Episode 58

On this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast we continue the series titled On the Mission Field, where we interview missionaries about the work they are doing across the globe to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to all the peoples of the world. We speak to Missionary Matt Allen, who is currently serving the people of Papua New Guinea alongside his family. Join us as we discover who the people are, what their spiritual needs are, and what we can all do to facilitate the preaching of the gospel in that country.

[Intro] I think the real issue is personnel. I’ll Echo Jim Elliot on this. God has not stopped calling. I think people have stopped listening. And so it’s a definite need for personnel. There’s so many more places across pumping any that need the gospel. And that’s just gonna take laborers. How should they hear without a preacher? And so that’s our greatest need, just people that are willing to give their life and say, Here am I send me, I’ll take the gospel. And even if it means and I think that this is important to understand, even like the Isaiah call, here my send me, even if it means I’m going to go and there’s not going to be fruit.

Thank you for tuning into the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

This is episode 58 of the Removing Barriers podcast, and this is a second in the series of on the Mission Field. And in this episode we’ll be going on the mission field with missionary Matt Allen, Papua New Guinea.

[Mutual Greeting in Pidgin]

Good job, man!

In Christmas of 2008 to January 2009, I had a pleasure to visit Matt’s parents on the mission field while met. And if family were on further in the States, I will tell you this. It had a lasting effect on my life. Matt, this is a pleasure to have you and welcome to the Removing Barriers podcast.

Thanks so much. Mcg and J, I’m so glad to be here with you guys. Thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it.

Great. Thank you for placing us in your busy schedule. So let’s get into it. Tell us about yourself, your family, your calling, whatever you feel comfortable sharing with us.

Yeah. So Becky and I, we were in Bible College and I just continually felt drawn to the mission field, and I don’t know how to put this other. Then that’s got to be the Holy Spirit doing his work to draw us. And at different points in time, we didn’t know. Where is that going to be? I guess later on we can talk about the specifics of what drew mate PNG. But as we went through Bible College, different points I thought might be South America, perhaps Venezuela, Columbia. We’ve got those general directions. And then the Lord opened the door for P and G. And so we finished Bible College in May of 2002. We both graduated and we were on the road full time about a month later for deputation. And then by the end of 2003. So a little over a year and a half we were deputation and onto the field, and I kind of look back on it and think, man, we were kids when we got here and of course, our little ones, our girls were three years old and 18 months at that time. Oh, wow. They were babies as we were arriving. And I look back and I think I was just a baby. Yeah. So that was 2003. We arrived. So I’ve been here 18 years now. Two different ministries did eleven years among the Kamaya, and then the last seven years, we’ve been here in Fort Mose capital city and two very different ministries, very different lifestyles.

Of course, we can talk about that as well. But, yeah, I remember meeting you have the wife and your parent when I was there. Any regrets raising your children in a foreign land?

Oh, wow. This is the first time I’ve had anybody ask if I had any regrets about it. No, I don’t have any regrets. Of course, there were difficulties as they grew up in a place that they’re the only white kid, right. And there was difficulties, but there’s no regret there.

I think, spiritually speaking, the thing that I love about this is the fact that my kids got to grow up watching the gospel, transform the lives of other people. And sad to say, if you grow up in the average Church in America as a kid, you just don’t get to see that everybody is good and everybody is doing right. And there’s not that transformation. And yet they got to see that on a regular basis. They got to see people who were lost in sin, and we pray for them as a family and then watches the gunmen transferring their life spiritually from that aspect. Yeah.

Great.

It’s been a wonderful thing for the kids to grow up here physically. And I guess this would be worldview. Oh, my girls they grew up with the world is at our fingertips of a cliche. But they’ve been all over the world as we’ve transited back and forth from the US to pop in a guinea with them as kids. And now is they’re grown. They came and visit us for the summer, and we didn’t even bat. And I put them on the plane to go back to the States, you know, who puts in 18 and one year old on the plane and Pat them on the back and says, Hair go around the world, you know?

Yeah.

And I think on their way home this time they hit Singapore and guitar, and then they transited through several airports in the US. Some folks would be I don’t think so. My girls are just as normal for them.

Yeah. I know. When I flew over there, it took us, like, 36 hours just to get there. And what stood out to me is when we were going back, we flew from Papa, New Guinea to Fiji then and CG. We left the Sunday morning and we arrived in La the previous Saturday night. Oh, like, yes, this is so weird.

Yeah. That’s that’s right. Yes. There’s a lot that plays with your mind on that coming from the US to hear you lose a day like one whole day just disappears. You take off on Monday and you land on Wednesday. And I usually tell folks, if you’re gonna make the trip, it’s gonna throw you off. Don’t try to figure it out. Just expect that you put a day into the bank and later on, you’re gonna get it back.

Yep. Yep. Definitely. So you have been in a mission field for 18 years. How long have you known the Lord?

I got saved when I was 13. That was 1992. I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a preacher. He wasn’t the pastor of the Church, but he was one of the young preachers in the Ministry. And so I grew up around the gospel. And at five years old, I made a profession of faith and even got baptized. You know, all my friends were doing that and I think it was the thing to do. But then as I became a teenager, I realized, wait, this needs to be real for me. And I remember kind of the night I wrestled with it for probably a year and the night that I finally just decide. Okay, that’s enough. I remember sitting down with my dad and uncle kitchen table and saying, “hey, look, I don’t think that I’m really saved. I need to get this nailed down.” And I’m so thankful that they were sensitive to the leading the Holy Spirit as well. And there was never a moment of, “But don’t you remember?” It was just, hey, this what’s gotten suing in your heart. You need to get things right with G and so thankful for that.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Give you a lot of times. Other kids grow up in Christian home and we tell them to save. So they grew up believing that they save and when they sin, we ask them to rededicate their life rather than to investigate whether or not they truly say at that young age. Yeah, definitely. And you have been married. I’m going to guess about 21, 22 years.

Good job. We got married in 1999. Yeah, 22 years now.

Great. Congratulations. You have many years on me. I’ve been married. Well, I’m going to guess here eight years.

Good job.

Going on nine.

I’m so glad you got it right, because I usually don’t. That’s good.

Alright. Just for the listeners’ sake. Where in the world is Papa New Guinea? Give us some…

Okay. Geographically. Yeah. So we’re just south of the equator and we’re just north of Australia. So if you’re listening from the US, then you spin the globe. There’s Australia. If you can’t find Australia, I can’t help you. This is just north of Australia. It’s the second largest island. Okay. Largest Islands, Greenland. They don’t have a lot of people, so they don’t count. The second largest island on the Eastern half is Papa Egine. It’s an independent country and the Western half is now known as West Papua. And it is a part of Indonesia. So really, there’s not much trade and travel that goes between the Eastern and Western house, just right on the border. There’s a little bit. And that would be mostly Indigenous people’s going back and forth across the border. But, yeah, we’re on the Eastern half about 800 different tribes. So that means 800 different languages, 800 different cultures, very different ways of living. And yes. So that’s Papua New Guinea. We’ve come to call it home, man.

So when you’re talking about Papua New Guinea, can you go deeper and explain more to us about how these different tribes…you mentioned 800 different tribes, 800 different languages. Do these tribes interact, what is the culture like in Papua New Guinea religiously, the breakdown. How does that work? See in America, obviously, we have 300 million people. But we can’t say there’s like, 800 people groups.

Right. Right. Right.

So how does that work and how do they interact? And how does that affect you as a missionary, trying to serve the people there?

Sure. Okay. Yeah. A lot of different avenues that I pursue here. So I’ll just start with traditionally. So figure 800 different tribes traditionally. So let’s roll the clock. Back. 100 years ago, we first had our first interaction for popping gene with the outside world. We would say colonization days. That would be the 1890s is when you first start seeing foreigners come in and praise God. Some of those first foreigners were missionaries. In the very first missionary, James Chalmers, came. He was from London Missionary Society. He came here, spent several years, and he was actually killed and eaten along the Southern Coast. We have descendants from the tribe, descendants of the people that ate James Chalmers, their great grandchildren are now in our Church here. So I roll the camera all the time back 100 years, we’re talking about 800 different tribes that did not interact. In fact, you could just imagine Tower Babel style. We speak our language. And if you don’t speak our language, then obviously you’re making fun of us whenever you do talk. And so then that created a lot of travel wars.

Now we come into more modern days. And MCG, you’ve seen the Kamaya. And when I say modern, because it’s now in the year 2000. Plus, a lot of those tribes are still remote. And yet a lot of people have now learned Pidgin is probably the most widely spoken language across the nation. So pretty much you could go into just about any of the tribes. And somebody in the tribe is going to be able to speak Pidgin. Not everybody will be, but at least somebody will be able to. And so then that helps them with opening up towards neighboring tribes. And so travel warfare still goes on.

In fact, here in the city, we probably have the greatest melting of different cultures here in the capital city. And tribal war is pretty normal. Here normal to the fact that probably within the last twelve months, we’ve had probably three or four major tribal wars to the point where just everybody in the city knows don’t go to that part of town because there’s a fight ongoing in the streets and chuckin stones at each other and shooting bows and arrows back and forth. If they got access to guns, they’ll use those machetes, that sort of thing. And so like I said, it’s three or four occurrences, and those will last. A normal occurrence will last for two, three, four days.

So, quite a bit of a tinderbox. So you never know when something’s going to happen. But then when it does, nobody’s surprised because everybody knew there was something come in. It’s been brewing for a while. And now usually somebody got killed on one side. And it could be any number of things. Somebody got killed on one side. Now, according to the culture: payback. And so then the other tribes going to lose somebody for two or three. And then, of course, now the payback was over the lines. And that’s what kicks off a major travel work. And so you see that across the nation, coming back to being able to communicate between tribes along the Southern Coast, here is more Mo to Amoto would be a trade language. Police Moto is what it’s called. And that would be quite common along the Southern Coast. However, you go into the interior, and nobody, really the rest of the nation knows that language. So Pidgin has taken a much stronger hold here. Pidgin, the English derivative. There’s some Portuguese words thrown in there, some Dutch and some German. And we gave a little sample that there at the beginning at the intro.

Yeah, from a religion standpoint. Okay, so the State Department says we have 26% as Catholic. I probably would push back against that. I don’t see as heavy as that number here as a whole, the nation considers themselves. And there’s actually a big push for this in Parliament right now to change the Constitution and name the country as a Christian nation. However, I would wholeheartedly push back against that notion, given the fact that we have massive rampant gender based violence. And we’ve got sorcery accusation related violence, we have travel wars on our streets. It’s one thing to put Jesus on your shirt on your hat. Totally different thing for him to rule your life. And so the one gets to be called a Pharisee. The other one gets to be called Son of God. What’s the population number? We don’t know. So we’re 20 years since the last census. So if you were to Google, how many people in Papa, New Guinea, I think the first five responses would give you five different numbers. So we kind of take an average and we say maybe 8 million is what we’re thinking we’re supposed to have had since this year, and that got postponed again. So nobody really knows how many people. I think the last official census was five and a half million, or 6 million. I’ve seen numbers a size twelve, but we’re somewhere in that eight to nine range. Something like that.

Fair enough. You know, have you talked about the different tribes in different languages? What came back to my mind when I was there, I remember meeting I think it was the chief. I don’t remember what exactly a call, but of the tribe, but he was married to someone from a different tribe, and she didn’t speak his language and he didn’t speak her language. But when you speak his language, she understands. And she replied to him in her language, and he understands. And he was like, okay, this was kind of weird. I don’t know if you have seen into marriage like that where one tried married someone from another tribe, but they can’t understand each other but can’t speak it other languages.

Yes. And so you’ll see that quite often where bordering tribes, sometimes the languages will be different, but there’s enough of a similarity so that they can hear each other. And I got to say one thing that Papua New Guineans are really good at is learning languages. I don’t know. Maybe it’s because I grew up as an American and never heard other languages in my little town, the corner of Valley Station, Kentucky. You know, I just never heard any other languages around me. And so when I came here, I was like, oh, my goodness. Where do I even start? And for them, it’s so normal for them to have people to speak other languages around that they do learn languages very well. Several friends that are able to speak in three, four, five different languages, and none of that, they’ve never done anything formal with it. It’s just they’re gifted the way. But, yeah, what you described is rather normal guy. One tribe married is a lady of another tribe. He can understand her language, but he can’t speak it. She can understand his language. He can’t speak it. Well, you want to talk about getting down to the heart of a matter argument? I just I don’t know that I can cancel that.

Yeah, that was pretty interesting. I must say, though, because the people of PNG is some of the most friendliest people I’ve ever met. They always smiling, and they always welcome in open. And I had the privilege of having someone from Papa Guinea as my roommate the very same semester I was actually going to go to Papa a guinea. So the low work at all. I’m telling you, that’s awesome. I remember folks from PNG that was in College. They always friendly, always smiling. The lady is going to give me a hard time, though, because I was trying to practice my pigeon on them. Okay. She would not let me go until I say correctly. Oh, good. So I was like, Man, I would have to start hiding from this one, but they’re definitely friendly people.

Yes. Great folks here. If you were to Google Safety of Fort Morris, be we reaching come up in the top five least livable cities of the world. Crime is a big issue. But I got to say, by and large, let’s say we’ve got a couple of bad apples that are really given a bad name. The whole nation takes a black guy because of that, the rest of the nation. Oh, my goodness. The camera people that we lived among absolutely loved them. I never had any problem. We never had crime in the village. Yeah, sure. Somebody stole somebody else’s chicken. But, you know, we ever felt threatened there. Living here in the city is a different ball game in terms of you’re always watching over your shoulder and security guards and all that stuff. You go to the grocery store and there’s a security guard on every aisle making sure that nobody’s stealing the food off the grocery store, the shelves. But when it comes to relationships, I mean, everybody treats each other like family, and that’s a huge blessing.

I know you’re touching this a little bit when the Lord first burdened your heart for PNG, but dive a little bit deeper. Why Papa New Guinea. Yeah. Okay. So as I look back in my life, God uses influences and counselors and circumstances, even to kind of shape and mold the direction we’re going. I heard somebody say once the will of God is like a loaf of bread, you only get one slice at a time. And how often we want to know what the slice it in the back looks like. Just take your time. And so I would say some of those shaping moments. One of them was when I was a teenager and my dad when I was a kid, we always have missionaries in the home. And dad was always talking about missions. Several points when I was growing up, I actually thought, hey, we’re gonna end up being missionaries. I’m gonna be missionary kid. Never expected that. I would go to the field. And then mom and dad would join me later. I never expected that. And so here, as a young person, dad brought home a video, and I don’t even know where he got it. It was a video called ETA. It was put out by New Trips Mission, and they just kind of outlined what their process was for presenting the gospel to a new village, starting off with here’s creation and going all the way through what is seen and the fall of Adam and all of those things. And then here’s the presentation of Christ. And I remember watching that video as a kid and just going, wow, it would be awesome if I ever get to do that.

And so that kind of set my mind in motion towards PNG and then fast forward to being in my first year of Bible College, and I was in the dorm. I remember my dad sent me a cassette tape. We’d out a missionary Papua New Guinea, visit our home Church, getting up…

Brother, cassette tape? He sent a cassette tape?

Yes. I just dated myself. Yeah. Sent me the cassette tape and I played it in my dorm. And I remember sitting on my bed in my dorm just listening to this guy’s testimony. And I just thought, I don’t know, but I sure would love if God would let me do that. So I wrote him a letter because that’s pre email I wrote him a letter took like six months for him to get it. And maybe a year later or two years later, we visited them, visited their family here in Papa nine. And I just asked him at that point, I asked him if you knew of a missionary, and it was kind of like I’m asking for a friend if you knew of somebody that wanted to come, where would you say that? There’s a need. And he started telling me about the Comet people. And so that was kind of got planting those seeds.

And so we left from PNG, went back, finished Bible school. And I actually asked churches to pray for the five K villages because the names of the villages nobody would ever remember was Kanab coding Amina Canatia and Kim only knew the name. So the villages from sitting down and talking to folks that were here. But I never got a chance to go out to the Kadrin. That survey and by God’s Grace is wonderful enablement. We’ve now seen believers in all of those villages and a growing Church among the CMAA, which is the ultimate missionary dream. So yeah, praise God for those circumstances and those counselors along the way. And looking back 18 years later, just a praise the Lord for his mighty hand. I would have never expected. Now what we’ve see as you’re looking back and reflecting on these things, they always say hindsight is 2020.

What would you say to people who feel like perhaps God might be calling them to serve in Papua New Guinea? What are some things that you would recommend that they keep in mind or that they should be aware of if the Lord is calling them to serve in Papua New Guinea?

Yeah. I think it’s good for them to remember it’s a long ways away. So the introduction of Internet has been really nice. We were probably 2008. I don’t know. MCG when you were there, I don’t remember what they had for communication at Cody Dong. I don’t remember what we had in place at that time.

I think mom and dad had a I start to like, phone. That’s what I remember they had. And I take that phone. Yeah. And I think they actually had Internet. No, they didn’t. No, they had a computer, but I don’t think it was connected to the Internet.

Yeah. Those days we would wait until we went into town. So about every three to four months we’d go into town to get groceries, spend about five or six days in town to get groceries. And I remember walking up to the hotel lobby and plug in a dial up connection onto the laptop and download however many hundred emails came in over the last three or four months and then take the next few days and answer those. And the introduction of Internet now has really changed a lot of that connection. But even still and this is going to be the case anywhere you go. Christmas is and Christmas and Thanksgiving is not Thanksgiving. And being able to just come to terms with that and say, okay, yeah, I’m able to let goods and kindred go even this mortal life. I’ll let it go as well because I’m gaining something that’s so much better. And I can say wholeheartedly what Jesus said is true. If I let go of father and mother and brother and sister, he will give 100 fold. And I have hundreds of brothers and sisters. And sadly, I’ll say, the older I get, the fewer of the fathers here. But the number of men that have been fathers to me here, Papua New Guinean men that I look up to and respect and love Jesus’s words are without fail.

Yeah. That’s amazing. You know what was really lasting on me, and I think it would be probably true for most people in the west is that even though I’m not rich, I have so much.

True.

And I went among the Kamaya people for two weeks, and in our view, they have nothing. There were wearing grass skirts. They live in a hut. They basically was living day by day in terms of the food source. And I’m looking at it. And like, what do I have to be discontent about anymore? I remember that even when I was there, I don’t remember if I took my laptop with me or whatever the case, maybe just because I didn’t have any way to leave them. But I remember looking at these things like, these people are way more happier than half of the people in the US that have so much have a cell phone, they have an ipad, they have a MacBook and they have lights, running water, sanitary condition. And they’re going to see the counselor next week because they’re depressed. And these people have nothing…nothing, brother. And they’re so happy. It is like, wow.

Yeah. And then I remember the very last night we were there the past of the Church. And two of the men of the Church were at his home and we were sleeping one home down from them and they were playing the guitar and they were singing there’s some popular song of the Fate, and all the songs were either in F G. Or F and Brother listening to them as I fall asleep and realize, you know what? They’re not the best singers. They’re not really on key. And my heart was so blessed just to hear them sing that song. Man, that’s their entertainment. If I was in the US, I would be watching TV. But they’re just playing and praising the Lord and stuff like that.

Amen.

I say all that to say this when you think about the culture, we touch on it a little bit of how they are friendly and how they even the coming people, where you were among before you went to the capital city, the friendly. They have nothing. When you consider the culture that they have and compared to the culture you grew up in, how did you handle the difference and what? It’s easier to get accustomed to the Kamaya people because they were so friendly.

Okay. Yeah. So I think adapting is going to be the key. And just I think that probably the best example of this is going into the Kamaya. I expected, and I knew I knew there’s going to be a complete depravity of material things. Right, honey, we’re going in our first two years, no refrigeration, so no freezer. Any meat we were gonna eat had to be brought in, you know, can tuna fish or here. I don’t even know what you call it in the States spam. That’s about the equivalent. And so that was our meat for the first two years. And the first six months. We didn’t have a sat phone during that time. My grandmother passed away and I have no idea here. I come out a month later and somebody meets me. The airport here got this bad news. Sorry for you. And so during those early days, we went in knowing that we’ve got nothing, you know, the sun goes down, it’s going to be dark and sort of our hut. We lived in the hut for the first nine months. And so going into that, we went in accepting it. And so we just adapted to that.

And I think it’s been similar coming to more speed. I remember the day when we were building my house here in the concrete truck backed up and he’s pouring concrete. I just stood there, shook my head. I was like, I’m not among Kamaya anymore. There’s no concrete truck there, you know. And so you adapt to the surroundings. But the part that was hardest and continues to be difficult for me has been when I go back to the US. And so every couple of years I go back to the US, be there for a couple of months. And when I get back to the US, I actually struggle because, like, for example, I remember the first time I walked into the airport terminal, which I think you’ll enjoy this. My daughter Hannah, at that time, she’s probably five, maybe. No, I handle was maybe four. And we get off the airplane in LA. I walk into the terminal. And Hannah just reached up and grabbed my hand and she’s like, “Dad, look at all the white people!” You know, it was like this is a white box, you know? Oh, yeah, there are. And this is about to be normal for you now. But as I stood in that airport terminal, I was shocked at how many lights there were and that’s something that we in the west. You just take that for granted. And I just stood there and I was just shocked by there’s rows of fluorescent lights and they weren’t even fancy. They were just how many they were.

And the next day, I’m at the cracker barrel and I go to use the bathroom in the Cracker Barrel. And I’m shocked by how much water is in the toilet. It’s the land of plenty and so much plenty that we don’t even realize how much plenty is there. And so that led to a short period where I really began to get better, especially the first trip to the US. I would get really bitter and frustrated come into Church and it seemed like worship was quite shallow. Everything was very surface. And so I got a disillusion frustrated. Maybe it would be a better work with America. And so the adapting to come to PNG because I knew and expected. Okay, there’s going to be lack. That was for me. That was much easier than go into the States.

I’d forgotten what I’d come out of. I had a chat with my dad about this several years ago, and he helped me with perspective on it. And I think maybe this could be helpful for future missionaries. I don’t fault the came for having little and I shouldn’t fault the Americans for having much. It’s the culture within which they live. And just as I accepted the culture when I came to Papua New Guinea, I need to accept the culture when I go to the US. If I’m bitter at the people that are around me because of the way they are, I’ll never be able to minister to them. And so that was helpful for me. So by no means is any of this a condemnation. America’s plenty. Just recognize it and know that it’s there and that’s a part of people’s lives, whatever state I am deal with, I would be content that’s it that’s it can a bound. I can sit with Kings and eat with Kings, and that’s fine. Or I can sit in shackles and I’m gonna be content. So yeah.

So you said when you went first, you were living in a hut. But I remember also that you had your two girls there as well…

Yes.

…And your wife. As a father, the husband moving your kids to a hut…

Yeah.

Tell me about that.

Okay. So when we moved into the hut, so I went ahead of them. So we came out of the country and we lived in the little house next to another missionary family before we moved to the command. So I went up to live among the Kamaya. I spent about two months with them before I brought my family up. And that was entirely because I wanted to make sure that I had a few things in place, needed to have an outhouse with a whole dog before they got there and needed a roof over their head before they arrive. And so when I moved Becky and the girls and the first day, they were shocked at how far it was from the airstrip. They were like, dad, this is a long walk. He was like, don’t worry, honey, we’re only halfway there.

I remember that, too. A hike.

Yeah. And so then living in the hut, everything’s made out of what you can find in the jungle. So the framing is small trees, the young trees that have been cut. And then the wall is bamboo that has been dried, so cut, dried and then split. And you roll the bamboo out to make a flat piece. And then you weave so all of the blinds, they call them blind. So let’s make the walls out of the bamboo. And then the roof was bamboo leaves. And so hundreds of thousands of bamboo leaves. And they all get tied together to make a roof. What we learned quickly with having the family in the house. We learned very quickly was that cockroaches loved to live in that bamboo leaf up in the roof. And so we ended up putting mosquito nets over our beds. Not so much because of mosquitoes. We don’t want cockroaches dropping out of the roof in the middle of the night, while so bugs was a constant thing when we lived in that hut. And fair enough, we lived in that hut. While I was building our house, we took a saw mill in a wood miser saw mill, and I cut, I think maybe 200 logs or something. And we built the house. So our house was more log cabin style shiplap walls on the outside, what we could build from there. And that house was very nice for that surrounding. And we built the main living room big so that we could always be having people over and have people in for dinner and early days of the Church. That’s where we met for Church services. But, yeah, we’re no longer in a grass hut. It’s been a long time since we were there.

I’m sure you go in a scream of cockroaches and anything, right?

No, Hannah now she’s second year in Bible College. She has no problem barefoot. There’s a cockroach. She will step on it barefoot. And then she will use her toes to pick up the dead body and go put it in the trash. Doesn’t even bat an eye.

I am dying over here. You mentioned cockroaches, and my skin is crawling. Incredible. I’m just listening to what it’s like to live in a place that is so drastically different from the US, for example, what you grew up knowing and the comfort and the affluence that we have here. And so to have such a pull on your heart, to be willing to trade all of this comfort that we enjoy in the US, to go live among the people and to be with them and to show them the love of Christ, that’s nothing short of a miracle because your typical person is not going to want to do that.

And you talked earlier about understanding the culture and accepting it and appreciating it. I want to ask you, is the culture in Papua New Guinea, is it more of an Acts chapter two type culture like when Peter was preaching to the people, they had a basic understanding of who God was, creation, judgment to come, all those different things. And so that changed or that colored how he spoke to them about the gospel. Is that the kind of culture that’s in Papua New Guinea, or is it more like an Acts Chapter 17 culture where Paul is preaching to people who have absolutely no concept of God, creation, Nothing like that. And he basically started at zero. What’s the spiritual culture like in Papua New Guinea, Acts two or 17?

Yeah. Great question, Jay. Before I go into that question, if you don’t mind, I just want to take 1 second and just step back to the miracle. I think your words were the miracle of moving from one place to the other. I just want to say that’s God that does that. That’s entirely God. And I want to be very careful of ever taking any credit because that’s not me, that God gives a heart and I’m no different from the next guy on the street. It’s God that does that. So remember, I want to make sure that we don’t make missionaries idols, right? I appreciate the kind words and I want to definitely turn that to the Lord.

But to the question of Acts two verse 17, I think we’ve had the privilege of experience in both. In that C 17, a pre Church culture would be the came. When we first got there. I would go so far as and there would be some who might push back against this. But I would go so far as to say they didn’t even really have a full clear understanding of who God was. And so for them, their culture, everything and even still is by large influenced by peer of the spirits. And can I use a spirit to control the protection of my family? And if things are really bad with the guy across the Valley, perhaps I need to sweet talk my spirit into going across the Valley and doing bad things to their family. And so the spirit world for them. And we would say anything that has to do with the spirit world and interaction with the spirit world is gonna be demonic. And so that was very much their world view, everything. And I’m talking about all the way down to the necklace they wore, the plants they put in their yards. Everything has to do with the spirits and that controls their entire world view.

So I felt like we’re coming into that. Maybe they’ve heard the word God. Maybe they’ve heard the word Jesus, but they have no clue who he is and what he’s done. And so that we started with creation. And I mentioned the video of it. I’ve had the privilege of walking through that series with many different villages and watching folks come to Christ. Large numbers of people come to Christ at one time. That’s been an awesome privilege. So that would definitely I would say the tribal Ministry among the Kamala was more that a 17, whereas coming to More is more of an attitude reality.

Before we came, I think it was eleven years. It had been eleven years since the last Baptist missionary, but definitely doesn’t mean there wasn’t Baptist churches. There were 18 when we moved to the city seven years ago, there were 18 Baptist churches in the city, and the pastors of those churches, I knew them well. Several of them had invited and asked us to come, and we’re fulfilling the goal that was there. And that goal was the churches that were established. We’re doing a really good job of reaching into settlements, and they were struggling to be able to reach sorry to put it this way, but reach an upper class. We’ve just been I think God’s just gifted us with that. And so this is not at all boasting. God has just given us a good group of people that just never would have gone to some of the other churches just based on their location.

And so coming back to that two idea, many of the folks in our Church would have had some kind of a Church background, but not a full understanding of what the gospel is. And so as I look through our Church, I mean, how many people in our Church that I’ve had guess probably of the people that are members have gotten saved here. And I’ve had the privilege of baptizing them. And so like X to having the privilege to be able to stand like Peter and breach with a background that’s already there keeps easier. And so you give to see a speed of the gospel a little bit faster with this one.

What are some needs that, if fulfilled, would make your task and sharing the gospel in Papua New Guinea easier?

Oh boy, I know the natural reaction there is to go financial. God always supplies finances. I’ve just come to trust him on that. And so if we see a need, identify a need, God always. It’s just been amazing to watch him do that. I think the real issue is personnel. I’ll Echo Jim Elliot on this. God has not stopped calling. I think people have stopped listening. And so it’s a definite need for personnel. There’s so many more places across Poppin engine that need the gospel, and that’s just going to take labors. How should they hear without a preacher? And so that’s our greatest need just people that are willing to give their life and say, Here my send me, I’ll take the gospel. And even if it means and I think that this is important to understand, even like the Isaiah call, here my send me, even if it means I’m gonna go and there’s not going to be fruit. I’m still willing to go. But he’s the one who has sheep and other polls. So we’ll just trust him. We go and let him do his work.

Yeah. They said that we should still go, even though we don’t see fruit, because so many times in the state, I guess probably all the human ager we want to see fruit for what we’re doing. And of course, I just read a quote: God’s definition of success is faithfulness. And I think that’s what you’re getting at.

What are some of the things that you see coming from the Church in the US that makes your job as a missionary to Papua New Guinea difficult?

Two sides on this. I think so. I would say we got to be real careful with what we identify as the gospel. I guess that’s one. And then I have two problems off of that one would be if we’re not careful, we will package. I think I heard Steve Saint say this. We bring the bottle of water to the people is the picture of the gospel. We bring the bottle of water. And somehow the people think that the bottle, the container is the gospel. And then they walk away trying to duplicate the bottle when it was the water that was inside it, right. Sometimes I see our package as it works. We have to sing how many songs. And this is what they’re supposed to sound like. And this is how we dress when we go to Church. And I’m really thankful for my time along the Kamaya because I couldn’t tell anybody put a tie on. I had to tell some of the young people to put clothes on. It used to be at least a photograph hurt something. Yeah. The blessing of working among the tomato was I got the privilege to just strip everything down and go, okay. What is the gospel? And when we meet what’s that supposed to look like? And on a similar note, we’re still pre Internet, so I didn’t get the chance to jump on Google and go ask somebody. This is okay. I’ve got to get in the word and find out from the word. What is this supposed to look like? Because it can’t look like Valley Station, Kentucky. There’s a blessing in that. Okay. So that’s one prong. And I think that if we’re not careful will bring and I think this abroad name will bring legalism into our mission outreach to the point where those who are getting saved think that if I don’t have my white shirt with a tie, then I’m not doing right. I had a bit of pushback on that and this act to setting.

Okay, the other prong: packaging the gospel incorrectly would be Prosperity Gospel. And I don’t think any of our missionaries are doing that, but oh, how very popular that is. The prosperity Gospel. It just picks up and runs like wildfire, especially among people who are lacking, because if you can promise them that God is going to bless you tenfold, they’re going to go after it because they’re grasping for something. And sadly, that’s turning Matthew 624 on his head shorten the wrong master to try to gain the other master. Yeah. So I guess if I could say anything to our churches in America would be let’s make sure that what we’re sending them is just the gospel and let their Church take the flavor of what that Church looks like. And then I’m careful to use the term the Church in America, but maybe Christianity in America. My goodness, if we could just grow up and stop playing the Prosperity Gospel game, it’s devastating for people around the world.

Yeah, definitely.

You’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We’re sitting down with missionary Matt Allen to Papua New Guinea and we’re finding out all about his mission field. We’ll be right back.

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Alright. So Matt, we want to go into a little bit of fun section. Just find out some of your favorites. What is your favorite scripture verse?

I love 2nd Corinthians 5:21 “He has made him to be sin for us. Who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Amen.

I quote that verse almost every Sunday in our Church. I love that verse.

You know, that’s one of my favorite as well. I know he had something in common. We get the greatest exchange. He takes my sin and he gives me his righteous. I know. Great. I have been meditating on that verse for a while. The amazing or position in Christ.

Yes. When I think about that is like, what an exchange! He took my sin. Yes. Wow, that’s amazing. That’s one of my favorite first as well. I don’t deserve it.

Yeah, absolutely.

What would you say is your favorite historical biblical account? Some people will call it Bible stories. We don’t believe that. Here at the Removing Bears podcast, we believe every single word of the Bible is true. It’s not a story, man. So, what’s your favorite biblical historical account?

I love the Book of Acts, and there’s just so much going on there. I’ve talked through it in our Church here several times. I actually enjoy try to put pieces together from the Epistles back into the Book of Acts and see. Okay, where does it fit? And when was this written? And as Paul says, we have this great and effectual door open. And I think in it seems like this at Ephesus, the Church is expanding out into Colossians and all of those little pieces. So I just love in a way I want to be careful because it sound sacrilegious, but in a way, I feel like I get to live the act two or maybe a 2021. It’s a thrill to continue to be a part of moving the Church. But yeah, yeah, I love the Book of Acts.

Oh, listen, I’m going to think we planned this because Acts is my favorite book as well.

All right, let’s see how we go. Next one. I’m going to write it down. Yeah, let’s see this one.

What is the most convicting Scripture verse to you?

Oh, boy, most convicting scripture verse. Okay, how about Roman 6:11? “Likewise, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed, understand and alive unto Christ.” And so that’s convicting in that this is going to be a continual, ongoing struggle. But it’s also command to do it. And so if you are dead to sin, that’s what he says earlier in Roman 6. You’re dead to sin. Should not continuing it. Then reckon yourself to be that way. So there’s a command. And also the reality which Paul speaks up on seven. “Oh, wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” It’s going to be a struggle. And so let me follow through with a command. I’m going to do it. I will reckon myself to be dead to sin, but alive to Christ, alive to Christ. Then, Galatians 2:20, it’s no longer that lives for Christ who lives in me.

The goal of every Christian.

Amen.

What would you say is the most comforting scripture?

First, when you read it to you, Romans 5:1. We have peace with God through over Jesus Christ, therefore being justified, that’s it Romas five one, therefore being justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, because that’s all Genesis 3’s problem of us being separated from God in our sin. Now we’re at peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ in Him never to be blocked away. So thankful for that.

What about your favorite hymn of the faith?

Sadly, I’m not a music guy man. And so that’s my problem. The man. Really? I’m so sorry for them. Eleven years that I ministered among the Kamaya. I am not a music guy. So their music sounded horrible, their Congregational singing and, you know, everything rises and falls in leadership. So I take that to myself now. I’m thankful Sam and Mary Beth are there now. And Mary Beth is amazing. Amazing musician. She actually has been helping with writing songs for the Kama and composing music for them. And they sing beautifully now. So I don’t know if I were to say favorite him, I’m going to go with something like Blessed Redeemer or Wonderful Grace of Jesus. There are some modern hymns that I would say something like yet. No, I but Christ Through Me. The Goodness of Jesus. We’ve recently taught the Church The Goodness of Jesus. The goodness of Jesus is one that just brings me to tears. So yeah, I wish I could say here. This is my favorite sometimes a breakout and song. And Becky says, oh, you’re doing that out loud again.

This might be similar to the question we asked before about your favorite historical biblical account. But what is your favorite giant of the faith?

Definitely. That’s going to be Paul. Yeah. I’ll never be able to live up to that guy, but if I could stand on his shoulders, it’d be pretty awesome. Yeah. Apostle Paul, I love his writings and run a rise on some land. Let the thing out your way to be free praising God. I rejoice in the to be Papua New Guinea.

[uncertain rendering] sheltered from the mountains to see I-I-I-I that the phrase a voice and and proclaim how to you I now give thanks to the good order on for his kindness, his wisdom and love for this land of our Father. So free Papua New mini shout again for the hope of some a wire I wear a descendant on free.

What would you say are some of the biggest barriers to the people of PNG to receiving the gospel?

I don’t say this in any way to put down my publican and friends. I think that probably the largest barrier for us here. Could also be said in many places in many people’s around the world. I think pride is a big problem. And so if I’m being proud, I won’t listen to others. I won’t hear my own need of Salvation. And so I think that pride is a big issue. Thankfully, it’s not the only issue. We’re not the only people that have it. And so God has spoken to it. And one beautiful thing about the gospel is you’ve got to start off. There’s bad news and the bad news breaks down the price. And so when I get to the end of myself humble myself, then I know that there’s a space to be raised by our Lord. And a simple answer. Yeah, pride.

So please take a moment, share the gospel with us and tell us, how can that barrier of pride be removed not just in the lives of those folks in PNG, but also around the world. Like you said, pride exists everywhere. How can that barrier be removed by the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Yes. Thanks, Jay. The gospel is the only answer to remove the barrier, especially the barrier pride. And so, my son, even the sin of pride is what separates me from a Holy God. And he does not allow cannot permit sin in his presence. In fact, the Bible says that his wrath abides upon us and his wrath. And this is some Romans two words. His wrath is heaping up. The Book of Revelation says that there’s coming a day when those whose names are not in the book of life will be made to drink the cup of the wrath of God. And that’s a terrifying thought. And yet God sent Jesus to the cross. And I think there’s a beautiful picture here, as Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane the night before he goes to the cross, Jesus says, oh, Father, let this cup pass from me. And here’s the image of the wrath of God, instead of being poured out upon man, is going to be poured out upon his son at the cross. And so here’s Jesus taking the cup of the wrath of God. And he’s taken it on our behalf. And God is just in pouring out his wrath. He would not be just if he did not. And yet he poured out his wrath on Christ. And there’s Christ on the cross. Our sin was laid upon him.

So then now he has made it possible for us to be right with God. The only way to do that is by faith. And so we put our trust in the Lord Jesus. Jesus is the one who makes me to be right with God. Because Jesus took my sin on the cross. Then that comes back to that second Corinthians pace 21 God made him to be sin for us. He knew no sin so that we might be made the racist sense of God in him. It’s a full circle where I was starting with sin. I now get to be right with God. Instead of being separated from God, I get to be right with God. And that’s based on Jesus so thankful for the blood of Christ on the cross on our behalf.

Missionary Matt, thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

It was my pleasure. Thank you so much, man. God bless you guys. And thanks so much for putting us on and giving me the opportunity to be a part of it.

[Outro] Thank you for listening to get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to removingBarriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.