Episode 57

On this day twenty years ago, Islamic terrorists hijacked multiple commercial jetliners and crashed them into the World Trade Centers in New York, the Pentagon in D.C., and a field in Pennsylvania.  Nearly 3,000 people died and the nation changed instantly. The White House declared war on terror and vowed to bring the perpetrators to justice in response, but what actually happened was retribution plus twenty years of war seen as an abject failure. Where did America go wrong, and what are the spiritual considerations in a situation such as this? Join us on this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast as we begin to scratch the surface in search of answers. 

When the Americans were here. Were you and your men attacking this base? A lot? Oh, ready? Yes. Many times we attacked the space. When America was here, we did operations. We were using IEDs. The Americans had their helicopters, weapons and tanks on the ground. We mujahadeene resisted very well. It’s our belief that one day Mujahadeene will have victory in Islamic law will come not to just Afghanistan, but all over the world. We are not in a hurry. We believe it will come one day. Jihad will not end until the last day.

Thank you for tuning into the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m in CG and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross. This is episode 57 of the Removing Barriers Podcast, and in this episode we’ll be looking at Afghanistan, a spiritual perspective and we’ll talk about what happened in the light of Scripture. Joining us for this podcast is DW. Dw is recurring guest, but we also have a special guest, David He’s, a former member of the German military and spend a little over six months in Afghanistan. David, a special welcome to you and DW. Thanks for joining us once again. Good to be back. Thank you, sir. Great.

20 years ago the US was attack by what we believe are known now to be Al Qaeda and members of Islamic terror groups. As you look back 20 years, what do you remember? Where were you? What were you doing when you heard this news and what emotions, where welled up or came out in you?

I was in Washington, DC at the time, had already gotten out of the military. I got out in 2000. I’m a former Marine and I was actually supposed to be in a meeting in an office for one of our clients, probably about three blocks from the Pentagon and I called in sick that day. So miss the meeting. And then my roommate at the time was all excited, called me into the living room and I’m watching what’s unfolding and then saw the hit on the Pentagon and was completely flabbergasted. I didn’t really know what to say when it was discovered that it was Islamic terrorists. I was angry. I was ready to go back into the military. I had never been in war, even though I’d been in military for eight years. Only four years of that was active. I’d never been overseas, never been in war. But at that particular point in time, I was ready to go back in the military. I would have gladly gone overseas. So those were some of my feelings at the time. I was really blown away by the fact that something like this could actually happen to the US.

Oh man. Alright. So I was a junior in high school when 911 happened. I was going into my pre algebra, astronomic class do enrollment class that I was taking at the time. And because the teacher wasn’t an employee of the high school. She was an employee of the College. She had to unlock the door every morning. And so we would just went outside the door and she came running down the hall. She’s a little short stocky lady and running down the home. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Turn the TV on, turn the TV on. So we unlock the door, run in, turn the TV on and we see the towers smoking. Well, one tower was smoking at that time, and all of us were just, I mean, DW use the word flabbergasts, just. Goodness. It was a dream. Like, what exactly are we looking at here? We stared and we got and we were soaking up every single word. The news anchors were reporting every single update that came in. And while we were watching the north tower, obviously, I was on fire, but we couldn’t see that from the TV. We could just see it smoking. Then we saw the south area, and at that point, the teacher pretty much freaked out and said, okay, we have to turn this TV off. We’re traumatizing everyone. Okay, let’s try and get some work done. Obviously, no work got done that day. I can’t remember if we were sent home early because from what I remember, the entire country was in a state of alert and shock. Many children were sent home early. I do not think that we were sent home early, but when I got home that day, there was no playing around. There was no watching cartoons. There was no normal afternoon activities. We were glued to the news and just couldn’t believe it. And two years after that, I am listed and served knowing full well what we were signing up for. I didn’t know the extent what it would really be like to actually served during a time of war. But fully aware. And just like the W said, I felt angry, rage, almost very angry, very indignant, very emotional to see the imagery. Even today, every year, on the anniversary of 911, I will go back and I will watch those news cast it’s like it happened yesterday for me. And I feel very much the same way every time I see it. What keeps me in check and what blows me away is that I could feel all the rage and indignation and frustration I want. But those people that hijacked the planes and deliberately flew them into the tower, it blows me away, that Jesus died for them too. And I’m no better than them. And so that helps me pull back a little bit because you could let that anger swallow you up. Oh, yeah, that’s pretty much my experience of it.

One thing that I didn’t clarify, but I thought is pertinent to what I was saying. There is I was not saved at the time. And so even I didn’t get saved for another six years, roughly six years. But anyway, even looking back on it as a safe person, like there’s been a temptation to be upset at it. But like Jay said, I’ve often thought the same thing. Like, these are people for whom Christ died. I’ve thought about how awful it is that Osama bin Laden is now dead. He can never hear the gospel anymore, and he’ll be in health for eternity and how awful it is. I know there was a young man in our Church Academy at one point that was going to be a Marine sniper, and he was talking about how excited he was to use the. 50 caliber sniper rifle. I remember he was going to Afghanistan and I was talking to him and I said to him, Just remember that when you sit in on that Taliban soldier or whatever, the moment before you pull the trigger, that person could still hear the gospel the moment after you pull the trigger. If they weren’t saved, they’re in hell forever and you stopped and just really pause because what an amazing thought. I don’t say amazing and a positive way. I sat in a very sobering place. But anyway, I just thought I would add that when I had those feelings, those thoughts about what was going on 911, I wasn’t saved at the time. There was a rate that I felt as an unsafe person that now is tempered by the fact that I personally received a gospel, one that I would desperately wish to take the gospel to these people.

David, as a German bone, I’m assuming because for me as a Caribbean person, I didn’t have that strong emotion like Jmdw had. So let me get you in on what were your emotions like? And what do you remember about 911? I definitely remember where I was at the time. I was a teen in high school and we had the five day school trip to Great Britain, London, and at the time we literally visited big city of London and all the skies purpose around us. And then we heard the series and everything and we didn’t understand this. So one of our teachers talked to some guides and Greece forces pin were more and more present on the streets and we had to break up our tool. And then we found out that there was an attack in America. But we do know in details and the teachers were trying to distract us with let’s do this and here and there. And only later. I think it was two days later I went back to Germany and in school and with my parents day on and the German news as well. We found out that there were plans into the Tower of the World Trade Centers and many thousands of people died. And now that I look back with the Christian point of view, I was not safe at the time and I didn’t feel the emotionally attached to that country. I didn’t know someone from there I didn’t know their culture, but they are and hard to describe in words that not a person without empathy for others when they suffer or at that moment, I can’t remember that there was feeling anything about them or both ways, like the angry path I understand now, but also the sad part. I didn’t do anything. I was overwhelmed. I guess I would say I was too young to understand or complaint all those information at the time.

Yeah, I fully can understand your sediments, because for me, I remember where I was. I was actually being interviewed by two Americans at the Christian radio station for my very first job because I just graduated high school that year, and I was looking to start doing some College work. And I wanted a job to help pay for that College work that I was starting. And I remember they were constantly getting up, going to a different office. And I remember one of them coming back and say, I don’t know what’s going on in New York. And I remember I didn’t know what’s going on or anything. I would like, you know, why is it that they saying something going on in New York? Then it wasn’t until I actually finished the interview, got the job. And then I went to the bus stop and I got on the bus and the reader was plain and I realize, oh, there is plane slide into buildings in New York, but that was like a world away from me. As you said, I didn’t know anybody, you know, in New York that basically was injured or anything. It was really roll away from me. So I can’t remember if I had any real emotion towards it until maybe a month or two later, I was in a bus and there was this girl that I went to school with and someone was making fun of it and she gets so upset. And then she said that her mother was actually worked in the building and she was asking for what would happen if my mother was there. But fast forward to about 2006, when I came to the US for College. Then that was the first time I realized how significant and how painful and how hurtful this was for the US. I never comprehended until I actually stepped foot on the soil and really see American response to this. And I realized, wow, this was even much bigger than I imagine it would be. I knew it was big because all the import procedure and security procedures have changed. But I just thought, hey, did a stranger prevent it, but the impact and the life loss and the love ones that didn’t come home and stuff like that and honestly didn’t hit until I experienced it in the US for the first time. So that’s my remember in my experience of it.

Thank you guys for that. Let’s get into this. Now we know why America went into the war, why they went into Afghanistan. Do you want to expound on it a little bit more initially, I don’t think the US understood who was responsible for the attacks. And then that’s why initially, President Bush at the time, President George W. Bush said in his initial address to the nation, we’re going to find out who did this. We’re going to hold them responsible. But when it came out that Al Qaeda was responsible and that they had safe havens in Afghanistan, then they declared that they were going to go into Afghanistan. But the way that he described it, the way that he declared he didn’t declare war. He called it a war on terrorism at the time. I don’t think anyone noticed or anyone cared, argues in I was a senior in high school. I think I said I was a junior earlier, but I was actually a senior in high school, and we just thought we don’t care. Just go in there and get the ones who did it. So he didn’t declare war on the country itself or on the government. He declared war on terrorism. In hindsight, that was such a broad and vague thing to say, because terrorism, particularly Islamic terrorism, can be so nebulous, it changes. It’s very adaptive. It’s not the same. Every single time they got groups popping up, you kill one, two more, pop up. And so he set it up pretty nicely for a multi year engagement. But at the time, the country was unified and in agreement to go in and go after the people who did it. And so that’s something that we probably need to unpack because he didn’t declare war in Afghanistan. We call it the war in Afghanistan. But he called it the war on terrorism, which I think gave him anyone in the leadership leeway to go after terrorism wherever it was thought to exist. But it also meant that it didn’t just have to be Afghanistan. That’s probably why he could tie it and justify going into Iraq as well or whatever country they felt like they needed to go into.

So, David, why do you think the west went into war being someone from Germany, from the German military? Why do you think the West Side to go into war? Not that I know a lot about the American history, the American reason for going there, but from my point of view, it was to find those who did evil to the country America and bring them to judgment. That was my understanding that was all over the news that they were looking for the person, the leader. Obviously, there were many, many people involved in this attack, finding the person was responsible with planning and for for everything behind scenes and bring them before the judge or terminate them. Exactly. Okay. So I think Osama bin Laden was found and killed in 2012, I think 2010. Then we stayed there another ten years. So these are let me bring you in on this. The why? Because if it was like David said, hey, we’re going to find those who are responsible for it, bring them to judgment. Why is it that we only coming out now in 20, 21, 20 years later rather than ten years ago? Yeah. Quick correction. He actually was killed May 2, 2011, actually 2011. So ten years later. So the reason we actually went into Afghanistan, according to George W. Bush and so forth was because the Taliban, which was in control of a good portion of Afghanistan at the time, was they declined to extradite Osama bin Laden and those that were deemed responsible for the attacks. So we went into Afghanistan with the idea that we were going to bring Osama bin Laden and those that were associated with him through Al Qaeda and so forth that we’re actually responsible for the attack. So it wasn’t just the Sama bin Laden that we were after. It was really sort of all of Al Qaeda. And then because the Taliban refused to actually extradite him and assist us, then we sort of disabled the country by even going in. And so we felt like we couldn’t really leave it in that destabilized state. So I think the reason that we stayed there longer was because we were hoping to stabilize the country in some manner. You know, there’s that idea that if you go in and you kill or you take out or you bring to judgment the big, bad war Lord, then somebody is going to take over in his place is going to be this vacuum of power and somebody’s going to take over and maybe they’re going to be worse than you. I think that’s also part of the reason that we stayed was because we were hoping to stabilize the country, and that’s the reason we stayed longer than we tended to. I presume.

Yeah. Let’s flesh that out a little bit, because as we think about the war in Afghanistan, a lot of folks will say maybe if a failure or maybe the US should have left earlier, as I alluded to. So Firstly, do you think this was a failure? And if so, why did America do wrong and not only does America but the west, because allies were in there as well? So flesh that out a little bit, because if we want to bring stability to the country, what should we have done differently is my question as well. I think that we put off more than we could choose. You know? I mean, it sounds like a nice little package to say that we were going to go find Osama bin Laden and the Al Qaeda leaders and take them out. But it became quite a larger task than that. And so one of the things that I think that we did wrong is that we went into it so hastily that we didn’t really fully understand what we were getting ourselves into. Right.

So David is the only former military who have fought in Afghanistan. What’s your thought on that? What do you think the west did wrong or even America did wrong? And it was this a failure? If you look back on it. I knew the question, but it’s so hard for me to find the right words to describe my point of view about those things. I was there 2013, 2014, and it was not just America was there. At some point, many, many more countries joined the task to help fight against Taliban. And if I remember right at my arriving in Cabo, it was 35 nations. I have a picture of 35 flags on the Cabo airport who were there present in thousands and thousands of soldiers. Everyone had Proby different information about why we are actually here now, from a Christian point of view. If, for example, a a big meeting and one person gets safer, we spent thousands and thousands of dollars. This one soul is worth all the cost that we did, that this person be able to hear the gospel and receive crisis the savior. If I can relate this to a war that we as soldiers, as many, many countries join together to fight the big, bad, evil person, and we were able to find the person neutralize and bring a little bit of piece into it, maybe even establish democracy or train those who are willing to be police forces or even military forces in this country to be a policeman. Let’s say who takes care of out the bad people. Then I would say we tried our best to help them. But if people are involved, it’s never good enough. I would say it’s hard. There’s so many viewpoints coming in all the kinds of directions in this moment. True. If my answer is satisfying, you know.

Yeah, I like the direction you took this because as I think about it, there’s this gentleman who said that one of the big problem is that we send soldiers in to fight and we destabilize the country and we bring peace in the fence with the gun and with force. But then we leave and we don’t send missionary. Then all we don’t have missionaries come in alongside that. No, the direction I’m going here is that that sounds good. But to me, it will take generations for folks that get saved has to change and continue to go in a new direction. But not only that the politics are involved here, because if let’s say the West, I decide, hey, we’re going to send in Christian missionaries as well to convert these people. The politics that that will bring as well. It’s like, okay, so you’re not trying to get the bad guy anymore. You actually try to convert these people from a Christian perspective. How should we hand this? Should we actually send missionaries in with the soldiers, or should we say it’s going to be too political? So let’s leave this out of it. Well, I don’t think the two are actually. I mean, in the sense that US military went there to bring justice to this situation. I don’t think that is necessarily mutually tied to sending missionaries there, like, I don’t think that’s the job of the US government and missionaries there, but if that would have opened a door for us to send missionaries there, we certainly should have taken the opportunity to do so. You know, when Hudson Taylor went to China and started the inline China mission, it had nothing to do with the war or anything like that. So I don’t really see the two is being connected in any way whatsoever. The US military went there to do a job, if that would have opened the door for missionaries to go there and bring the gospel there, which I think it did in some cases, and I think there actually has been there is an underground Church in Afghanistan. So I think that did actually open somewhat of a door for that, but I don’t see them as being connected. Exactly.

Yeah. I would agree. Some sediment, dear, let me play Devil’s advocate here and say so if our goal was also to stabilize the country and bring democracy, and I believe that democracy in some respect, is a judo Christian culture, I don’t think I get democracy out of honestly, Islam, and I don’t think I get democracy out of many other cultures that don’t have a Christian Foundation. So if our goal is to bring democracy there as well, because that would probably be the most stable structure, why is it that we wouldn’t want to send missionaries in as well? Well, Canada is also considered a country that has founding principles based on Judeo Christian values as well, but it was actually the Catholic Jesuit that actually helped found the country more than someone that would actually be Christian as such. So I don’t see stabilizing the country and making it a democracy is necessarily being tied to evangelistic missionary work. I see them as being exclusive, actually, it could be related. I mean, David and I were talking earlier and I was sharing with him the Thomas Jefferson was highly unlike, was actually a save man. He was probably a DS to best, and he based many of the founding principles of the United States, actually off of Baptistin principles, which, yes, are biblical. But Jefferson himself was not necessarily a safe man. So I don’t see that being tied distinctly to Christian missionary work, if you will. So I don’t see Christianizing and then also bringing democracy into an area is necessarily being the same thing. Although democracy may be based off of Judeo Christian values, I’m not sure if I’m making sense, but hopefully I am.

Oh yeah, definitely. I just want to add in many ways throughout the years after we went into Afghanistan and subsequently into Iraq as well, we kept pushing this idea of winning hearts and minds, winning hearts and minds. And almost indirectly, one could make the argument that that’s what the government, at least the US government was pushing for. You’re not going to win hearts and minds through military force. So even if they weren’t trying to bring the gospel to these countries, and I’m just linking Iraq and Afghanistan together because they’ve both been used as excuses to justify being there. You know, if the President is talking about winning hearts and minds, it’s clear that he was trying to do something more than just go in there brute force and take out the enemy. He really wanted to try and change it from the inside out by changing people. But you’re dealing with people that have millennia in terms of history of not just the Islamic religion, but before Islam came and established ironclad rule in these areas, people were all sorts of faith, Buddhist and all these different things, a bunch of seeks in there as well. You’re not going to go in there with brute force and change these people’s minds. They’ll acquiesce because you’ve got a gun, but they’re not going to change who they fundamentally are. And it was John Adams who declared that the Constitution of the United States was only made for a moral and religious people. It’s wholly inadequate to the government of any other. And I think, of course, many people would try to paint Islam as a peaceful religion, but even a cursory understanding of Islam will show you that it’s not. Even if you were to say of Islam or the hardcore Islamist, convert or die types and of Islam is not that other is likely to be okay with what the Islamists are doing. And so we’re kind of fooled into thinking that somehow, particularly in this country, we’re full to to thinking that somehow Islam is a peaceful religion. The problem was, what they realized is that the Islamist will kill you for the faith, but everyone else outside of the ring of the Islamist will be like, well, you know, you had a coming, they won’t condemn it. Very few of them will actually condemn it, which means the religion as a whole is an immoral one. It’s not one which suitable for democracy because very much similar to communism, the Islamist way of doing things is that that government is their God. They enforce and they install everything and you have to submit to them. It’s very similar to communism in that way where the government is God roughly same idea, although I know those two are not the same, but they’re similar in that particular way. I agree with DW in terms of biting off more than we can chew because we go in there wanting to change hearts and minds and they don’t even have the underpinning for it. It was a Fool’s errand to me.

It seems like the purpose America went in and the purpose. The Taliban and Al Qaeda thinks the deer are different. I think the US maybe went in to bring justice because of what happened 911 and to seek those that have caused this evil and bring them to justice. Also, I was listening to a CNN interview with one of the Taliban, and they were basically Saint, in a nutshell, that this war is not a physical war to them, it’s basically a spiritual war, and they’re going to fight to the end for the long haul. This is what he said. Until basically the whole world becomes Islam. So to us, we are going there, we’re going to bring them to justice, maybe stabilize a country. But to them, it’s like, hey, we’re doing this not because we want Western values or we they’re trying to put Western values upon us to them. We are trying to change their religion. We’re trying to change the way of life, their culture. Even recently, I was looking on one of these websites, one of these news websites, and they were saying that the Taliban gave a warning to America not to interfere with us, our culture when it comes to the treatment of women. And of course, this can open another kind of worm in terms of the way women at cheat in the west to the way women are treated there. But again, it highlights to me that they are looking at it not necessarily from a physical point of view, but also a cultural and more important to them, a spiritual point of view. Yeah.

And was talking. I started thinking of this analogy going in and trying to establish democracy without the as she called it the underpinnings, the Judeo Christian values and so forth, an established with the people themselves. It’s sort of like sending someone to an AA meeting. The AA meetings in the States are loosely based off of biblical principles, but they’re doing it without actually seeing the person converted to biblical Christianity. They’re trying to have the person adopt some semblance of moral biblical values without actually being converted to a Christian without actually coming to no price as their savior. It actually doesn’t work. The person might stop drinking, and they might stop doing that for the rest of their lives. But it actually doesn’t change anything fundamentally about them. And so if we would have tried to go over there and Institute democracy in Afghanistan, and in some measure, I think we sort of did that. But as soon as then we left, we were the stabilizing force, if you will. As soon as we left. Since Maria left, American troops specifically left the country, destabilizing went back to Taliban control. I don’t know if I’m sort of meshing with some of the thoughts that have been already given, but yeah, I think that’s why we didn’t succeed there. And I don’t think we could have because we didn’t fundamentally change the people. And like MCT was saying, they were resisting was the fundamental change, and they couldn’t actually adopt democracy without that fundamental change, honestly. And they weren’t planning on doing that to begin with. It set me that we were attacking the fruits rather than the root. Sure. Yep. Answers. And Genesis has this illustration where they have these two castles on the foundation of the one Castle is Biblical Christianity. And on the foundation of the other Castle, it says Atheism, but we could replace it with anything else, really. And then on the top of these castles in the pair pits the towers of these castles, they’ve got these balloons with different topics on the Christian Castle. It’s got, you know, creationism, inspiration, etc. And then in the balloons on the atheist side, it’s got evolution, Marxism, maybe or something like that. And each of these two castles are firing cannons at each other. And the Christian Castle is firing at the balloons on the atheist Castle. And the atheist Castle is firing at the very foundation of the Christian Castle. So the war that we’re fighting is fundamentally different. We’re attacking the topics and they’re attacking the foundation. We’re attacking the Islamist terrorists that attacks the United States and so forth, and they’re fighting a war to take over the world.

Yeah. So what should we have done differently then? I think all of us he agreed that this was a failure. And in my mind, I’m wondering, is there a way that we could have succeeded in my mind? Not like I don’t even think so. But let me try it out to you guys. What should we have done differently? Because this is so complicated and the roots and the web of this run so deep entangle so much. What should we have done differently? Maybe would have give us some sort of success. Or have we seen success already? I mean, we killed Osama bin Laden. So that was our goal. We succeeded in that we didn’t fundamentally change the country. We may be in some way, left it off worse than we went in and found it. But I think there should be a distinction made between the American soldiers that went and maybe their goals than the leadership of the United States. Oh, yeah. Great point. The American soldiers went in to help people, and they did that. They succeeded in doing that, maybe not permanently. But they went in to try and help people and people, at least for 20 years, have been helped. So, you know, there’s been a whole generation that’s grown up in Afghanistan that has seen the benevolent hand of the US military, if you will, because these individual soldiers went in to be a health to them. I mean, you can see pictures as the American troops are withdrawing and some of the American troops were left in there. They’re pouring water into the mouths of these Afghanis and still trying to help them. So when we say that it was a failure, I don’t want to with this broad brush, just sort of paint the American military with this negative stroke, the soldiers that went there, the Marines and so forth, they went there. They went there, like David said, they went there to help. No. From a leadership standpoint. Was it a failure? Absolutely. From an individual military standpoint, there were some Afghanis that actually ended up being able to leave the country and come to the United States and have now taken up residence in the United States and other countries and are leading a better fruitful life because we went there. So there were some things that we did that were pieces of success, if you will. Did we totally succeed in whatever? Obviously. No. Unfortunately. But there were successes along the way. Oh, definitely.

There was a thought coming up in my mind. If someone comes to me and let’s say, destroys my home, the home of my family, the home of my friends and the same person, the American later on helps me to build it up. I feel a little bit dumb from Afghani point of view, because why did you bump my house in the first place when you want to help me build it up again? Is maybe a bad reputation in some Afghan hats in mind that the Americans destroying everything and then try to build up our home according to their image. What they believe is right. Because I remember we were talking with certain people and they were asking where we are from because I didn’t recognize the German flag on my shoulder. Said, I’m from Germany. Where is that? Is that someone in America said, no, I’m not from America at all. Then they liked me. They showed sympathy towards me because I’m not American. Certain people, if you say to your American, there’s automatically, like, almost like a hate kind of relationship towards you. And yeah, in that way, I would say we failed because we came in, we destroyed a lot and we didn’t give them the information. You know, we did this for a purpose because we heard that, let’s say in this house complex or whatever, there were some bad people trying to kill others, maybe even you. And if we don’t give them the information that we did this for your own good, others might come in and give them the wrong kind of information. All the American he wants to destroy us, come on our side and then we fight them back. It is so important that the right information is exchange.

Yeah. And I think your perspective has not been an American is very important because I have a similar perspective, because when I look at it, as I said, I never realized how much of enemy America has and how much they love at the same time until I move here, because if you think about it, the west, but America in particular has a lot of enemies. They are hated by a lot and the love by a lot and the ones that love them. Love them and the one that really hate them really hate them. And I think that’s, as you said in Afghanistan when you were deer, you see the same thing. So definitely. But going back to what we said because I think that was great because one guy much smarter than me said that basically powerful than that. War is actual extension of politics. And I do believe that the many find military folks that we sent in went in there to do good, and I think they did do good. And I think many of them stuck feed, but politically, definitely this was a big failure politically, and it’s not just Bush, no Trump and Biden. This was under Obama as well. All these President, I think, had a hand to play that caused this failure. Not only that, but we also have to look at Congress as well because they’re partly in this too, because from what I remember in 2001, there were only one member of Congress that didn’t vote to go into Afghanistan, and this became more than just a wall to find justice. But it became very political eating if you separate it based upon what defined Marines and soldiers and sailors and who serves were indeed did. And compared to that to the policy, I’ll definitely agree that the military did a fine job and probably most likely succeed more than fail. But I think the politicians failed way more than they succeed.

You listening to the Removing various podcast. We sit down with DW and our special guest, David, and we are talking about Afghanistan a spiritual perspective. We’ll be right back.

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We have touched on some of the exposure aspect of this dive deep into well, I don’t know if but deep for me into some of the reason why we may have failed. We may have succeed, but as a person was born and raised in the Caribbean, I remember growing up and we would say often that America believes that they’re the police of the world. They feel like they should go in and do this and do that. I’m going to show this to you, David, because since you were born with in America as well, I one day was that ever a sentiment in Germany that you feel like us was activated a big bad police of the world. And if so to everybody, should the US be the police of the world. Yes, I heard the term a lot that America is feeling that they have to go wherever is a problem to try to and force peace. Many times there was something happening for east. There’s something happening in Desco anywhere in the world. And at some point Americans were involved in that always gave, but that we had the right kind of information. There’s always some kind of missing on the way. And I think we always were asking the question, Why is America doing this? Why is always American? Well, because usually when America work, something bad happens kind of taste that had towards us in Germany, at least.

So let me bring you in W as a born and raised and red blood in American. What do you think about this? Well, I was thinking about this podcast. I was talking with my son a little bit, and one of the things I said was, well, you know, one of our neighbors was being attacked by some person. I wouldn’t I go outside and try to stop that. And he said, sure, but if our neighbor is doing something voluntarily, that’s bad or wrong, is that your right to go over and stop that? I thought that’s an interesting perspective. And so should the US, the world’s police? No, because that’s not our job. But at the same time, if one of our neighboring countries, something is being done wrong to them, should we try to go help? Should we intercede? I think it depends on the circumstances, but maybe probably it’s kind of a case by case basis. Honestly, in this particular scenario in Afghanistan, I think the reason that George W. Bush had us go there to take out of some of bin Laden and hopefully Al Qaeda. I mean, somebody attacked us. If we didn’t do anything in response to that, then we would probably in some measure, open ourselves up to additional attack. But if we responded with appropriate force, hopefully we would deter or lessen the likelihood. But does America think that we’re the world’s police? I think in some manner we do. And I don’t think that we should think that.

I agree, although I struggle with this to be honest, because I’m thinking of, for example, a country like North Korea where the people are living under terrible conditions under this tyrannical leader. And he’s got a foot on everyone’s neck. And he is God in that country. And I’ve listened to many stories of people who have escaped. People have defected. And I just can’t imagine living like that and something and me Burns like, oh, you have to do something. So I totally understand both sides. But I really don’t think that America should or is even capable of being the world’s police. We’ve already done that many times, spreading ourselves way too thin, unable to accomplish what we set out to do and hurting ourselves in the process. So yeah, I would say that we shouldn’t be the police of the world. We simply can’t be. But I think with Afghanistan, it’s my personal opinion. This may not be true. It was more than just going in there and getting a hold of bin Laden. And, you know, trying to right the wrong of 911. Afghanistan is actually very strategically placed nation. It shares borders with China. It shares borders with all of these different countries where it would benefit us to have a foot of some sort or hold of some sort of Afghanistan, so that if something goes Awry, we can launch from Afghanistan. So I don’t know what the leaders were thinking. I don’t know what Congress was thinking. I don’t know what the military industrial complex was thinking, but I suspect that because Afghanistan shares a border with China, there was very strong interest in getting a foothold in there so that we could, I don’t know, perhaps one up or at least be prepared to one up China, because we haven’t always been on friendly terms with China and other countries. But that’s pure speculation. I don’t know for sure. So that also complicates things, because it’s not just about justice at that point. Now we’re talking about political chess worldwide, chess to see who can be the top dog in the world. So we extension of politics, right. But I think about that.

Let’s go a little bit deeper, because what’s going through my mind is this and I could be wrong on this. But you guys can let me know. It seems that America doesn’t have a problem, and I’m going to use this word beating up on countries that are much smaller that are much weaker than them because the argument can be made that China is doing really bad things right now. Russia is doing really bad things right now. North career is doing really bad things to their people. But the west is not going into these countries because these countries can meet America force with equal force. And we’re not going in there. But we’re going to Afghanistan because we know that these people that were in flip flops and running around with a 45 or 47 that they can’t match our power. So we rebuilt the police to Afghanistan, but would be be the police to Russia will be be the police to China or be the police to North Korea. Is it because they have enough military power to match us? Maybe not not career or is it truly that we have moral values that we want to push? We am I going wrong on my talk here? Well, I think the idea of going in and changing a country and turning it into a democracy or at least a peaceful country, that kind of thing is actually one of the ideas in which and I could be wrong here. But it’s my understanding that that’s one of the ideas in which the UN was sort of founded on was that we need to make the world a better place. And the way to do that is to spread that wouldn’t say that they would save democracy necessarily. But maybe more of a socialistic perspective. But through socio economic change will make the world a better place. So this part of the reason or part of the thinking, at least. But why we haven’t gone into China and Russia and so forth? Absolutely. You’re hitting on the right idea that those countries can meet our force with equal or greater force and sometimes maybe even combined forces and create a larger problem for us. And so that’s maybe why we don’t go in and police those nations. I don’t know that we would necessarily go into Afghanistan because they’re weaker. I don’t know that we would go into that country because of that per se. But we probably would evaluate and say, are we able to effectively do what we’re hoping to do by going in there? And I think that was our hope. But again, I think we’ve been off more than we can choose. So maybe I’ve gotten off in a little bit of rabbit trail here. But I think the US would like to see the rest of the world become more Democratic and more friendly and so forth to their benefit. Possibly.

But you, David, I’m curious of your thoughts. I might quote a movie and nuts, actually a good one. But with great power comes great responsibility. I know for sure that America is capable of doing great things. I’ve seen it and military wise, I think, is one of the top 3 may be the best of the world when it comes to using the right power at the right time. I think it is important to use it for the good things. And if America is capable of not maybe policing but helping other countries to establish keys, I’m all for it. When would it be good for them to go in and not go into, I think. And maybe that takes us off the topic of Afghanistan. But should I of that country before the US coming in? I mean, how would the US if they were going to do or use that power? You know, with great power comes great responsibility. If they were going to use that power responsibly, how would they know when to go in and exercise that power? And so I guess in some ways it would almost be easier to say, let’s just do or not do. But I think discerning when is the right time to go in is hard. And maybe that was part of the problem in Afghan, I agree,

would have been a financial aspect to this as well, because, you know, maybe oil, maybe precious metal in terms of would that play a role in death as well? I’ve never heard those particular thoughts as motives here. I mean, I have heard some conspiratorial kind of things to suggest that certain things behind the attacks on the towers and so forth may have been prompted or staged or something to that effect, but I find those theories to be somewhat hard to palette. Maybe that’s because even though I know that people are not inherently good, I find it difficult to believe that Americans would stage something so devastating against their own country in order to create a circumstance that would benefit them. And even if that were true, I just kind of hope it’s not true. Yeah. I’m not saying that the plane flew in because of financial is I’m saying maybe the US went in also because of financial issues. I mean, did we look at it and look at the other gains that we get by going in there? Sort of like what Jay was saying as far as the borders and so forth and the access to give us. Sure. Maybe I’ve never really read anything that would suggest to me that that was the case. I don’t think that the people that are in military power in the United States or political power in the United States, they’re not dummies.

Yep. Let me spend this question a little bit because I think we could also ask the question this way. America, or at least Christians in America are very proud of the fact that the country has Judeo Christian underpinnings was founded on biblical principles and for many, many years, maybe even a century or so, really stuck to those principles. And only in recent years have we begun to shy away from those and opt for other Godless options. So earlier we were talking about Bush and his hearts and minds idea going into these countries, trying to change it from the bottom up, we were talking about missionaries going in. Let me see if I could pull all that together and ask the question, is this a question of Theon? My is this a question of two spiritual positions? Vying for position like the Judeo Christian ethic, trying to go into an Islamic or Islamist setting and trying to establish the rule of God or Jesus Christ’s rule there because we talked before about how the Taliban and many Muslims along with them, not just them believe that they are fighting a spiritual war. They’re in it for the long haul. They are in it to win it until the whole world becomes Islamic. And we as Christians, we want to see the whole world, one for Christ, of course, not through military means. But we also want to see the world one for Christ. Everything that we’re seeing in the news, everything that we’re discussing now is this just the facade and what we’re really talking about are huge spiritual battles in the background. Is this a question of the Otomy? I would say maybe in the idea again that those, like the UN and so forth. The idea was that through political change and social change and so forth, the world can be made a better place. I think maybe from that perspective, but is it truly a government with its head as Christ, that’s against the Islamist that would have, Alas their head taking over the world? I don’t think so. Honestly. I mean, some might have that view, but from the standpoint that there’s this idea that we could make everybody like a Western civilization and therefore make the world a better place. I do think that there is that idea. I think it’s very prevalent actually in the US and in some European ideas as well. I wouldn’t see the US is actually being a Christian nation that’s going to take over the world and make the whole world a Christian world. I don’t see that. Y

ou know, I will agree DW and maybe as well. I’m actually saying maybe, but leaning yes, in some the reason why I say maybe is because I believe Islam is false. So whatever they believe going to happen end times. And the second comment of the mom or the seven, what they call it is it mom. Yeah. The seven moment, whatever they believe about that,

it’s the 12th mom in the Islamic belief system. The team is going to return. I’m going to use a big word here in eschatology. The Koran and the Bible both have eschatology in word eschatology literally means the study of the end times or the beliefs about the end times. And so both the Koran and the Bible both have eschatology in them. And the simplest way to explain the eschatology between the similarities and differences between the two is this the good guys in the Bible are the bad guys in the Quran and the bad guys in the Quran are the good guys in the Bible. So the mom, according to the Quran, the twelve mom is going to be a religious leader. They’re going to set up a caliphate, which Islamic state, and under the rule of the mom, that twelve mom is going to return with Jesus Christ, according to Islam. And the Jesus of the Quran is going to point to the twelve team and say, he’s actually the guy, the Mahdi. And so in the Bible, this would be the false Prophet and the beast. And so the one that’s claiming to be Jesus Christ is going to be the beast, he’s going to be the one that’s the political arm and then the false Prophet. The twelve mom in this case is going to be the religious leaders. The eschatology and both is actually very similar, but sort of like a mirror image of each other. Right. And as I said earlier, that in mind, this is a spiritual wall. And I think to some degree it is a spiritual war. And it is it absolutely is to some extent they’re looking at any time. They say, hey, we need to do this for the twelve year mom to usher in the twelve month. But as Christians, we know the true and then and the true way this will going to come to an end on Christ returns. Is it a question of eonomy? Again? I was say, maybe, but we have read the end of the book. We know who won.

Yeah, but does that absolve us as Christians that have the ability to do something to do something? Does that absolve us of the responsibility to do something? Because we’re talking about people who want to bring about the Islamization? I just created a new word, the Islamization of the entire world. And we’ve seen what happens to countries when they come in and they enforce what do they call it? Sharia law, right? Completely antithetical to everything that we believe as Christians, as Americans, as whatever you want to say, it’s just completely antithetical and it brings about death. And so this is why this is a hard question for me, because what do we just kind of stand here and take it? I’m not sure I would agree that we would just kind of stand here and not fight back and not engage, if that makes any sense, but then we’re not the police of the world. But if we allow Islam to just spread and in fact just grow like cancer and just spread, will it get to a point where they’re able to subdue or to subvert the US because they’re just simply greater in terms of military strength in terms of the land that they’ve taken over their resources that they’ve taken over? I’m not sure that we should just stand back and allow that to happen.

The next question here is, are we morally obligated as Christians to counter Islam with the gospel? And if so, do we do that with war? I don’t know. That’s a tough question for me. I don’t think we should do it with war, because that’s not the example that the Lord Jesus Christ is set. We’re not revolutionaries as individual Christians. But if we like to say that we’re a Christian nation, or at least we were a Christian nation, do we have that obligation? I would harken back and say sort of what touched on earlier in that Thomas Jefferson, one of the primary writers of our founding documents, was not himself a Christian. I would argue that we’ve never actually been a Christian nation. We’ve been a nation that has had maybe biblical values. So in that sense, Christianized or Christian like in some sense. But we’ve never actually been a Christian nation as such. And I would hearken to the Baptistin principle of separation of Church and state and say that should Christians fight Islam with war? And the answer is no, because Jesus said to his disciples when he was headed to Jerusalem and the Samaritan Solar wasn’t going to stay in that Samaritan village. James and John said, Should we call down fire from heaven like Elijah did and destroy them? I’m badly paraphrasing and the Lord Jesus Christ said, you know not what spirit you’re of I came to save men’s lives, not destroy them. And so should Christians take it upon themselves to respond with war or violence? Absolutely not. The answer is no unequivocally, no. But the nation of America is not a Christian nation. Never has been. It might be Christian like or have Christian values in some sense. But the nation as a whole, I think, does have to respond to threats to it. Like I was saying before, if we didn’t respond and do something about the fact that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda attacked United States, then we would just open ourselves up to further attack. If another country, North Korea or China or something actually decides to try and attack us. If we don’t do anything, they’re just going to continue to do that. And those things are going to escalate and so forth. So as a nation, yes, America has to respond and defend itself. But that’s not a Christian defense. And should we fight Islam with the gospel? On the answer is yes, but the gospel is a war. The gospel is actually good news, peace, peace with God, peace from God. And so I wouldn’t even really say that we should be fighting Islam with the gospel. As such, we should be taking the gospel to the world and the Lord can change people. I guess the best analogy I could draw here is a few years ago, I was talking with his husband and wife, Jerry and John, and they were asking me if I would come with them and hand out pro life literature at train stations. And after talking with them for an extended period of time, they were both Catholic. And after talking with them for some extended period of time, I said, And Jerry, I think her name was Geraldine. That was the wife. I said to her as a Jerry, I’d be more tempted to take tracks and try to witness the people. Then I would be to take pro life literature and try to hand that out to people. And she looked at me kind of quizzically and she asked me why. And I said, Well, because if I’m handing out for life literature, I’m attacking this topic. Whereas if we could see the whole country converted, let’s say, to Christianity to actual biblical Christianity, that would solve the pro life issues. And that’s the difference between two biblical Christianity and conservatism. Yes. So I mean, should we fight Islam with the gospel? That’s kind of weird terminology. I would say we should take the gospel to those people and then in seeing them come to Christ, that will solve the Islamic problem, if you will.

And there’s also we should be an example, if you see, for example, those Talibans who stands for Islam, how violent they are, how they, like, kill people wherever they go and they make no difference between men, women, old, young. They do what they think is writing with you on the other hand, have this Christian who want to talk in love with patience and shows true love words, another person that, hey, I don’t want you to go to hell. Why? Because I love you. It makes a huge difference, I believe. Oh, yeah. I’ve seen that. I’ve seen that.

Oh, yeah. As David was saying that I thought of Harlem Pop of and being tortured for his faith. Or maybe it was worm brand. But anyway, I think it was hard on pop up as he was in prison. I think for 14 years being tortured and so forth. The soldier that tortured him, the man that tortured him for all those years eventually ended up coming to Christ. And he said something to the effect that the reason that he ended up coming to Christ was because the more he tortured Harlem Pop of the greater Harlem pop. I’ve loved it. And so, like David was saying, we could be an example to these people. What true biblical Christianity is, which isn’t attacking them a war so much as it is bringing to them and being an example to them of Christ likeness. I mean, I’m not talking about Lordship Salvation here. Our life should reflect the Savior that we supposedly claim to know and worship and love and adore. And he who saved us. Yeah. And you guys were talking about that. I was thinking that, you know, the unique thing about Christianity, though, is that you cannot force true biblical Christianity on anybody. He has to be a willing reception of the heart. If that did not happen, you’re not converted. Your sins are not forgiven. But in many other religions, including Islam, I think that you can force this upon them, or at least you can force the lifestyle upon them. I guess you could argue that you could force Christian principles or so upon people. But that’s not what as Christians we’re trying to get. We’re not trying to get people to conform. We try to get them to transform by the renewal of their mind turned to Christ. We are trying to get a turn in by force. By might. We can get people to conform. But the Bible teaches that we want a transformation. We cannot do this by four. Even if we want to see Afghanistan and the whole world evangelize, we have to do it to the love of Christ by spreading the gospel and not by force, because, quite honest, doesn’t work by false, as the Bible teaches us.

So let’s wrap it on up with this. Is there any hope for the Afghan people? And if so, what is that hope? The gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think praying for those Christians who are stood in Afghanistan that they able to preach Jesus Christ boldly before the people, even a distant secret or not, or on the street, whatever is possible. And what we can do here is praying for them. It’s our weapon. And you’re saying that we should be praying that they would have an opportunity to preach the gospel either in these underground Church services or even in the streets as the Lord would provide them.

So what is that gospel that they would be preaching? That would be the hope of the Afghan? Absolutely. So that will be an undeniable factors. We will all die one day. But the question everyone has to ask themselves is, where will you go after your dad? Is it having more help? And the good news is Jesus Christ has made a way to heaven for us. And this is how you and me, we all seen us in the eyes of God. We are not perfect, not Holy. And only perfection can have entrance into a perfect heaven with a perfect God. Romans 310 ones. As it is written, there is none righteous. No, not one. Comedic sin means you are a sinner. And like a prisoner here on Earth has to go to jail. A sinner will stand before God after his death to receive his penalty. The second death, Hebrews 927 says, and as it disappointed answer, man wants to die. But after this the judgment, maybe whoever’s listening right now, you think. But I’m not that bad. I haven’t done as bad as soon so. But the Bible says in Revelation 21 eight, the fearful and unbelieving, and they’re abominable and murderers and hormones and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the Lake, which on fire and brimstone, which is the second at this place. It’s something you don’t want to ever, ever experience or go to. So how can I change it? You might ask. We have to admit that we are in us and we deserve punishment for wrongdoing for our sins. Okay, that sounds bad. I know. But here comes the goodness. Romans five eight. But God commanded His love toward us in debt while we were yet sinners Christ time for us. God not only said that he loves us, but he showed his love, sending his son Jesus on the Earth to die for her. Since Jesus is perfect and Sines and the perfect payment in the eyes of God forward. Since he took my place, he took your place and paid it off. So you and me don’t have to go to help with this ultimate sacrifice at the Cross of Calorie, his burial in the tomb in his victorious resurrection. After three days he paid for the sin of all mankind, mine and yours. Each one life in heaven is a free gift for you, which that cause cheeses everything. And this now is the key moment once you know and accept it that you’re a sinner, that you deserve hell and that Jesus paid it. So you don’t have to go to that. Then you have to accept a skip to Salvation. John 112 fast, but as many as received him to them gave him power to become the sons of God. Even to them. The belief on his name. Accepting his gift. Opportune life is made of the heart. You have to pray God, forgive me of my sins and I accept Jesus Christ payment for my sense and for my only Salvation that he’s the only Salvation I can have.

David, thank you so much for joining us on the Removing Barriers Podcast.

Thank you for having me. Thanks. I haven’t been here. Thank you for listening to get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to Removing barriers. Net this has been the Removing Barriers Podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.