back against. That’s something that you have to do. Is this a situation where because before you can even jump on YouTube and look up mRNA vaccine information and the videos that explain what the technology is that predate the pandemic are all by these little companies that no one knows about. Like, if I say precision Nano systems, no one would know what that particular company is. It’s a small company emergent company trying to develop this particular medical development. But with the pandemic coming on, is it possible that these bigger companies like Johnson, Johnson, Pfizer, all of these big names that we know just kind of what brought them out? Is that what happened? Is that how it’s being pushed? And so now they’ve bought out these smaller companies and now government is backing them and mandating it and just kind of making money because all the little guys already did all of the development work, like developing it. And now all they needed was like a big manufacturer, as it were. And these big pharmaceutical companies were there to fit the bill.

Yeah, I can’t speak on whether they bought our companies or stuff. I know for a fact that this thing has been mRNA has been in development for ten plus years now, so it’s not anything new. I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with the mRNA vaccine or whatever the case may be. I think at least in that sense. I think there’s enough research that has been done in mRNA to be comfortable with the technology. I think that you go back ten plus years. I think the technology is mature at that point. So I don’t have much problem with that. The problem is that as I said before, if you’re going to mandate something, they’re going to be pushed back. And I personally believe that this the mandate, the vaccine is not so much about health and, wellbeing, I think it’s more about politics and power, because if it was about health and, wellbeing, they would have considered and look at stuff like immunity, or they will look at other stuff like herd immunity or whatever the case may be or people who have got it before do they have antibodies against it. They want to ignore all that and decide they’re still going to push it. Why? Because I think big farmers have a lot to do with it because of the money. And I think politics and power have a lot to do with it. I think it’s more about politics and power rather than health. And, wellbeing, that’s the problem I think a lot of folks have with it is because it’s not just about, hey, this is about your health and well being. And I think even going back way back when we saw the government was a bit more trustworthy back in 10, 00, 19, 22 or back in 1777. But I think back then it was way more about health and well being than about politics and power. Today, you almost can’t see the difference if it was about health and, wellbeing, why is it that people that are working from home who don’t have to go into office are still mandated to take this vaccine? Well, your comment about more about health than politics.

I remember when the Hippocratic oath was widely paraphrased, at least maybe quoted first do no harm. Well, the Hippocratic oath is an oath that every doctor takes regardless of their specialty. Every medical researcher takes, regardless of their specialty first do no harm. I don’t think that with the politicization of medicine today, the science capital T capital S. I don’t think that’s the driving factor any longer. I think you’re absolutely right. It is about control. It is about power, it is about money. And I don’t think it’s any one individual who is all about all of those things. And I think that may be Jay. A lot of why we have such confusion and such mistrust because it is such a web. It’s hard to know who’s got which goals. And you mentioned earlier, Jay, you were talking about the people who are behind those in political power. I’ve long observed from the time when I first started voting when I was 18 years old, I’ve long observed that politics is about choosing a candidate to be run by your party, whom you can run. So I think presidential candidates are chosen long before there’s any primary even considered, probably two, three, four or five years in advance. They’re probably groomed longer than that with the idea that I will back this candidate because this candidate will do what I tell this candidate to do. And I think that’s a lot of what we’re running into now we’re just seeing it a lot more openly. Yeah. It was all that clearly with the last election where there’s a YouTuber that I listen to, and he said it’s very clearly, and I think he’s right. He said the current President was not elected. He was anti elected in the sense that people hated the other guy so much that they came out and voted for this guy. It didn’t matter who he was because you could just put anyone in that slot and it would work out. And of course, they screened everybody, but that was pretty much the best they had. And the guy is there sometimes, and other times he’s not so much. It’s the same thing. I think that speaks a lot about Donald Trump, and this is grossly off topic, but I hope he doesn’t run again. That’s just my opinion. But I think that he will do the country greater good if he doesn’t run again, because the passion behind of someone like Donald Trump is so great that even people that would not have voted necessarily for Joe Biden probably voted for him just out of Spiderman because they didn’t want to vote for Donald Trump. And I know that might irritate or upset the people on the right, but I pray that he doesn’t run again because it’s just too divisive. Give us two persons that are somewhat less divisive and somewhat normal and let us go and vote based upon policies rather than the persona of the person. Do you think that whoever’s in the White House, their persona or their character with regards to the pandemic and the vaccines and the mandates and all of that sort of thing? Do you think that does more harm than good? Because they keep telling us this is for all of our health, this is for our public health. This is for your safety. This is for your safety.

Wouldn’t you want the person in the White House to be a unifier, then to bring people to the middle? Yeah, but neither Joe Biden or Donald Trump was no. And you mentioned people who would be more of a unifier than of a popular character. We’ve heard the press talk about the Kennedys from their time as Camelot in America. Well, if you know much about the history of the Kennedys, they were a tremendously immoral family. Bill Clinton had nothing on the Kennedys for the behavior they were guilty of and the things that they probably have been guilty of since then. But, boy, were they popular people? Boy, were they loved. But then there were people who hated him, obviously because John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Somebody hated him. I think, too, that and again, I’m with you. I’m probably going to irritate people on the right. I hope President Trump does not run again. On the other hand, I hope he applies his considerable leverage to helping candidates who want to do the right thing for the country. But I was kind of uncomfortable with the cult of Donald Trump because those who thought he was a wonderful guy kind of got a little cultish about him. Yeah, I would agree that. Let me just also say this. I hope President Biden doesn’t run as well. I’m equally offensive to each side, both sides. We’re offending everyone here. I think we’re at the point now, though, where if President Biden runs again, we probably don’t have too much of a battle going on there. Well, that’s true. Although Jill Biden. Well, never mind. We’re going to get off a lot of people off.

Where should the line be? John Doe? Between personal autonomy and the collective wellbeing of everybody, what do you think, MD? I think as a Christian, every Christian needs to one examine their own heart. Why do they feel? Why do I feel the way I feel about Joe Biden politics, the vaccines, the mandates, you name it. Why do I feel the way I do about anything? What is it that drives my emotions? And I think as a Christian, if I get down to the question of, am I truly a child of the King? Is Christ truly my Lord? Then I have to modify everything. I think everything I do, everything I say according to what God wants of me. And I’m reminded of the story of Queen Esther in the Old Testament Mordecai saying to her, who knows whether for this time God put you in the position you’re in. And she said, If I die, I die. But I’ll go do the right thing. And then we look at others in the Old Testament. Who God said, no, David, you have a great idea building me a Tabernacle. But I don’t want you to do it. Want your son to do it? It was a wonderful idea. It was a magnificent place. It was a huge thing for someone to build a Tabernacle for God. And David didn’t want to do it for his own good. That wasn’t the point. He wanted to do it because he loved God and he wanted to serve God. God called him a man after my own heart. And yet God said, no, David, you’re not the one who’s going to do it. And what was David’s response? He could have got his back up and said, Well, it’s my right. He didn’t. He said, okay, God said, My son will do it. My son will do it. And I’m going to do everything I can to make it ready for my son to do it. Numerous cases in the Bible where God said to an individual, this is your job, Paul. As Saul, God told, I can’t remember who it was, but the disciples, not a disciple. One of his followers. He said, Go find Saul and tell him what great things he’ll suffer. For my name’s sake, he’s going to serve me. So one guy gets the job of going to confront someone who has been murdering Christians everywhere he goes and say, this is what God told you to do. And another guy, Paul gets the job of going. And how many times was he left in the ocean overnight? How many times was he beaten within one stripe of what they consider to be clinical death? How many times was he stoned? How many times was he left for dead? He was given all of that by God to do I think we all have as Christians to look at, what does God tell me to do? And why do I want to do what I want to do? Is it my pride? I will admit to being guilty of a huge amount of pride when it comes to not taking the vaccine. I’ve had to look carefully at why I don’t take the vaccine. I’ve had to look carefully what my response is to a lot of the laws that are being shoved at us by the left by the extreme Progressives put that in quotes of big capital letters. But I’ve had to look at my response to a lot of those laws and ask myself, what does God want me to do in response to those laws? And where do I come to the point where I say this is where I trust God to fix what man breaks. I don’t know if I mentioned this in one of our earlier podcasts. You alluded to the fact that I’ve been here more than once, why you put up with me? I don’t know, but I do appreciate it. But during the Second World War, in fact, just before the Second World War, in the Warsaw Poland ghetto, which was an area that had been mandated for the Jews, all the Jews had to be checked in and out. They could only go out to work for other Jews. There were huge numbers of restrictions on them, and they knew the day was coming very soon. And in fact, as far as I know, when this debate began between the rabbinical priesthood, the two factions involved, it was only within a month that Jews in that Warsaw Ghetto were slaughtered by the Gestapo, not the German Gestapo, by the Polish Gestapo. But the argument was, there is this place we know it now called Israel. Back then it was called the Polatnate, and it was a piece of land which was being prepared by the United States and England. And I don’t know if any other countries were involved in it. But both the US and England had said to the Jews, It’s not ready for you yet. You can’t go there yet. There’s an embargo we can’t let you go there. And a huge number of the Jews within the Warsaw Ghetto said, we need to go because we’re going to get slaughtered. A huge number of Jews said, no, we need to just trust God and stay here. My wife points out they were not Christians. True, they weren’t. But they are God’s chosen people. And where that intersection broke down, I don’t know where it breaks down. I don’t know what God wanted them to do. I don’t know. But historically, what we know is that the survivors of that Warsaw Ghetto are the people who left and said, it’s time for us to move, regardless of what you who say trust God to get us out of this say because for reasons I don’t understand and will not understand until I’m in heaven. And I can ask the Lord about it myself. God didn’t choose to save those in the Warsaw Ghetto. Those who left are today’s Israel. So there has to be that argument. There has to be that question. And it’s got to be an internal argument that you make between you and God when you say God, what do you want me to do? And why am I responding to it this way?

Yeah, in terms of personal autonomy and collective. Wellbeing, I think you definitely, of course, seek the face of God. And I don’t want to be dogmatic with this answer, but I think where do we draw the line between personal autonomy and collective? Wellbeing, I think we’ll note when we see it, it will be apparent to us when we need and where to draw the line. As I mentioned earlier, the smallpox debt rate at the peak, I think, was 30%. Where do we draw the line? I think the line was drawn at 30% of somewhere around there because literally 30 out of 100 people who got this thing died. Well, the death rate and mortality rate is 1.5% somewhere around there. So maybe two people out of 100 who get this thing down even less problem, way less the problem with the covered rates and debt rates and all this stuff is so hard to find that information that you can trust. But I say all that to say this, I think it will be apparent to us if we need to draw the line here or there when we see it, because another question in my mind is who decide who decide if you have personal autonomy or is it going to be the collective? Wellbeing, let’s think about going back to 911. George Bush had commanded that to ground all planes and any plane in the air will be shut down. That is collective well being over personal autonomy for 200 people in the plane, to the 1000 people on the ground. He made a decision that if a plane decided going to be in the air, we’ll be going to shut them down during that day. No one argue about that point because you’re sacrificing a few for a lot to me. I’m thinking about it that way and thinking, okay, personal autonomy, collective. Wellbeing, I don’t think it’s a one to one comparison here, but I’m just showing that I think when it’s obvious and apparent, we will know where we draw the line between personal autonomy or College. Wellbeing, in the case of who decides? Well, we’ll know when we see it that’s optimistic, I think, because these mandates have gotten down to the level where people who don’t even have authority are beginning to flex their authority. There are videos of drive through workers refusing to serve people without masks or without. If we’re talking about masks, much less the vaccine. Right. I’ve heard medical personnel say things like, oh, well, I don’t think I should have to treat anyone who is not vaccinated, because why should I expose myself to the possibility of getting this disease just because so and so doesn’t want to get vaccinated. And I have a hard time determining if they just haven’t thought that line of reasoning through or if they’re just being genuinely malicious, because what are you going to do? Someone, for example, wrecks their car that has COVID. Let’s say they’re asymptomatic and they’re not vaccinated. They have covet they’re asymptomatic, but they wreck their car probably 80% plus of people who get Covaed exactly asymptomatic. But let’s say you wreck your car and you go to a hospital, but you refuse service because you’re not vaccinated. Who decides? That’s a very important question. You’re definitely more optimistic than I am, MCG, because I’m not sure that those that would decide have the moral framework to do the most good. I know that sounds really pessimistic, but when I see people who don’t even have authority beginning to flex as though they had authority, that tells me that I don’t think that we’ll know it when we see it, and I think it needs to be clearly defined. I think who decides needs to be clear in everyone’s mind right now. It sounds like it would be the government. I don’t think that’s the right decision either. I think right now if COVID that is personal autonomy because I don’t think COVID is to the point that’s my personal opinion. But I don’t think COVID is to the point where the government needs to be mandating stuff. But they are. I agree. Yes, they are. But I’m just saying they’re not to the point something like small parks. I can see why they would mandate that. And I would agree with that mandate to some degree. And again, who decided not saying that it should be the government who decide. I’m not simply saying that who decide to me will be apparent when we see it in that particular situation. I use the example of 911 when George would decide any plane in the air after he give the ground in order they go to take them down. In my opinion, there, it seems like, okay, obviously, the government needs to decide here. Are we going to allow another plane to fly into some place like the White House or the capital building or into some big city like Chicago or New York? Well, one day finding New York or wherever are we going to let that happen again? Or are we going to sacrifice 100 people on a plane to 3000 people in a building working in one of these big cities? So I’m just simply saying they come a point where the government has to decide. They come a point where the people should decide because of personal autonomy. And I think many times when that decision needs to be made, it’s going to be apparent who need to make that decision. Maybe it might be time when the lines are blurred, but in my opinion, I think it will be apparent, and it’s apparent to me, at least again, in my opinion, that Corvette is not to the point where the government needs to mandate. I think maybe small parks and or the situation. You can look back and say, yeah, I can see that at this point. I don’t think so.

The thing that keeps coming to my mind, listening to you talking about it, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, but it sounds like probably the biggest decision point is going to be what is the exposure to infection rate, the rate at which if you are exposed, you will get it. And what is the mortality rate? Jay, you commented earlier that all of these calculations ignore entirely those people who have developed an immunity by getting it. I think you’re aware my family and I have had both baseline and COVID Delta and came very close to my wife and daughter dying from it. And I frankly don’t remember too much of the two weeks that I had COVID Delta. I remember very clearly because I am daily taking thyroid medicine. That two days after I had COVID Delta, I suffered a thyroid attack and my endocrinologist said, yes, you absolutely got it from COVID, and you absolutely have Hashimoto’s disease, and you absolutely have thyroid antibodies. You absolutely for the rest of your life will have thyroid disease and be thyroid deficient. And I still am not ready to take the vaccine because. Mcg, I agree with you. Yes, we had a very bad case of it. We all did. We had very bad cases of it. God’s Grace, we survived. We’re doing okay. And the thyroid is a minor issue. It’s something we’re dealing with. It can be dealt with by modern medicine that I trust. We had a very bad case. I don’t know. I can’t even tell you how many people I’ve known who had it, who were not asymptomatic but who came through it. They’re doing fine. Many of them are Christians and give God the glory for that fact. But many of them are not Christians, and they don’t give God the glory for anything. And I’m able to look at them and say, it is by God’s glory that you are still with us, whether you know it or not. But it’s a witnessing opportunity also, because it is by God’s glory. So let’s wrap it up. Md how should Christians respond to such mandates? Because we have the mandates, whether we like it or not. And of course, the Bible command is that we should obey them to have the rule over us.

How should Christians respond to the COVID mandate if we had very clear secular legal guidance, ie, the Constitution says that the President has the authority to and they follow it down. The train has the authority too. I think we would have no question we would have no opportunity. We’d have no right to even say. I don’t think so. I think the problem we face right now. And, Jay, I think you alluded to this also earlier is there is so much confusion. Jonathan Turley is a George Washington University law professor. He’s a Liberal, but he has come out more times than I can count in the last three years saying this that the government is doing is constitutionally wrong. Do I believe that he is the sole authority? No. Because I can find lawyers on the other side who say the opposite. We used to say of engineers when I was working in engineering, that if you shut down ten engineers in a room and you tell them what the problem is and ask them for their solution to it, you’re going to get 14 different opinions. Well, with lawyers, I think it’s you set two lawyers down in the room and you get at least 27 different opinions. Well, it depends. Yeah. Exactly. What do you want? Two plus two to equal. But the point I would make is that we don’t have clarity on what the government’s authority is in this. And I think it’s probably true that the White House doesn’t know what their authority is in this, but knows they don’t have the authority that they have usurped, because if you think about it, something. One of my sisters in law made a comment about this, and she’s followed the vaccine mandates because she’s been a sole healthcare provider for two very ill elderly people for a long time. And she pointed out that there are not written presidentially signed findings for most of the vaccine decisions being made, the vaccine mandate decisions being made. So companies are being told you have to do this and they fight back and they say, no, we don’t have to do this because there is no written presidential finding signed into law by the appropriate legal authorities of the country. Well, it’s a guy in the streets. What do I know? I know there’s a lot of people who have a lot of opinions on a topic who ought to be able to get together on it, but don’t seem to be able to. So I think it still comes back to the same answer I would have given earlier, which is that as a Christian, as a child of God, and I don’t offer much hope for those who don’t have God to go to, who can’t go to God and say, God, what do you want me to do? But for Christians, it has to be very clearly. What does God want you personally as a child of God to do? I would say for those who don’t know the Lord as their savior, that God never gives us directions, even as Christians to do more if we don’t already do what he told us to do, you could probably liken it in our vernacular to look, I told you what I want you to do. Why are you asking me what else you haven’t done? What I told you to do in the first place and for the unsafe person. The first thing is acknowledge your sin, acknowledge your sinful state and your total inability. All of us are totally unable to get to Heaven. We’re unable to be righteous. We’re unable to do right. We can’t do it. But God imputes to us righteousness when we accept the shed blood of Jesus Christ as our Savior in John 316 says he shed his blood so that everyone, all mankind in the entire world race not considered nothing considered. No matter what sin someone may have committed, they can find Grace. They can find Salvation. But until you have accepted that, until you’ve accepted that free gift from Christ, Ephesians two verses eight and nine for by Grace are Ye saved through faith. And that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works. Lest any man should boast something God gives us for free. Yet we reject it routinely. And then we go to God and say, what do you want me to do? And God says, I already told you, and it’s really simple. So for those that don’t know the Lord, they can’t go to him and say, what do you want me to do about the COVID vaccine? I truly don’t think he’s going to answer that. If they’ve accepted Christ as their Savior, that could be the first question they get an answer to. It could be, I don’t know. But for those of us that know the Lord is our Savior, it is our job. As individuals who understand God’s ownership of us. We belong to Him to go to Him and say, Lord, what do you want me to do?

Md it’s always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on a Removing Various podcasts. Thank you for having me.

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