Episode 64

Today, we tackle a question perhaps as old as time: If there is a God and He is so loving, why would he make a terrible place like hell and send people there? In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we tackle these questions head on. Is hell a real place? What does the bible say it’s like and why did God create it? Who goes there and why? When? Can it be avoided? How do we even know it is real? Join us on this episode to learn more about the terrible reality of hell, but also to learn of the marvelous hope that is found in Christ Jesus as He has made provision to save people from such a terrible fate. Recurring guest and dear brother DW joins MCG and Jay to discuss.

Let’s answer the million dollar question. Why would a loving God send anyone to hell and did He make any provision to escape the punishment of hell?

Thank you for choosing hanging into the Removing Barriers Podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross. This is episode 64 of the Removing Barriers Podcast, and in this episode we will be discussing Hell and a loving God. I’ll ultimately try to answer the age old question, why would a loving God send anyone to hell? Joining us in this episode is DW. Dw is no stranger to the Removing Barriers broadcast. Dw is a pleasure and welcome back. And thank you for joining us once again. Well, thanks for having me back again. I appreciate every opportunity I get to come back. Great. I don’t know why I keep on bringing you back, but I guess there’s something about you I like it must be the handsome place. Yeah, that’s what I was saying. It’s the beard. No further comment.

So let’s dive right into DW. Is Hell a real place? Yes. And the reason that we know it’s a real place is because the Bible refers more often to hell, actually than it does to heaven. Now, how do we know? I’m sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say in a vast majority of those cases, if not all of them, it speaks about Helen as a real place, not as a figurative place. That’s what I was going to ask, because a lot of people, when you talk to them, they imagine hell to be the terrible conditions that people can create for themselves as a result of their sin or their bad conditions, but not a literal place. But you’re saying Scriptures describe it as an actual place.

I wonder if it’s an actual physical place. For example, we know that the underpinning for everything that we see materially in the world is spiritual. The material world is pointing to the reality of the spiritual world. It’s through the material world that we can begin to grasp and understand some elements of the spiritual world, although we can’t fully because we need special revelation for that. And so when you say it’s a real place, are you talking like a literal place? I don’t know how else to ask that. Or is it like a spiritual place that we will experience as spiritual beings? Or are they one in the same? Because I was going to say yes, both. It’s a real place that we’re not currently in. And I say that because in Matthew 25 41, Jesus is speaking to those who he did not know. Those who were cursed. He said, Depart Ye from me or depart from me. Ye cursed into everlasting fire. So it was a place other than where they currently were, and they had to go there. So it’s an actual destination, if you will. It’s a place and it’s a place where the rich man was able to lift up his eyes being in torment. So it’s a real place, obviously a real place that the rich man could see and so forth. Yeah, definitely. I would agree with that. Also, you alluded to the rich man in Luke chapter 16 that tell us also that Jesus believed that hell was a real place because Jesus stole that historical account of the rich man being in hell. And she has also warned more about hell than he speaks of the blessing of heaven. So if the Lord and Savior is actually warning people more about hell than he is talking about the blessing of heaven, I think that should definitely tell us that this is a real place that real people go to. Also, I think about Revelation 2014 and 15 and death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is a second death. And whosoever was not found within the Book of Life was cast in the Lake of Fire.

That led to this question. Maybe we should first define what hell is and also maybe touching a little bit on a Lake of Fire. Because if I ever talk about hell, and if I talk about the Lake of Fire, how do we distinguish both of them? Because I’m sure many times throughout this episode we’re probably going to be talking about hell when we really talking about a Lake of fire or talking about a Lake of fire when we’re really talking about hell. So maybe we should just clarify that right now. So give the listener something to follow or to grasp on when we say, hey, so Hale and the Lake of Fire both have. I mean, a lot of the descriptions are very similar between the two of them. They both have fire. They’re both a place of torment and so forth. The easiest way to understand the difference between the two is sort of like a remand center versus the actual prison. When you get arrested for a crime before you actually get sentenced, you oftentimes will be put into what’s known as the remand center. It’s a holding place. It’s still a prison, but it isn’t your final destination. After you go through the court system in America, that would be the jail, as opposed to the prison, essentially. Yeah. So while you’re awaiting sentencing and so forth, you’re going to be held in this temporary place. And then once you actually receive your sentencing, then they determine which prison you’re going to actually be housed in. And then you get taken out of the temporary holding place, and then you get put into the permanent, not permanent. But in the case of the Lake of Fire, it’s permanent. But in the case of this prison analogy, then you’re going to get put into the prison facility that you’re going to be in long term until your sentence is served. In the case of the Lake of fire. It’s eternal. It’s everlasting. And I’m sure we’ll get more into that in a little bit. Okay. Just so that I’m sure that I’m following hell is the jail. Lake of Fire is the prison. Yeah. Hell is a temporary holding place. The only reprieve that the people in Hell will get from their torment is when they are brought up in Revelation chapter 20, at the Great White Throne judgment, they’ll be brought up before the Great White Throne. They’ll be judged. The Bible doesn’t talk about them being tormented while they’re there at the Judgment. So in some sense they’ll have some basic short term reprieve while they’re being judged. And then they’ll be cast into the Lake of Fire. And that’ll be the second death. And in verse ten of Revelation chapter 20, it says that place is a place of torment forever and ever. Right.

And we know that when Christ was dead for those three days that the Bible said that he went and when in the Saints came up. And the Bible also described that hell has enlarged in itself. So if you go back to the Luke chapter 16 parable, while it wasn’t a parable with a historical account where Jesus talked about the rich man and Lazarus and Lazarus was actually able to see the rich men. A lot of Bible scholars, which I’m not one, but a lot of Bible scholars believe that paradise and Hades were actually two compartments, two compartments where they could see what happening across from each other when Christ died and took the Saints with him to Heaven. Now Hell has enlarged itself. The whole thing now has become what we call Hades or Hell. And that is the jail or the temporary compartment. Now, until their final judgment at DWB was saying, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for my benefit and for the benefit of those listening who may not have heard Luke 16 described as a parable or described as a historical account and not a parable. What makes Luke 16, the Richmond and Lazarus is what we’re talking about.

What makes that different from a parable? How do we know that it’s not a parable? Yeah. So in all the parables that Christ told he never used a proper noun, whereas in this particular account, this is one of the features of it that make it not a parable. In this particular account, Jesus uses a proper noun. He uses Lazarus. A lot of Bible scholars actually think that the listeners that Jesus would have been talking to at the time, the reason that Jesus may have used this name and this proper noun is because the listeners may have known who Lazarus actually was, and therefore they may have known who that certain rich man whose gate Lazarus sat outside of. So there would have been some personal identification that they would have had. So that’s the main reason why this is believed to be an actual account and not a Preparable. Yeah. I definitely would agree that it doesn’t have the same flavor as the normal parable that Jesus, because usually the Bible say any spike a powerboard to them saying something like that. And if you look in Luke chapter 16, you don’t see that normal phrase that we see for most of the parables that Jesus gave. And also, if you notice, I think this has been Luke chapter ten when they came to him and asked them, why did those perish? And Jesus said, asylum fails. That’s right. And Jesus said, I tell you, nebucha repent. He’s all like what perish. But if you notice that was a specific story, that was historical account that they know of, that he was talking about. And the Bible never says any spacious to them saying, right. So if you look for the pattern Scripture, that’s what leads most people and myself to believe that this is actually a true story and not a parable.

I always thought it was a true story and not a parable. Because of the mention of Father Abraham. The Bible affirms itself as the word of God, and every piece of Scripture is confirmed by some other piece of scripture as being the word of God. And so obviously Christ referred to the Old Testament multiple times. Abraham obviously being not necessarily the progenitor of the faith, but I’m just saying that he’s like, what am I looking for? Yeah. Patriarch of the faith. So it seems to me that Christ would not have used him lightly to just create or describe a situation, a heavenly story with an earthly meaning. If he said Father Abraham said something, Father Abraham said something to me. Maybe I don’t have any. Go ahead. Well, go back to what DW was saying. The use of proper nouns. Right. I can’t think of another parable being used that you actually use that proper noun is what I mean. We don’t know who Lazarus is, but every single person that would both in the past and today that would claim Christianity would know who Abraham is. And so it has an eternal sort of or like it’s not bound by the constraints of time. The only people who understood who Lazarus was were the people who were alive at that time. But all of us know who Abraham was. And so the fact that Christ mentions him and says this is what he said. This is what happened. It’s almost like he’s telling them the account of what happened for them to understand, but also looking ahead to the future to us Christians today that would believe almost like a stamp of Verity like, this is real. Yes, Christ is the master teacher, so definitely we can learn a lot from his teaching methods.

So we have established that Hell is a real place. Why did God create hell? Well, the reason that Bible says that God created hell was for the devil and his Angels. I referenced Matthew 25 41 earlier, there were Christ is separating believers from unbelievers. And he says to those who are unbelievers in verse 41, then shall he, that’s the son of Man saying to them on the left hand, depart from the cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his Angels. So hell was created for the devil and his Angels? Yes. Definitely don’t have anything added that. Matthew 25 41 definitely tell us that he was prepared for the devil and his Angels. And I also think it’s a place of punishment for evadors as we alluded to earlier. And what is striking on that for me is that if it’s a punishment for evidence, it’s a place of punishment for all of us. But as we will discuss later on, there’s a way to escape. Yes. And the reason that God created hell. You asked, why did he create hell as well? He created it for the devil and his Angels because they rose up in rebellion. In Isaiah chapter 14, the Bible says, Howard, thou fallen from heaven or Lucifer, son of the morning, Howard, thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations. For thou hast said in that heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit upon the Mount of the congregation in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will be like the most high, yet thou shalt be brought down to hell to the sides of the pit. And so it was created because of Lucifer’s rebellion in particular. And he took a third of the host of heaven with him as well. So it was prepared for the devil and his Angels, and it was prepared for them because of their rebellion. And then when man rebelled, God being Holy and just consigned him to the same punishment because otherwise, if he gave him some lesser punishment or some other punishment, he wouldn’t be just so he had to consign man to the same punishment. Yeah, definitely.

How does the Bible describe this place called hell? You said earlier that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven. Some people say he talked about hell seven times for every one time he talked about heaven. Other people say ten times, however you want to break it down. Jesus spoke about hell a lot more often than he spoke about heaven. And that’s just really in the Gospels, the Bible is full of information about hell. It talks about hell a voluminous number of times, and it talks about hell being a furnace of fire, talks about there being wailing and gnashing of teeth. There. We were talking about the rich man in Luke chapter 16, and he lifted up his eyes so clearly people there can still see. And yet he was in torment. He was thirsty, he could hear he could speak. So he had all of his senses. And yet he’s in this place of torment. It talks about the worm die if not there. And it talks about there being weeping there and darkness and so forth. So it’s an awful place. And the Bible has a lot to say about the various descriptions of hell. Yeah. And I think the worst part about health is that we can talk about the tall man. We can talk about the intense grief. We can talk about the place of the darkness, a place of horror. But I think the worst part about it is the fact that God will not be there. It is total separation from God at that point. And then this is where it comes in with the hell and the Lake of fire. Once that final judgment has taken place, you’ll be totally separated from God. I think about second testimonial one nine, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power. So I think even if you take away the fire and the torment and the grief and the darkness, and just the fact that God would not be there, that alone for eternity would make hell. When you add that in the fact that you’re going to be without God, the presence of God for eternity, then you add all the other stuff in that the Bible described hell as being I think that make hel a place that is just totally undesirable, even in words that I cannot explain. I mean, in heaven, the people there are going to be the objects of God’s mercy and his love and his life and his tenderness and so forth. But in hell, those people are going to be the objects of his wrath. Yeah, definitely.

So why is he so gruesome? Then why couldn’t God make hell a little bit less gruesome? Because when I describe as we just alluded to is a real place that is like, wow, this is torture. Why is hell so gruesome? Well, because, again, it is a place where they are the objects of His wrath. And they’re the objects of his wrath because they’ve rebelled against him. And his wrath is an awful thing. The Bible talks. The biggest type in the Bible regarding God’s judgment is fire. So hell is so gruesome, in part because the people are no longer shielded from his wrath. Presently it says in John chapter three, that people are already the objects of God’s wrath, except they are also shielded in part by His mercy, because he hasn’t yet fully poured out his wrath on them. They still have time to turn to him, to flee to him, as John said, from the wrath to come. But they’re in hell, they have no longer any mercy, anything shielding them from or withholding God’s wrath. So it’s just a place of just awfulness because of that. But also again, because, like we said, it’s a place that’s prepared for the devil and his Angels, and the devil. A lot of people have this imagery that he’s walking around, a little red suit with little red horns and a little pointy tail and a Pitchfork. But he is an awful thing. The Bible talks about him being a liar. It talks about him being a lion, walking about seeking whom he may devour. It talks about him being the angel of death or having the power of death, talks about him being hateful and vengeful and so forth. And he hates the image of God. And men were made in the image of God. So to be locked up in a room with this awful being that hates you and wants to destroy you for all of eternity is probably not going to be nice, just in and of itself. And all of his Angels are going to be there, and they’re going to be angry too. It’s so gruesome because God’s light, and so there’s darkness. There God is love, but they’re not going to experience God’s love. It’s going to be the antithesis of heaven. So it’s just so awful because it is the opposite of what the people in heaven will be experiencing. Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the reason why it’s so gruesome. And this is kind of a weird question, because if someone is asking why hell is so gruesome, I’m thinking that maybe you don’t see the gruesomeness of your sin, because if I were to claim Isaiah 64, verse six, all our righteousness are as filthy rags. So if our righteousness the good, so to speak, that we do are like filthy rags. What about the sin that we actually do? What are they like? I think our sin is that gruesome. So the punishment has to fit the crime, so to speak. And I think if we look at sin to the lens of the Bible, hence to the lens of God, we can realize, hey, that within me that within my flesh light no good thing. And because of that, our sin is gruesome. So if we end up in a gruesome place called Hell, it’s because our sin was gruesome, and we never repented of that sin. And also, I think it’s because we sin up against an eternal, infinite God. Therefore, the punishment has to be eternal and infinite, so to speak. Exactly. And I think if you consider the ugliness of sin, there will be no debate on the gruesomeness of hell. Again, we talk about the rich man in Lazarus. If you notice the rich man in Luke chapter 16 did not argue or try to justify himself, he was more concerned about his brothers coming to this place. He never said, hey, I don’t deserve this punishment. Hey, I don’t deserve this. He begged for water and plea for his brothers because I think for the first time, if you die and you end up in a place called Hell, I think for the first time in your life you will see the gruesomeness of your sin, and there won’t be any complaint about the gruesomeness of your punishment.

We can also ask, Are there degrees of punishment in hell? I think that’s an important question because I think the most influential work, sadly, in the world, the most influential work on what people think hell is like is Dante Alegueri’s Inferno. He was an Italian poet. When you think of classical literature, you think of his work and he wrote this long epic poem about what hell is like. And I think when I hear people talk about hell, when I hear some of the words that they use, it’s a very Catholic understanding of what hell is. So it not only includes purgatory, it also includes everything that classical work describes as hell, the nine concentric circles of hell. And so we should tackle that. Does the Bible say anything about there being degrees of punishment in hell? Well, Firstly, I would say that I don’t think that he got the description of hell correctly according to scripture. Well, I’m not eloquent enough, but I don’t think that we can fully express in words the gruesomeness of hell, so I don’t think he fully got anything. There’s some directional errors there on his part. As for their degrees of punishment in Hell, I will say yes, I believe so, but I can be corrected on this one because I couldn’t find any clear scripture that tells me that yes, they are punishment in hell. The scripture that I usually turn to, and I know most people usually turn to is Revelation, chapter 20 211, where the Bible says he that is unjust, let him be unjust still, and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still, and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is Holy, let him be Holy still. And a lot of folks use that verse to show that you’re going to still have that level of craving or addiction to the sin when you are alive still and you will still go to become worse and worse in that state. And because of that that showed degrees of punishment. I’m not 100% sure on that one, but I will say yes. But again, I will stand to be corrected. But to be honest, whether or not their degrees of punishment in hell, this is not the place you want to end up because it’s not like you’re going to. Who cares about degrees? Just don’t go there, you know, the person next to you, so to speak, if they’re going to be a person next to you, if you go to even notice, because of course, we don’t know exactly how it’s going to set up the Bible. Describe hell. Bible never tell us exactly how help function in terms of the functionality of it, and whatever the case may be, what the Bible does describe, give us a description of it. So I personally can’t be dogmatic about this, but I will say, I believe so.

How about UDW? I believe. Yes. One verse that I would lean on actually be John 1911, where Jesus is talking to Pilate and he says, Thou canst have no power at all against me, except that we’re giving thee from above. Therefore, he that delivered me under thee have the greater sin. And if there is greater sin, then there’s probably a greater degree of punishment for the greater sin. Luke 1014 says that it shall be more tolerable for tire and sight and at the judgment than for you. And he was talking to Capernaum, so apparently tire and sight and aren’t going to have it as bad off at the judgment as Capernaum would. So I think that there definitely are degrees of punishment. They’re going to be degrees of reward in heaven. So if there are going to be degrees of reward in heaven, then it just makes sense. There’s degrees of punishment and health. I just hope everyone listening understands, though, that when we’re talking about degrees, we’re literally talking about the difference between 7000 degrees and 14,000 degrees. Exactly. Either way, as MTG said earlier, Hell is not a place that you want to end up.

I’ve heard many people talk about hell, and they have a very flippant attitude about it. Almost like, I’m not that bad. I’ll end up in the not so bad part of hell. I remember witnessing to a Marine when I was active duty and he was Catholic. I talked to him about his need of Salvation. And he said, oh, don’t worry about me, because when I get up to the Pearly gates, if Jesus won’t let me in, I could go to Mary and she’ll let me in through the back door. And then there’s another person that I heard describing hell. And these are all people coming from Catholic backgrounds or similar backgrounds. And this one person said, I think he was terminally ill and someone asked him, Are you afraid of dying? He said, oh, no. And the person asked him, Will you go to heaven or hell? He’s like, I’d rather go to hell. And the person was astonished, like, Why would you want to go there? He just flipped it. They said, Think of all of the interesting people that you’ll meet there. And I thought, you’re not meeting any interesting people in hell. This is not some vacation that you’re going to go to forever and ever, and you just roam hell and meet so called interesting people. The gentleman that thought that he could have Mary let him in through the back door. This idea that somehow you can escape the wrath of God by any other means except the shed blood of Christ. They’re in for such a rude awakening when it comes to hell, because they simply have no idea my concern with literature like the Inferno or Catholic teaching or any such thing like that is that it’s misleading many generations of people into thinking that this is just some tolerable slap in the hand after death because we all like to think that we’re not as bad as that guy, or we’re not as bad as that person when, in reality, as MCG said earlier, the magnitude of hell is magnified because of the Holiness of God. Right? So the thing about hell, I think folks need to understand, as we said in the description of Hell to her, the places is a place of punishment. As Jay said, it’s not a place of vacation. This is a place of punishment purging, either. People tend to think that before you get to hell, you can purge yourself like that’s. That idea of purgatory, right? Like you can somehow earn your way, or people can pray you out of purgatory. You can be purged or something before you go to these places. Like, even if you died deserving hell, you can somehow get out of it after you’ve died. But we know Scripture is clear that first comes death, and then there’s judgment. There is no. And I think if we understand the description of hell where the worms diet, not the fire is not crunch, it’s a place of torment. It will be Luke chapter 16 It’s a place of horror. The Bible even described it there, and I know it doesn’t essentially mean to literally pluck out your eyes and cut off your hands. But this is a place that you want to avoid at any cost if you can avoid it at any cost.

When you look at the names of Hell, I listened to Ron Comfort son in law Mike Pelletier, preached a message one time entitled The Names of Hell. And when you look at the names and descriptions that go along with them, like Gehenna, Hades and so forth, they each have some interesting imagery that goes along with them. One has the idea of drums beating, one has the idea of screaming and so forth, and he combines all of these elements as he’s preaching. And it’s an awful, awful place, even just from so many different ways, just from the direct descriptions of Scripture to these ideas like I said, that are carried along with the names of hell. And it’s the grave. It’s the place of the dead. The Bible says it’s an awful awful place. And yes, it’s not something that anyone should want to go to. And as we pointed out, even though there might be degrees of punishment, the lowest degree is going to be an awful place where there’s still going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth and fire and darkness. And you’re going to be the object of God’s wrath. So yes, people aren’t going to be walking around talking to each other and having conversations and finding out what they did in life. They’re going to be screaming and wailing and gnashing. And I never mentioned before, God won’t be there that alone should be sobering.

You’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We’re sitting down with DW, and we’re discussing hell and a loving God. We’ll be right back

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All right. So DW, our justice system in the US gives criminals a second chance. Why is it that we kind of get a second chance from God? There are many ways that I could answer this question. One of them might be we can because we are already, like mentioned earlier in John chapter three. And it also mentioned something similar in first John, we’re already actually the objects of God’s wrath because we’re sinners and because we’ve sinned. And so the idea that we can have the gospel presented to us and be redeemed is a second chance you’re talking about from the standpoint that once you’ve entered into hell, why can’t you get a second chance from God? And that’s because it is for by Grace or you save through faith. And once you’ve passed into eternity, it’s no longer faith. It’s sight. The Bible says that it is appointed and a man wants to die and then the judgment. So there’s no opportunity to express faith after death, because now it’s sight. And then the only thing left for you is judgment. Yeah, and I would definitely agree. And I also said that I think we have not only gotten a second chance, we were given a second chance in the person of Jesus Christ, and you didn’t mention it first, but you alluded to it. He was 927 and the appointment of mine wants to die. But after this, the judgment, so definitely. I think we have definitely been given a second chance in Jesus Christ. I have nothing to add, and I think it’s important for us to remember that no one can find fault with the Lord. Let every man stop his mouth. Every man is a liar. God is the truth, because while we’re alive in this body, we don’t just have second chances. We have a gazillion chances to get right with God. Every single day. Every moment that we draw breath is an opportunity to get right with God. When the hammer comes down and we stand before him, none of us will be able to point a finger at him and say, Why can’t you give me another chance? You had all your chances, and I think it’s important for us to exhort or mourn ourselves the audience that the patience of God at some point will be exhausted with you. And if every time you hear the gospel, you Harden your heart, you’re making it that much more difficult to receive it later on. And this is not something to trifle with. God is very merciful, but that mercy will come to an end at some point you’re talking about circumstances.

Would a place like Purgatory be more loving than a Harbor place called held in? Well, first of all, I’ll be Frank. I don’t actually know a whole lot about Purgatory, except the little bit that I have read of Dante’s Inferno, which is very little and knowing a few Catholic friends that have tried to describe it to me and so forth. Purgatory doesn’t actually seem like a very super place either. I mean, they talk about your iniquities being burned away and so forth. So the idea that God would torture me for some indeterminate amount of time, I don’t know how that would be more loving. It’s not forever, but sure, it’s not forever, but it’s not the Bible, and God is loving. And so everything that he does is right and good. Deuteronomy 32 Four says he is the rock. His ways are perfect. All his work is judgment, the God of truth without iniquity just and right as he. And so everything that he does is just and right. And he’s a God of love. So if Purgatory would be more loving, God would have created it, but he didn’t. So no. Yeah. And I want to make it clear that there’s no such place as Purgatory just to be plain and clear. There’s no such place as Purgatory. There’s no such place as Purgatory. And every single person that I’ve spoken to that believes in it. When I asked them, is there any way to be sure that you’ll be in heaven or wherever none of them are sure? So how can they be absolutely sure that after spending however much time in Purgatory that you’ll end up in heaven anyway? So no, I think it’s much more loving to put it right in front of you and say, hey, these are your options. Heaven or hell. This is how you get to heaven. This is how you end up in hell. Pick one and then there’s no question about it. I wonder what if there’s no lingering about it? It’s clear and the decision is in your court. I think that’s much more loving. I’d much rather if I have cancer, the doctor told me, look, you’ve got cancer. You can take the medicine and live or you cannot take the medicine and die. So which one is it instead of saying, Well, you have cancer, but we might be able to do you see what I mean? I think it’s much more loving for there to be an actual place called Hell because your toes are dangling over the fire, and you have to make a decision for Christ or not, period. Get it done. Which is, I think, much more loving.

Yeah. My question is, though, more loving, for whom you think about John 15 and verse 13, the Bible says here greater love has no man than this that a man laid on his life for his friends. Jesus did not only die for his friends, but for his enemies. Also, God chose to Butcher his son for us. Can that be any more loving? Great point. So you’re talking about perhaps it would be more loving, but what God did for us to his son, Jesus Christ, can it be more loving? And he declared that your chance to escape hell is while you’re alive, right? Until you see your sin for what it is. I think when we see our sin for what it is, then we see our punishment is what we deserve. I think a lot of times we see our sins as not being that bad or not being that gruesome or not being that sinful. So therefore, we don’t think our punishment should be that bad. Even comparing that to the US Justice system, where all give them a second chance. Well, like I said before God, I have already given us a second chance. But the reason why we say give them a second chance is because we believe that they’re somehow redeemable or they somehow can change. Well, God has given you 1020, 30, 40, 50 years, 60 years, however line you live, that’s your chance. And every breath you take is another chance you have. So how many chances should God give you? Because if you count them by your breath, then God will give you multiple chances to repent and trust him. So I would say no. A place like purgatory will not be more loving because Firstly, a purgatory does not exist. But God in His Grace has chosen to sacrifice his son. And I’m going to quote someone, I don’t have the person name, but someone much smarter than me says there’s no biblical support for the notion that after death, people get another chance to repent. Hebrews 927 make it clear that everyone dies physically and after that comes to judgment. Christians have already been judged and sentenced. Jesus took that sentence upon himself. Our sins become his and his righteousness become ours when we believe in him. End quote and that does take me right back to one of my favorite verses. Second Corinthians 521 for he had made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. What an exchange. The exchange was Jesus Christ. And I honestly believe that that’s where our second chance lie. In Jesus Christ, not in a place that the Bible never talked about. That was created by religious men called purgatory.

Talking about Christians and unsafe people. We know Christians, those who die trusting the Lord having been saved by Him, justified by Him. We know that they go to heaven and we know that those who haven’t go to hell can they be happy Christians? I mean, be happy in heaven knowing that they have loved ones that are in this terrible place that we’ve been describing. I would say yes, because I can’t imagine that God would allow that God would allow us to be unhappy in heaven. And if we are unhappy in heaven, I think sadness is an outflow of human emotion and probably some degree our sinful nature. I could be wrong on this, but I don’t have any concrete verses. I can think of. Revelation 21, verse four, God will wipe away all the tears. Luke 20, verse 35. There will be no marriage given into marriage in heaven, and the reason why I bring out the verse. I’m not quite sure that we’re going to recognize human physical relations. I don’t know if I’m going to look across and say, oh, that was my mother or that was my brother or that was my wife up on Earth. I could be wrong. I don’t see any verses here that clearly described that, but I wonder, are we going to be looking across and say, oh, that was my son on Earth? I don’t know the Bible. Never. I couldn’t find it birth. I clearly show that so will be recognized that they are in hell.

In one Corinthians. Chapter 13, it says that we shall be known as we are known. So when I look at that verse, I think about my relationship with my wife, and even though my relationship with her won’t be the same, she won’t be my wife anymore, because the verse that you just mentioned there where we will be neither married nor given in marriage, but at the same time will be known as we are known. And so when I think about my relationship with my wife and with my son, even though my relationship with them will change at the same time, we’ll still know each other in some manner. And even though that relationship may have been dissolved, there will still be some understanding that will be known as we are known, which is present tense, the second part of its present tense, first part of its future tense. So at some point in the future here in heaven, we’re still going to be known as we’re presently known in some capacity. I don’t know exactly how that works out, but that’s what I take from that. I don’t know how it’s going to work out either. But back to the question, though, as far as can we enjoy heaven? And like you mentioned, Revelation 21 four there where it says that God shall wipe away all their tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, because the form of things are passed away. So God is somehow is going to remove this sorrow from us. Exactly how that’s going to be removed. The Bible doesn’t tell us. Some people think the memory of those that died without Christ is going to be removed from us. The Bible doesn’t explicitly say that, but it does say that God is going to remove sorrow from us. So whether or not we will remember them and so forth is not known. But it is known that SAR will be removed. So yes, we somehow will enjoy heaven, irrespective of the fact that some of our loved ones didn’t come. Yeah, I think about it this way, though. Again, I don’t think the Bible is super clear on this in terms of going to details on this, but think about it this way.

The Bible says that when we see him, we’ll know him because we’ll be like him. Grossly paraphrasing that verse, but basically what that verse is. And I think that’s first John three, verse two, now that we are the sons of God, and it do not yet appear what we shall be. But we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see him as he is. So I’m thinking here. So if we’re going to see God as he is and we’re going to be like Him, that means to something. We’re going to have a full understanding of God’s Holiness and a full understanding of God’s Justice. And I think if we have a full understanding of God’s Holiness and God’s Justice, we go to see sin for the gruesomeness that it is. I don’t think we can fully understand a lot of things in our human flesh. I don’t think we can fully understand the Holiness of God, the justice of God or even the sinfulness of sin. But I think when we do get into heaven, all those things will be fully understood. Again, I could be wrong on this. I don’t have a verse that say exactly what I’m saying here, but I think because you got to have that full understanding of it, we will see to some degree we might even see our loved ones have received their just reward, the just punishment. Maybe the example would be as much as I love my son if my son grew up and do some crazy crime. Let’s say he God forbid. Let’s say he becomes a mass shooter. Am I going to stand behind him as a dad and say, no matter what, my son should not be punished? Or should I say my son has committed a horrible crime and he should receive the punishment that’s tough even think about it. That’s really hard, but that’s a human emotions coming out as from someone who doesn’t fully understand or fully comprehend in my flesh. But I think when we see him and we’d be like him, maybe we’ll look at them and say, you know what? You had chances, you heard the gospel, you know that you needed to repent and trust Christ. But you never did. Now you’re receiving a just reward. Again, even as I think about that’s, tough because I have unsafe loved ones. I’m thinking, Man, can I truly see them and know they’re in hell and be happy? But at the same time, maybe it might just be easier to forgot to remove that memory. So you’re not sad. But again, I don’t know the thing that was coming to mind. There is.

I mean, I thought of a very similar illustration to what you were saying. As far as your son committing a crime. I was thinking the same thing as we were talking. But another thing I thought about is my dad passed away about a year ago, and when it first happened, I was very sorrowful. And when I dwell on it, when I think about it, if I spend any time thinking about it, it’s still hard for me to think about, but yet I don’t always think about it. And honestly, a lot of the time I don’t. And the reason is because there’s life. There’s so many other things that I have to focus my attention on and dwell on and think about and so forth and in eternity, even though we might know. Actually, Revelation 2014 comes right after the Great White Throne judgment. So a lot of people think that this guy wiping away the tears is from having seen all their loved ones that weren’t saved being cast in the Lake of Fire. There’s a lot of people that subscribe to that. I don’t know that that’s the case, but it’s at least possible. And yet when we are in heaven after that scene there at the Great White Throne judgment, we’re going to be just permeated with the presence of God and seeing Him and being able to fellowship directly with Him and being able to talk to Him and learn from Him and worship him. And there’s going to be lots of other things that will permeate our eternal existence. And I don’t think we’re going to have a lot of time or give a lot of thought to these things. So even if those memories are not necessarily purged from us, it’s not going to be something that we’re going to dwell on. So the short answer is yes, we’re going to enjoy heaven. Yes, definitely. Regardless of the choices of our loved ones. I definitely think that God is going to work that out in some way.

But the question begs, though, is it fair for anyone to receive the same punishment as maybe someone like Hitler or think about insert historical bad man evil figure X. Yes. Is it fear for anyone to receive that just punishment the same punishment as them? Well, again, I would subscribe to the idea that there are probably degrees of punishment in Hell, so I don’t know that someone like Hitler is going to necessarily receive the same punishment as someone else. It’s still going to be awful, and so do they both deserve to be in hell. And the answer is yes, and the reason is because they have offended and infinitely Holy God. And the punishment for offending an infinitely Holy God is an infinite penalty, and that infinite penalty is eternal in the Lake of Fire or Hell before that. But then the Lake of Fire. So yes, because it’s not necessarily so much about the degree of their evilness, but the fact that they were wicked. The fact that they had iniquities Proverbs 522 says his own iniquities shall take the wicket himself, and he shall be holding with the cords of his own sins. I’m not going to go to hell for anyone else’s sins. I’m going to go to hell because if I died without Christ, rather I would go to hell for my own sins, not for the sins of other men. And I’m going to receive an eternal infinite punishment if I died without Christ because I have offended an infinite and eternal God. Ezekiel 1820 says that the Son shall not bear the iniquity of the Father. Neither shall the Father bear the iniquity of the Son, and the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. So every man is going to be judged for his own sin. In Revelation chapter 20, it talks about how the dead shall appear there at the Great White Throne judgment, and they’ll be judged according to their works, not somebody else’s works, but they’re going to be judged according to their works. And because their name is not found written in the Book of Life, they’re cast into the Lake of Fire. Yes, the answer is yes, it’s completely just the punishment that they’ll receive is going to be completely just because God is a just God and because they’ve offended him.

Yeah. The question begs in my mind, though, I know we’re going to get this a little bit later on. But why do someone end up in hell? Is it because they have done bad things, or is it because that they have never trusted Christ as their Lord and personal savior? I thought at length about this question, especially recently, and what I believe the Bible teaches is that they will stand at the judgment because they have not received Christ as their Savior. Then they’ll be judged for their sins. It’s a bit of both. Yeah, I think, because the fact that we are all sinners for Bible for all that sinner comes short of the glory of God, there’s not a just man upon to Earth to do good and Sinnot because we are all sinners. And if we die with a Christ, we are going to go and receive all just punishment for our sins. I think if someone truly asks the question, is it fair for you to receive the same punishment of Hitler? I think you’re missing the point because you’re looking at someone else and you’re comparing yourself to them to them. Exactly. And the point is, you need to compare yourself to God. How do you look when you compare yourself to God? I think then you will see the gruesomeness of your sin as I’ve alluded to over and over in this episode that our sin is gruesome when we compare it to God. And when we see the gruesome as our sin, I think we can equally see the love of a savior and the just punishment for our sin. Think about it. Our sins put Christ upon the cross, but it was a small little white lie, quote, unquote. Or it was the sin of Hitler. All of those sins put Christ upon the cross and he died for all of them. So I think the person perspective would have to change from the horizontal view to a vertical view looking to God and not to fellow man.

I think that’s a good .1 of the things that makes the current social justice movements in this country or throughout the world so insufferable is this idea that I could look at you and say that you’re this evil, horrible, terrible person but me, I’m not that bad. We’ve referenced Hitler several times in the recording tonight. I think we’re fooling ourselves if we think that if we weren’t in his same circumstance, if we had the same power and was in the same environment that he was, that we wouldn’t have done the same thing. Of course we would have. It’s just that we’re the popcorn seed, we’re the Colonel, and he’s further along down the line, he’s already popped and blossomed into whatever that the full extent and expression of evil that he was. We just haven’t gotten there yet. But all of what made him what he is. We have in us, too. It’s just that we haven’t been in the position to blossom to that extent. I use the word blossom. Go ahead. We’re definitely capable, absolutely capable. And if we were in that situation, we would most likely do the same thing apart from Christ. If it weren’t for Christ, we would go that same route. So to look at anyone else and to compare yourself to anyone else and think anything remotely like, I’m not that bad is a sin in and of itself. It’s presumptuous, it’s self righteous, it’s pompous, it’s arrogant. And like you said, MCG, comparing yourself to the Holiness of God is the only way to really see how sinful we actually are. It’s a misplaced focus. I think you’re focusing on the wrong object. If you’re looking at someone else and say, oh, I’m not as bad as that person. It’s a misplaced focus, because even in my life, when I look at even for the Christians, at times, I can look and say, oh, yeah, I saw Wind and I read my Bible. I pray, I do this. I do that, and they don’t. And I look at it and like, okay, well, that make me a better Christian than they are, which he doesn’t. It’s the same folly, right? Because if I put my focus towards Christ, I realize, man, I’m nothing. I’m a realm compared to what I ought to be when I compare myself to what the Bible say I ought to be and what I’m actually am. I realized, man, even presently I have fallen short and that should drive you to the cross. And that’s what would happen if you compare your sin to the Holy of God and not to Hitler. It will drive you to the cross because you realize how sinful you really are. What about those who have never heard? We talk a lot about people who are willfully sinning and those who are willfully, allowing themselves to become the greatest expression of evil that they can or those that are selfrighteous and trying to make themselves right with God either way.

But what about the people who genuinely have no capacity and no ability to decipher between the truth of Scripture and their sin or their need for a savior? Well, Firstly, I would say, I don’t know that they don’t have the capacity or never heard that to me. When I look at Psalms 19, verse one, the heaven declared the glory of God and the firmament shortage handy work, Romans 117 to 20 for daring is the righteous of God revealed from faith to faith. As it is written, the Josh shall live by faith, for the right of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth and unrighteousness, because that which may be known of God is manifesting them, for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things which are made, even His eternal power and God so that they are without excuse. So this is a question that comes up a lot, even when he witnesses people. I remember one guy asked me, what about those people in and he mentioned South America, and he mentioned the Amazon, and I said to him, don’t worry about them. The Bible has a description for that in Psalm and in Romans that I just read. What about you? You have heard? Have you made that decision for Christ? I firmly believe that God revealed more light as that light sought and their stories and their testimonies that I’m sure all of us have heard before where someone was trying to find the true God, the God of creation, and God sent a missionary in or God send someone in to give them that light. God has revealed Himself through creation. As the Bible says, they have been declared the glory of God. And I truly believe if they take that light that their creation give them and they seek further light on that, God will make a way and a provision for them. But at the end of the day, if anyone died with a Christ, they are without excuse. Actually, you just read that verse. And actually, it’s surprising to me because that verse is saying a lot about if we applied our human minds to studying general revelation, that is, creation, everything that we see in creation. That verse says that we can understand the Godhead by looking at nature. There’s a lot that we can learn about God by studying what’s revealed in nature. Now, obviously, we need special revelation in order to understand the Salvation. Of course, what I’m saying is this idea that those who haven’t heard will be without excuse. That verse is saying a lot because thinking about the divine nature of God, like the Godhead, somehow that we’re able to apprehend that just by looking at general revelation, that’s a lot about God to be able to discern from general revelation. I just thought about that while you were reading that, but sorry, go ahead. Dw.

I was just going to concur with a lot of the statements that have been made. John One Nine says that Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world. And Jeremiah 20 913, although talking about the nation of Israel there. But it’s a principle that’s seen and many other verses as well. The Bible there says, and you’ll shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart. And as MCG was talking about, there are lots of stories around the world of missionaries going in and how some of the people were seeking for the truth and so forth. I thought of a couple of accounts and one of them is out of a book about a missionary by the name of Bruceco, who goes and to witness to these people called the Motelone Indians in Central America. And he goes there, I won’t recount the whole story for sake of time. But through some bizarre set of circumstances, he makes it to this tribe, and he’s trying to learn their language and they almost kill him at one point and so forth. But then they decide to bandage his wounds and so forth, and he’s still alive and still down there ministering to them, actually. But at one point, when he’s learning the language, the one of the natives, one of the Indians, the motherland Indians there, he notices that every day this Indian goes and climbs this tree and he yells something out to the horizon. And as Bruceco learns the language, he finally starts understanding what he’s saying. And this motel and Indian would climb the tree, and he would shout out to the horizon, Whoever made you, I want to know you. And so Bruceco becomes convinced that the whole reason that God burdened his heart to come to these Indians in the first place was because this man was climbing the tree and crying out to God. So God has given us the light of conscience. He’s given us the light of creation. And if we will respond to those things that He’s given us, then he will reveal himself to us. And just to put in a plug here that we do have a series called on the Mission Field, where we actually interview missionaries who are currently on the mission field, reaching the loss. And I say on the mission field, I mean on the mission field in a foreign country, because I do believe that if you’re Christian, we are all on the mission field and every unsafe people we meet is the mission field, but definitely people that have decided to leave their home and go someplace as what is in the US. The ones that we have done thus far have all been outside of the US. But definitely.

So let’s answer the million dollar question, why would a loving God send anyone to hell? And did he make any provision to escape the punishment of hell? I threw that one UDW. Well, to answer the first question, why would a loving God send anyone to hell? Some people have suggested that God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, that they send themselves there essentially by rejecting his son. And so I see an element of that being true, perhaps. But the Lord Jesus Christ even said to his disciples, don’t fear him. Once they have killed the body can do no more to you. And I’m poorly paraphrasing. And I don’t have the verse in front of me. But he says, fear him, who once he has killed the body, can destroy the soul. In Hell, the word destroy there doesn’t mean to annihilate the word destroy there. He’s talking about destruction and fire and so forth. And so he does take responsibility for casting those people into hell. Jesus says to those who cursed depart from me into everlasting fire. So he’s telling them where to go. He’s sending them there. And in Revelation, chapter 20, verses eleven to 15, it says, and I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it from whose face the Earth and the heaven put away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead small and great stand before God. And the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of Life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works, and the sea gave up the dead, which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works and death and hell were cast into the Lake of fire. This is the second death, and whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. So why would a loving God send anyone to hell? Because they sent against him. They chose to reject him, and because of that because their name was not found written in the book of Life, which it would have been written there if they would have received his son because of these things, because of the fact that they were born dead and their trespasses and sins because they’ve sinned against him because they rejected his son. He essentially has no choice but to send them to hell because that is the just rewards of their sins. So that’s why a loving God would do that.

An analogy, which is the Bible, of course. But an analogy that I’ve often used with people is if I was a judge and my son appeared before me, could I let him off if he killed somebody just because I love him just because he’s my son? And the answer is no, not if I’m going to be a just judge, and God is the judge of all the Earth, and he is just so why would he send someone to Hell even though he loves them because they’ve sinned? And they’ve chosen to reject his son? In Revelation 13 eight, it talks about the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, and that’s the Lord Jesus Christ. So before God even created the world, and being that he knows all things he knew about man sinfulness before man ever sinned. And so somehow amongst the Godhead between the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son, a plan was arrived at or created or decided. I don’t know exactly how this took place, but before the world was even created because God knew man would sin against him and would be consigned to this awful place. He made a way that man could escape this awful place. So that provision that was made was the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. And Isaiah 50 311. The Bible says that the Father shall see the travail of the Son’s soul and shall be satisfied. And so that provision that was made was the Lord Jesus Christ. In first John chapter two, it says that he is the propitiation or the sacrifice in our place, that’s the word propitiation means. It means a sacrifice in place of something. So he is the sacrifice in place of us. And so he is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. And one Timothy chapter three, the Bible says that he is the Savior of all men, especially of them that believes so. He died for everybody on the face of the planet, and to make that way that provision. And in John chapter number 14, verse number six, the Bible there recounts the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he says, I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And so he is that provision that was made. One Timothy chapter two, it says that God will have all men to be saved. And he says he gave himself a ransom for all. So there’s the idea that there was this ransom that had to be paid, and he paid it with his own blood. And so when the Lord Jesus Christ died, he was that provision. And if any man will receive him, John 1112 but as many as received him to them gave the power to become the sons of God. But the only way that you would reach out to receive the Lord Jesus Christ is if you realize you were a sinner and that you were on your way to Hell, that you were going to spend an eternity separated from the love and mercy and light of the Lord, and that you deserve to this punishment because of your sin against an infinite God. Then you would reach out and receive the Lord Jesus Christ, that provision that was made and you would be saved from your sin and from the penalty of it.

Thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers Podcast. Thanks for having me.

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