Episode 225

Evangelist David Sommerdorf sits down with the Removing Barriers podcast to discuss his newest book Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness. If there was ever a time where Christians were confused about the differentiation between these things, it could certainly be today. Whether we are holding on to a standard as proof of justification or whether we are dismissing all standards as legalism to live with no Christian distinction, it all stems from a poor understanding of our position in Christ and how we are to live in light of the gospel. Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness is a timely resource to help us understand what legalism is, our liberty in Christ, and how we can live lives pleasing to the Lord. David Sommerdorf is a husband to his wife of over 40 years Debra, father of six adult children, and grandfather to 16 grandchildren (and counting). He was an active duty Marine when the Lord saved him in 1980, and he has been serving the Lord faithfully as an evangelist for over 20 years. You won’t want to miss the wisdom and exhortation he has for Christians regarding this topic, and be sure to listen for how you can order your own copy of his book.

[David Sommerdorf]But I find legalism is a very misapplied term today. And I think that it’s kind of a quick way that we can just throw away standard of living that somebody has that they are just trying to please the Lord, be different than the world, and represent Jesus Christ well.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers Podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers, so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 225 of the Removing Barriers Podcast. And in this episode, we will be sitting down with evangelist David Sommerdorf to discuss his new book, Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things Removing Barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net slash donate. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Brother Dave, it is indeed a pleasure. Welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast.

[David Sommerdorf]

Good to be back. Appreciate what you two do.

[MCG]

Yeah, great. Glad you were able to place us in your busy schedule.

[David Sommerdorf]

Always room for you guys.

[MCG]

Amen. Don’t say that because we might invite you some more, brother.

[David Sommerdorf]

No problem.

[MCG]

All right, brother. So you’re an author. Tell us about the book, Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness, and what was the motivation behind all of it?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yes, I’m an author, first time author. I over the years have found that I have an ability to write, but I hated doing it. It’s just a lot of work if you want to do it right. But I finally just decided I need to write a book on this because as I was traveling around, and this was becoming very, very common, I would hear the word legalism pop up in conversation. Sometimes it would be in the context of somebody talking to me, pointing out something, they say, that person’s just a legalist. or that’s legalism. Or sometimes I heard it said to me, well, you’re just being a legalist. So this is a word that I began to hear, and I recognized immediately that the label legalist or legalism was not intended to be a compliment. I figured out quite quickly this is actually kind of a snarky put down. And frankly, I didn’t know what it was. And so I began to ask people, well, what is a legalist? I mean, what does it mean to be legalistic or legalism? Nobody really knew. It was just this word that was slapped on something or somebody that they didn’t like, another Christian who maybe had a standard of separation or an attitude, whatever. And so I thought, I need to look into this. And so I began to research it, begin to go ahead and get thoughts together. It eventually became a Sunday school lesson I would teach to adults, sometimes combined with teenagers. And the result was this book, Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness.

[MCG]

Yeah, legalism almost sound like the term racism today. Everybody use it, but no one really have a clear definition of what it is.

[David Sommerdorf]

Yes.

[Jay]

Why did you choose that title? Legalism, liberty, and lawlessness. Were you going for the alliteration or is there a link between those three things?

[David Sommerdorf]

There’s a link between all three, but I love alliteration too. It’s both. I love both of them because I find that sometimes it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. And then people remember it better. So it is alliteration, but all three are inexorably linked. There’s no doubt about it.

[MCG]

So you dedicated the book to Dr. Gary Priss. And I’ve heard you spoke of him often. And of course, he’s a very important male figure in your life, at least was a very important male figure in your life. How important is this for a young man to have a mentor in his life like you did with brother Chris?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, I think it’s absolutely essential. And first, the best mentor would be a dad, but also in addition to dad, godly men that would live out what they believe and be a great role model. Gary Prisk was that. Gary Prisk was a very soft-spoken, gentle person, but incredibly resolved to serve the Lord. He was very separated. He was very godly, a man of prayer. He loved the Lord and he loved people. And he had a servant’s heart. He was really a servant leader. Men out there that knew him. He passed away at a young age, but those that had known him for years, as I bump into him, would all say pretty much the same thing. They would say, you didn’t have to believe everything that Gary Prisk believed, but he’d never treat you any differently than somebody who believed everything the way he saw it. He was a gracious man. He was a servant leader. And for a young man like me that was first born, I was absolutely an alpha male, raised in a strict German home, And then by way of the Marine Corps got saved, I could have easily been an angry fundamentalist. That’s a fair description. And Gary Prisk was that individual that totally, I saw a man with great resolve that was sweet. And I began to realize that was true biblical Christianity.

[MCG]

Well, just for the listener’s sake, you said you were first born. As far as I know, you have a twin brother. Would Doug have anything to say about this?

[David Sommerdorf]

Doug is absolutely the polar opposite of me. Everything I am, he’s not, and everything he is, I’m not. And so we were only 1/2 an hour apart, but for personalities who were just light years apart. And yet, I think as I look back over the years, I even look at my twin brother Doug now, and he’s serving the Lord. I look at us, and I wish I had about 25% of him, and he probably would need about 25% of me. And we would be right where you needed to be. But yeah, Doug and I, we were close, and we grew up together as twins, first surviving twins in probably 100 years in our family. So we were special, and it’s great to see him saved and serving the Lord as well.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Jay]

Tell me, Brother Dave, I’ll read this summary of Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness as it is on the back of the book. It says, we have probably all heard the following statement leveled at us, or possibly even leveled at others by us. That’s just being legalistic, or maybe you’re a legalist. These phrases have become very common in American Christianity today, and though frequently used, they are often very misunderstood. Legalism, liberty, and lawlessness addresses the ongoing battle in our churches and homes as the world continually attempts to infiltrate these two divinely ordained institutions. Through personal illustrations, life experiences, and biblical admonitions, Brother Sommerdorf challenges the reader to consider where they stand in relation to the law and grace, as well as standards of separation and the liberty they enjoy in Jesus Christ. There is a biblical balance, and his hope is that the reader would be assisted through the pages of this book in finding that balance and service to the Savior. And then he lists Galatians 5.13 as the verse there. Where can folks go to buy a copy of Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness?

[David Sommerdorf]

They can either go to my e-mail, davidsommerdorf at yahoo.com, S-O-M-M-E-R-D-O-R-F as in Foxtrot. They could go to our ministry website, sommerdorf.com, again, Sommerdorf with an O and a double M, or they can go to my phone number, give me a call or text me at 512-626-0626. 0445 and they are available $10, you know, it’s reasonable plus shipping. If you order 10 or more, I think I bring them down to $8, I think. I don’t remember, but I’ve got that written down somewhere. It’s been well received though. I think we’re on our sixth or seventh run. We do about 125 at a time. It’s only been out about nine months. And there’s been a really very large response. And we’re really just word of mouth advertising. And I’ve just ordered up, I think, my 7th set of 125. And there’s been a great response, especially amongst young believers, pastors wanting their new converts to get a good biblical start and find that balance that we all need.

[MCG]

All right. Why don’t we start by defining our terms? So let’s start with legalism, then we go into liberty, then we go into lawlessness. How would you define those?

[David Sommerdorf]

Legalism. I went ahead and looked that up, and it’s very interesting. The word legalism is actually a newly minted word because when I went to the 1828 dictionary, I couldn’t find the word in there. No Webster’s 1828 had legal, legality, and legalized, but not the word legalism or legalistic. So I did realize this is a freshly minted word in the last decade or two that has come forth. So I went ahead to the Oxford 2012 dictionary, and I looked that definition up, and here’s what Oxford said. He said this, Legalism was excessive adherence to law or formula. It was dependence upon moral law rather than a personal religious faith. Oxford noted that if you stress obedience apart from faith, you produce legalism. And then I checked Thomas R. Schreiner, he’s since passed away, but he said it this, A legalist believes that that their good works and obedience to God affects their salvation. They attempt to secure righteousness in God’s sight by good works. So there is the definition of legalism. No one could ever give it to me. I had to research it myself. But in its basic theological form, legalism is trusting in works for salvation or trusting in works to keep or improve your salvation. And the Bible doesn’t teach that.

[MCG]

Right, How about liberty?

[David Sommerdorf]

Liberty is actually a pretty simple definition. Liberty is freedom from restraint. There are no restrictions. In other words, there’s no law against it. has the idea that you’ve been set free.

[MCG]

Okay, and lawlessness.

[David Sommerdorf]

Lawlessness would have the idea of a state of disorder due to a disregard of the law. that would be the definition of lawlessness.

[Jay]

When I’m thinking of the law, I’m thinking of these things. Some of the synonyms I think of in my head are standards and separation. Maybe sometimes even legalism can come up in that stream of thought. How do we differentiate between those 3, between standards, separation, and legalism?

[David Sommerdorf]

I think it’s the motivation that goes behind it. I think many times what happens today as I’ve researched this, talked to people and so forth, is there’s misapplications. Legalism is misapplied many times. And let me give the example. I think the first misapplication is that separation is legalism. In other words, you separate from the world, you separate from ungodliness, you know, You separate from carnality. Maybe there’s movies you refuse to watch. Maybe there’s a certain way you want to dress, whatever. Separation oftentimes is viewed as legalism. Now, you have to recognize that if a person has some standards of separation and they think that makes them more righteous in the sight of God, then they’re being legalistic. But if they’re simply wanting to be unequally yoked, they don’t want to be unequally yoked with an unbeliever. They want to come out from the world and touch not the unclean thing. And they want to please the Lord and they believe that would please their Father. That is not legalism. That’s actually separation. So I think separation today gets labeled legalism, but that’s a very misapplied term because God does want us to come out and be separate. That’s actually a command God gives, and there’s a lot of other verses that go with that. He wants us to be different than the world. He doesn’t want us to be like the world. I think the other misapplication is obedience to God is legalism. People who are saved, they read a verse and the verse speaks to their heart and they say, what? I want to obey God in that area. whatever that area is, they see their personal walk with the Lord. I believe dad would want me to do that, be that or think that way or talk that way or act that way. And then because somebody else doesn’t, they find it, I think, sometimes convenient to just say, oh, you’re just being legalistic when really they’re just trying to be obedient to God in what they read in the Word of God. That’s A misapplication. And #3, I think the third one is holy living many times is considered to be legalistic. And yet God said very clearly, First Peter in chapter 1, Be ye holy, for I am holy. And everything about this new family we enter, it literally is saturated in the aroma of holiness. I mean, we read the Holy Scriptures, Not the wicked scriptures. We are filled with a holy spirit, not a filthy spirit. We belong to a holy father. We’re going to a holy heaven. I mean, everything is, it speaks of holiness. And why wouldn’t I as a child of a holy father want to be like him and be holy? In my thoughts, my words, my deeds, and so forth. And so I think that’s a misapplication. Somebody just wants to be holy. And then I think there’s a fourth one. This is probably the biggest one. Non-conformity to the world. It’s being called legalism today. I mean, you want to be different than the world. You don’t want to chase what they chase. You don’t want to always go where they want to go. And you find in Romans 12 this very clear-cut command, I beseech you therefore, brethren, you have the Spirit of God through Paul begging these believers by the mercies of God that you present your bodies a living sacrifice unto God, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service, and be not conformed to this world. but instead be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So, you know, conformity to the world, there’s only two things we’re called to conform to, or two things in scripture speak of conformity. One is the world, and the other is we’re predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. So I pick the mold I pour myself into. And the world has a mold. They have a way they talk, they have priorities, they have entertainment, they have attitudes. and the world wants us to be like them. They don’t want us to be different than them. They want to pour us into the mold of how they think, act, prioritize, and live. And the Lord says, no, I want you to come out from the world. I want you to be separate, and I want you to be like me. I want you to be like my son. So we pick the mold. And what I learned in any mold is the longer you stay pressed into it, the more you become that. So who do you spend time with? Do you spend more time in the world as a believer? Or do you spend more time in God’s word with the person of Jesus Christ and with God’s people? Whoever you spend the most time with is ultimately who you’re going to become. But I find legalism is a very misapplied term today. And I think that it’s kind of a quick way that we can just throw away standard of living that somebody has that they are just trying to please the Lord, be different than the world, and represent Jesus Christ well. And so, yeah, I think for legalism, I think that is a very misapplied term today.

[MCG]

Yeah, it seems like sometimes it’s a club to beat someone over their head with rather than to truly look into yourself when it comes to certain things, you know. Well, I agree with you on that standard, so you must be legalists, so. Yeah.

[David Sommerdorf]

I agree. And unfortunately, there is true legalism happening out there. Somebody dresses a certain way and they honestly believe that makes them more righteous in the sight of God. Let me say this very clearly. There’s nothing you can add to what Jesus Christ did for you to make you more acceptable and righteous to God. Jesus Christ is everything. You can’t make him better. Now you can choose to please your Father, you can choose to be more Christ-like in your attitudes and activities. But if you’re thinking you can add something to what Jesus did by how you dress or how you order your life, that gives you maybe a quicker entrance into heaven or a better one, you’re sadly mistaken. The blood of Jesus Christ is what makes us palatable to God, not all that other stuff.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Let me ask you this. Is legalism a sin? And if not, how do we draw a line between legalism and sinful actions?

[Jay]

Sounds like it would be, right? If you’re trusting in the works.

[David Sommerdorf]

The definition, yeah, legalism is sinful because you’re supplanting the person of Jesus Christ. You’re actually, rather than submitting yourself to his righteousness, you’re going about to produce your own righteousness and you’re treating Jesus as the down payment. And now you’re going to do other things to make yourself more acceptable to God. Whether that would have the idea of getting salvation or keeping salvation, or making your salvation better. And I think people have to recognize that great positional truth, that it’s the blood of Jesus Christ, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that literally puts you into the eternal favor of God. It’s not what you do, it’s what he’s already done. But in many ways, how we live after that becomes this grand thank you for what we have in Jesus Christ. I want to live differently because of what he did for me. I want to represent him well. You know, I don’t want to be a disobedient child. I want to be an obedient child, not fashioning myself according to my former lusts and ignorance, as 1 Peter would say. So, yeah, legalism, true legalism by definition is extremely sinful. It’s just a form of self-righteousness.

[Jay]

Yep. Okay. So as Christians, we don’t want to be legalistic. We don’t want to be legalists because that creates barriers to salvation and we’re all about removing those barriers. But we certainly don’t want to go down the other ditch, the other ditch on the side of the road where liberty allows you to do whatever you want and there’s no regard for the law of God. So how should we… if we have a personal standard, let’s say, right? We don’t want to partake in that activity. We don’t want to read those books or watch those videos or behave in this particular way. But then we have a brother in Christ that does, or in their liberty, they don’t see anything wrong with it. What should our attitude be? And how should we approach a a situation like that, where we have different standards from brethren who believe the same thing that we do, they just have a different, say, liberty standard, different standards from us. What should our attitude be towards those?

[David Sommerdorf]

Great question. Exhibit A would be COVID and how people responded and reacted.

[Jay]

Yeah, that’s a good.

[David Sommerdorf]

It just leapt to my mind right now. And I was so encouraged in many ways. There were a handful of disappointments, but you know, many local churches at that moment, they had varying opinions about COVID and how to respond to it within the membership. You had some that were no vax and nobody’s going to tell me what to do. Then you had others that were, we need to at least go ahead and yield to authority and we should do that for protection of others. They were very adamant. I mean, you did not have, I think in the local churches, a couple 100 that I’m aware of and that I speak in from time to time. These people were very solidly convinced of their view. They were right and others were wrong. But you know what? Majority of them, for sake of the unity of the body, they still gathered in Jesus’ name. They set aside their differences for the bigger cause, which was gospel propagation, seeing people saved, Jesus Christ being glorified. I was very encouraged by that. And I think maybe for a moment that can kind of come home to this question you put, I have a different standard than someone else. Maybe it’s because I’m more mature, maybe it’s because I’m less mature. Maybe it’s because of life experiences, and I got hurt by angry fundamentalism. And so I don’t want to go anywhere near that. Maybe it’s an overreaction. I don’t know, but this much I know. At the end of the day, I am not going to answer for you, and you are not going to answer for me. you are going to answer to God. And I want to hold what I hold sweetly. I want to say, you know, I believe this, but not use it as an angry weapon, but to say, man, if you just come over here, you’re going to find this is a sweet place to be. It’s simple, it’s sweet, and I just know God smiles on me for this. rather than maybe this over here. So I think the attitude is always the most important. Even above activities and associations and appearance, we have to lead with attitude. We have to lead with attitude. I’m gonna give you an example. This is good. I don’t know if I put this in the book, but I’ve been recently finding, I’m teaching on godliness a lot. And godliness is simply God-likeness. To think and act and operate like God. So when you hear that, God says, you and I have been called unto holiness and godliness. What does that look like? Well, I’ll be the first to admit that’s a big jump. Godliness, to think and act and have the character of God, that he’s way up there. So God brings it down in 1 Timothy 3.16, and he says this, without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness. And then he explains the mystery. God was manifest in the flesh. justified in the Spirit, preached unto the Gentiles, received up into glory, all of that I probably didn’t totally quote that, believed on and received up into glory. Well, that’s speaking of Jesus Christ. Thus, to be godly would to be like Jesus Christ. In other words, what would Jesus do? That’s a fair question. What would Jesus do if he was cut off in traffic? What would Jesus do if somebody slandered him? What would Jesus do if somebody needed help? What would Jesus do? And you can just fill in the blank. If he was alone with a computer and could look at anything he wanted on the internet, what would Jesus do? Because whatever Jesus would do would be godly, not ungodly. And that should be our ultimate goal. I love to take it to the next level, which is this. If you could describe your Savior to somebody who didn’t know him, what words would you use to describe him? And I actually opened it up to the congregation. You know the words I hear commonly? He was holy. He was clean. He was loving. He was merciful. He’s long-suffering. He’s generous. He’s faithful. I hear these words. And I said, yeah. So now what words do people use to describe you to somebody who doesn’t know you? Do they use the same words? that they would use to describe Jesus Christ. If they do, that’s godliness. You’re living how you should. So anyhow, living like Jesus lived with that right attitude, he was undefiled, separate from sinners, but he also was harmless. He didn’t take a bite out of people in all of his holiness. He actually helped them. There to me is that balance.

[MCG]

Amen. A curious question that just popped in my mind. What if someone has the wrong view of Jesus? How would that stages that you just took us through affect it?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, there you’re back to your personal walk with him. You have to get immersed in the Word of God and really in many ways get to know him. You have to get to know your Savior in a very intimate way. Get to know how he thinks and operates and what he loves and doesn’t love. And that’s the only way to to be conformed ultimately to the image of Jesus Christ is you have to spend time with him. You just have to spend time with him. I think people get a wrong opinion because they listen to people’s opinion of him. They don’t just get in the word of God and figure out who he is and build that relationship personally with Jesus Christ. The standard has never been you and me. The standard has always been God and Jesus Christ. And so I think there’s great value in getting that personal walk established with Jesus Christ. Above everything else, and then you understand who he is, and when you understand that, you understand how he wants you to live.

[MCG]

Yeah, the reason why that question popped in my mind is because recently, I’m sure you’ve heard, Don Lemon and a crew decided to interrupt a church service, and one of his constant… echo afterwards and even join it that I’m Christian too. And I’m like, yeah, what are you talking about? You don’t seem to be one that believe and follow the Bible, which mean AKA you’re not. I’m just curious how you would answer that if.

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, well, obviously he doesn’t know the Bible. And you’re back to what is your final authority to determine who God is and who Jesus Christ is. Even, and this is a very interesting moment, I’m a student of the Holocaust, and I’ve studied it extensively. The SS that were in charge of the exterminations, one moment in Auschwitz, and I believe that was the camp, an individual managed to wrestle the Luger out of the holster of the SS officer who was hurting people to the ovens and shot him in the stomach. And then, of course, that individual was pounced on by the other officers. But as that SS officer lay there, writhing in pain, he cried out and said, God, why must I suffer so? Quote, unquote. His very belt buckle, God is with us. So everybody has an idea of who God is. Everybody even has an idea who Jesus is, but only the Bible clearly shows you who the true and living God is and who the true and living Jesus Christ is and their values and their character. So you can come up with anything apart from the word of God and that’s what’s happening today.

[MCG]

Yep, definitely. How do we avoid sin while exercising our liberty in Christ?

[David Sommerdorf]

How do we avoid sinning while exercising our liberty in Christ? Well, I think first of all, we operate within the parameters of the word of God. I don’t think it’s ever right for a Christian to disobey the word of God. I don’t think that there’s the liberty to sin, to break the laws of God. But then second of all, in areas that are gray and fuzzy, scripture makes it clear the entrance of his word giveth light. So those things that aren’t necessarily direct precepts, but are more principles. I think the more we get involved in the Word of God, they cast away some of the gray areas and we become a lot more able to discern what would Jesus do in this situation. I also believe that the motivation for what you do kind of determines a lot of it. When you were lost, when I was lost, my motivation was self. And even in my early Christian years, there was still a lot of selfishness. I woke up in the morning, I wanted my smile. and then get married and start to realize it’s going to be better if I live for my wife’s smile. But really, as a believer, we live for our Heavenly Father’s smile. We want him to be pleased with, at the end of the day, how we acted and how we treated people and how we talked and what our focus and all that we did that day. At the end of the day, we want his smile. And so I think the secret is to recognize this liberty we have is not a liberty to sin. Galatians 5.13 says, for brethren, you’ve been called unto liberty. That’s good. I’ve been set free. Only use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh. Notice he’s recognizing we can take this liberty and decide we’re just going to serve ourselves with it. Jesus paid the debt. I’m free to go live how I want to live. He said, no, that’s not true liberty. Don’t use this to fulfill the lust of the flesh, but instead, by love, serve one another. Christian life is not yoke-free. We exchange the yoke of sin and selfishness for the yoke of service. Jesus said, take my yoke upon you and learn of me. And our liberty is actually in Jesus Christ is to be fruitful. The fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, goodness, faith, meekness, longsuffering, temperance, all that. Against such there is no law. It means there’s no restriction. Jesus is never going to get upset at us because we were too merciful, too kind, too patient. No, that’s the autobahn of Christianity. So there’s no limit on that, but he puts great limits on works of the flesh. Galatians chapter 5. And so my liberty in Jesus Christ is not to serve myself now and not to sin because the debt’s been paid. I’ve been set free from my selfish spirit. And I’ve been unshackled, so now I can serve with joy others, including Jesus Christ. And as I abided him, produce fruit of the Spirit, which is what every marriage needs and every family needs, and frankly, the world needs, is fruit of the Spirit, not works of the flesh.

[Jay]

Amen.

[David Sommerdorf]

So that’s it. That’s how I liken that.

[Jay]

Are there any other things that you believe that Christians do not understand about our liberty in Christ?

[David Sommerdorf]

Well, yeah, not really. I think that encompasses a lot there. I think if a person would just sit down and say, okay, I’ve been saved, but for what purpose? Was it just a fire escape or did he rescue me from my sin and myself? So now I can be a new person in Christ and serve others. That’s a big deal. That’s a big deal.

[Jay]

So then what is the believer’s relationship to the law then? If we’re not saved by the law and if the law can’t justify us, it can’t make us righteous, what is our relationship to the law?

[David Sommerdorf]

That’s a great question because the law is sometimes viewed so horribly. We’re not saved by the law. We’re not kept by the law. It’s the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from all sin. But the law actually has three great purposes that if we’re not careful, we’ll just go right past them. And I like what Romans says, now that we’re saved, do we disregard the law? And the scripture goes on to say, God forbid, yea, we establish the law. We double down on the law. Say, why would we do that if the law doesn’t save me or the law doesn’t keep me? Well, for three reasons, and I do put them in the book. Number one, one of the great things the law does is the law always represents and reflects the nature and character of God. Romans 7.12 says, wherefore the law is holy. Well, God is holy. So the law established will actually reflect the nature and character of God. So we want to do that. Society needs more of that, not less. Society needs more holiness, not less holiness. We need to have more knowledge of God, not less. Well, the law does that. The law, we would say, would be the Ten Commandments. That actually shows us the holy nature of God. Second of all, the law is good. It’s not bad. Now, trusting in the law to justify me is bad, a misplaced trust. But the law itself is actually good. And again, Romans tells us that, wherefore the law is holy, the law is good. Romans tells us in Romans 7 says the law is good. So it not only reflects the nature of God, but it’s holy and the commandment holy and just and good, Romans 7, 12. And probably my best way to illustrate it is every time we get a speeding ticket. I mean, I have people tell me all the time, I got a speeding ticket coming into town. As an evangelist, I get to hear this fairly frequently from people. How’s your day going? Well, it wasn’t a good day. What happened? I got a speeding ticket this weekend, you know? And they begin to tell me where they got it as if I would know I’m a visitor in their community. But I smile and take the story in. And then somewhere along the line, almost without fail, I hear, you know, that’s kind of a dumb law. I mean, going from 55 to 35. and I kind of smile and I say, could I just tell you that the law isn’t dumb? You are for breaking it. I mean, we always love to accuse the accuser. And so the law is not bad. The law is good. Everything about it is, there’s nothing wrong with the law. Now trusting in it to get to heaven, now that’s wrong, but the law itself isn’t wrong. God even writes that in our conscience. His laws. And then thirdly, the biggest one, the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus Christ. Galatians 3.24 says, the law is the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith. You know, when you establish the law, sinners see who they really are. You know, they see that they’re a lying, thieving adulterer or adulteress at heart. And it smacks and removes, it smacks down the spirit of self-righteousness and silences our demand to be treated well. And it says one thing, you know what? In my classroom, you failed. You didn’t keep me. And it drives us to find someone else to go ahead and take the test for us and impute to our account his righteousness so we can impute to his account our sinfulness and law breaking. So the schoolmaster is the law. Ray Comfort’s got it right. Another guy I have that uses his materials that’s converted it all to KJV. Ray gave him permission to do it. He said, you know, the law chases people to Calvary and you give the law to the proud and then you give grace to the humble. So law has great purpose. We don’t ever want to disregard it. We actually want to establish it.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. we go on a little bit of break. Let me come back and continue talking about your book. I draw a blank in the title, sorry.

[David Sommerdorf]

Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness. Great read.

[MCG]

Legalism, Liberty, and Lawlessness. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

Are you looking for a consistent and reliable place to get all your Christian materials? Try ChristianBook.com. Started from humble beginnings in 1978, ChristianBook.com now offers a wide range of books, CDs, DVDs, homeschooling, and church supplies, plus more. So whether you are a parent, a homeschooler, a pastor, or a layperson, ChristianBook.com can be a one-stop shop for all your needs. Click the link in the description section below and check out the vast array of Christian materials ChristianBook.com has to offer.

[MCG]

All right, Brother Dave, I’m going to get you into a little bit of a controversial topic now. When is it okay to disobey man’s law? Because we see a lot of protests slash rioting in some of our cities. Currently, if you look at the current culture and see like it’s been going on for the last five, six years, and I think a lot of the depends on which side of the political aisle you may fall on. Some might call it a protest, some might call it a riot. When is it okay to disobey manslaw, if it’s ever okay to disobey manslaw?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, great question. And one of the things that I love to teach when I’m doing a family series or dealing with constituted authority is to recognize that as believers, we’re actually called to obey civil authority. We’re called to obey constituted authority. And so whatever formula we have for obedience and submission to authority, government, boss at work, in the home, the wife toward her husband, This formula has to work globally. Wherever I go, this has to be the formula. So this is actually what I’ve come up with. And I think years ago, I heard it from David Gibbs, CLA, as a young believer, and I think I tucked it away. We obey constituted authority in everything they ask us to do until, It causes or what they ask us to do causes us to break conscience with a higher authority. In other words, God and his word. Example, classic example. When I cut into Canada to do ministry, I cannot bring weapons into Canada. Now, that’s a liberty I enjoy as an American, but going into Canada, I can’t do this. And here’s the thing, checking my weapons in before I go north to Canada does not cause me to sin against God. It doesn’t cause me to break conscience with God. But if the government required of me that I had to teach my children the transgender option and the sodomite lifestyle, that’s a word I use, that’s a biblical word, rather than gay and lesbian. And if I don’t, I’ll go to jail. I guess I’m going to jail. Because I would actually have to break conscience with God to obey their command. And in doing that, I would be sinning against God And in that instance, I need to obey God rather than man. So until it breaks conscience with God, I need to yield to the speed limit signs. I need to yield to what government asks me to do. And sometimes it’s extremely exhausting. But until it causes me to sin, I cannot take my American liberties and go ahead and meld them into Christianity and say that’s Christian liberty as well. There has to be a demarcation there. So I hope that answered your question. That’s how I look at it.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely.

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, I would say probably most of the people out there right now that are rioting in response and we see lawlessness. It’s a complete breakdown of the system. You know what I mean? They’re probably not considering God in the formula. I just want to say that. They’re probably not saying, I wonder what God thinks about this, because I think there’s a lot of more of, here’s what I want to do. And I think there’s people behind the scenes, powers of darkness, principalities, and spiritual wickedness that are manipulating all this to really tear down Western culture, tear down America. the values we were founded on, and in some ways, just tear down God. There’s a great hatred for God and Jesus Christ out there, and it manifests itself in these kind of moments sometimes.

[Jay]

Well, you know, Brother Sommerdorf, this nation was founded on racist ideology, and sometimes we need to, you know, break out of these old patriarchal ideas so that we can reach people for Christ. Maybe we need to inject a little bit of woke in our churches so that we can welcome more people in. And maybe for the LGBTQ transgender folks, we have to be a little kinder, a little more affirming so that we can open up a door to share the gospel with them. What would you say to people who make those, if I may say on my part, those are ludicrous arguments. What would you say to the people who say, hey, maybe there is a time where we can bend God’s law a little bit. Maybe there’s a time where we can disobey a little bit if we really want to get the work and the word of Christianity out there. What would you say to those people?

[David Sommerdorf]

I would say you’re not doing those, the individuals that you wanted to love, you’re not doing them any service. You know, true love, charity is based on truth. It’s not based on lies. And God has never changed. He’s never changed his mind. You go to 1 Peter and see holiness there. That was from centuries ago out of the book of Leviticus. This is not new. So God hasn’t changed. Jesus Christ hasn’t changed. And God sent Jesus Christ to die for your dirty, rotten, wicked, filthy sins. And until you make book on that, you’re never going to get anything of value from God eternally, because sin is still sin. Whether Old Testament or new, it’s still sin. And this is what’s happening. God created man in his own image. We don’t need to return the favor. and try to create God in our image based on what we want. God got here first. God set up the rules of the game of life. And we can get all upset about that because some of these rules penalize us and push us to the penalty box. And we can take our ball and go kick it over somewhere else and start our own game. But at the end of the day, when we die, God has the only game. We’ll be judged by his rules. And he was good enough to give us those rules well in advance to know how to win the game of life. And I look at it this way, to love them and show forbearance and long-suffering is necessary, but for the grace of God, there I would be. There’s nothing spiritual about being hateful. The flesh does that automatically. But to welcome them in and refuse to deal with sin, no different than an adulterer, no different than a thief, Doesn’t matter. God’s going to judge them. God’s going to judge me. And I owe them the warning that they need to trust Christ Jesus so they’re saved from their sins, not then have the liberty to live in their sin. Amen.

[MCG]

Amen. All right, so brother, for those who are interested in reading the book and stuff like that. So of course, legalism, liberty, and lawlessness. So when I was reading the book, I was like, man, I’m making pretty good progress here in reading this book because I thought, you know, those were just the three chapters. And then all of a sudden you put in some… short stories to illustrate what you were talking about. So I have a curious question. You say you always ask this question, but you never ask me that question. So I’m going to ask you that question. Can trains talk?

[David Sommerdorf]

That’s one of my chapters. That’s a cute question. Can trains talk? And most people I meet say, no, trains can’t talk. And then I always love to tell them, well, then you haven’t read Thomas the Tank Engine and all his buddies. You know, and as a father and now a grandfather of 16, I have read those books a number of times to my grandchildren. And I’ve come to the conclusion trains do talk. It is a chapter I’ve given and it’s a fascinating little look because if trains, real trains could talk like Thomas did, I could imagine this would be their conversation. They’d be cruising along on the rails, and one day one thinks to himself, he begins to talk out loud, now why do I have to stay on these restrictive tracks? Why every day, the same route, I’m so restricted by these tracks, and over there is this beautiful pond with all these ducks. I’ve always wanted to get over there close up. But no, man, I’ve got to stay on the rails. But one day he says, you know what? I’m sick of the restrictions. I’m going to jump track and I’m going to go over there and see that pond. And so he does. He jumps the rails and heads to the pond. You know, the instant he does that, he loses all of his liberty. He loses all of his power. He loses all of the blessing he could be to others as he’s carrying and transporting and serving others by moving goods around. Literally, it’s just a big train wreck. And anybody hooked up to him goes through the same mess. We as believers have the most liberty and freedom when we’re on the rails. Two tracks, I call them. The track of the truth of God’s word and then the track of the Holy Spirit of God speaking to us in that still small voice. We stay on those two rails. We listen to the voice of God through the Spirit of God who’s in us, and we listen to the Word of God and how it guides us and directs us. And we stay sin sensitive. Something will pop up between those two and we’ll go, whoa, whoa, whoa, don’t go that way. I’m gonna lose liberty. I’m gonna lose freedom. I’m gonna lose something I shouldn’t lose. And so where many people look at a certain style of living, giving yourself to the word of God, getting faithful to the house of God. The lost people see that as so restrictive. But we who are saved realize, man, that’s where we have the liberty, is when we’re walking in the Spirit of the Lord, according to the Word of God, serving with the people of God, and making a difference in the world for Jesus Christ. There’s our liberty. So Thomas talks. If trains could talk, I’m sure like most of us, that’s a conversation they would have, but they’d learn very quickly jumping the rails and leaving the the Word of God and the Spirit of God and not listening produces a lot of damage, even in their life as well as others.

[Jay]

On the same note of trains, we know that there’s an engine room. And we know, well, there’s an engine room in ships as well. If our children were to discover the engine room, let’s say, how can we avoid them jumping ship? Can you go into that, the analogy of the ship in the engine room?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, that’s another great illustration, but you look at ships and, you know, ships from a distance. distance, even oil tankers actually look pretty nice. I mean, the paint, you don’t see the chip paint until you get up close, whatever. But from a distance, they always look good. But when you get into a ship, and I’ve served on carriers and other vessels, cruise ship, I was on vacation, we did an Alaska cruise, others, but nonetheless, they all look so great from a distance. But when you get on board, there’s a lot of rooms, but every ship has an engine room. And it’s not the neatest, cleanest room in the ship. It stinks. It’s greasy, it’s oily, it’s hot. It’s kind of a place you don’t always want to spend your time there. And I remind the reader that every home has an engine room. Every church has an engine room. Every movement has an engine room. Let me illustrate. Every home has an engine room. There’s something in that home that is not exactly what it ought to be. Maybe mom is a nag. Maybe the husband has a spirit of anger. and nobody sees it but the kids, they get to see these inconsistencies. Frankly, they’re not godly. They’re ungodly. They’re sinful. We haven’t all arrived. So they get to see them. And yet they go out and everybody lauds mom and dad, oh, you guys are so great, you know. But the kids are saying, yeah, if you only knew, you know, and so they see the engine room the world doesn’t see. Churches have an engine room. They all look great when you first join them. And then you find out, whoa, they got some people here, got issues. Or maybe their theology is more candid a certain direction. You know, there’s greater emphasis on this rather than that, whatever. Every church has that. And then certainly every movement. The Independent Baptist Movement, I love to describe this way. We are the Marine Corps of Christianity. We are warriors. We will fight. We will be the last ones to give up the hill of truth. But unfortunately, in that militancy, we can be the first ones to start a fight that didn’t need to get started and lob a grenade somewhere where it didn’t need to get lobbed. So every movement, every church, every home has an engine room. As it pertains to the home, when your children see the engine room, The key to keep them from jumping ship and going to the world that looks so good at a distance, but it has engine rooms too. New Evangelical Movement has an engine room too, because the engine room is the heart. It’s the deceptive, wicked heart of individuals, and every church is full of them, and every home has them, and every movement has them. So the key there, I say this, just be real. Be real and acknowledge the engine room. Sit down with your kids and say, dad, sorry. Man, dad’s sorry, he’s sorry. I need you to pray for me. This is my problem. Or the wife says, I’m sorry that I treated your dad that way. That was not godly. Would you forgive me? I mean, you’ve got to be real. And if you’re just real, again, we’re back to that. If you’ll be real with your children, you up the ante that they’ll want to chase your savior. And if you’ll be real with God, you totally up the ante that you’re going to get saved. He’s gonna reveal to you your need for Jesus Christ. And then after you’re saved, he’s gonna build you to Christ-likeness, but you can’t get help without being real. God, be merciful to me, a sinner. A seven-word prayer from the IRS agent that came to the temple, compared to the Pharisee, the religious ruler, that had 34 words and just told God how great he was. And Jesus said, that man, God, be merciful to me, a sinner. That man went down to his house justified. He was real. And so be real. Just be real. Work your way through that with your kids. Be real. And I think that’s half the battle right there.

[MCG]

So you also told a story of Doug and his older brother while they were driving. And I’m going to say, which one It’s the older brother. But he said that driver went into the ditch.

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, well, that was me. I’m the older brother. And yeah, Minnesota driving. And I start with that one. I actually start with that illustration, how goofing around, I got too close to the right side. The snow berm that was there started dragging me in. And I did what really most inexperienced drivers will do. I overcorrected and ended up going into the other ditch. And so I start there and I liken that to Christianity. We have somebody treat us poorly. Bitterness comes in. Maybe we saw inconsistencies in a movement we were in or a church. And then we overcorrect and we go all the way to the other ditch and we land in another ditch. And I think that’s very easy to do. when we get hurt. We just throw all of it away. Our fundamental Christianity, that’s wrong. Therefore, I’m going to go to the new evangelical, smoke and mirrors and trap set and rock music on stage and entertainment. At least they love you and don’t hurt you there. And so you overcorrect. And that’s very real. That’s very, very real. And so I start with winter driving. Yeah, I’m the one who hit the ditch. But could I just add this? When I called dad borrowing the neighbor’s phone, because we didn’t have cell phones then, And I told him what I did with the family car. He never asked me which ditch. He didn’t care what ditch I went in. I shouldn’t have been in either one of them. And this is what I remind people today. You got one group on the left, and I just will say left ditch, that there’s a lot of emotion, there’s a lot of love, there’s a lot of acceptance, there’s a lot of tolerance, there’s a lack of separation. They’re in their ditch and they’re staring over to the people on the right who have gone way extreme to the right, basically calling you a heretic if you don’t believe everything they believe, and this is how it ought to be, and being angry about it, and treating people poorly that don’t agree with them, having a spirit of anger, angry fundamentalism. They’re both standing in their ditch, and they’re looking across the road to the other ditch, and they’re saying, at least I’m not in his ditch. I’m not in their ditch. But what’s really sad is they’re still in a ditch. I mean, God doesn’t care what ditch you’re in. You’re not supposed to be in either of those. You’re supposed to have a biblical balance, a spirit and truth.

[Jay]

You mentioned the principle of Samaria versus Jerusalem in the book. We know that in the scriptures, the Jews would look down their noses at the Samaritans. Hey, there’s a way to serve God. There’s a way to worship God. There’s a place to do it. This is how it’s supposed to be done. And you’re not doing it that way. And so we’re going to look down our noses at you. Could you go deeper into that?

[David Sommerdorf]

Yeah, you know, that’s exactly what I kind of just mentioned. You know, when Jesus dealt with that Samaritan woman, she noted that you Jews don’t normally deal with the Samaritans, and you say we’re supposed to worship in Jerusalem. And what she said was true. God never, never intended his people to worship in Samaria and set up a false place of worship. Jerusalem was the place they were supposed to go. There’s where the feasts were held, and there’s where they were meet every year on a regular basis. That’s true. But When you see a Samaritan in the New Testament, they’re always, they’re the good example of the right spirit. I mean, you see the man fall among thieves and, you know, the priest passes him by and the Levite passes him by, but the Samaritan stops and stoops and has the right spirit and helps an enemy. You know, they were considered enemies, ********** Jews, a Samaritan. So the Samaritan helps that person, has compassion on him. And I think what it is, we want to have our worship to be right. We want to be sure that we are not violating scripture. We want to have the heart of a Jerusalemite. We do worship in Jerusalem. No, we’re not going to bring the world in to entertain us. because we want to worship God who’s a God of holiness, so we don’t want to be casual in our approach. We want to be holy, and we want to keep the world out, and we don’t want it to come in. So we want to have the principles of a Jerusalemite, but we want to have the heart and the spirit of a Samaritan. In other words, unfortunately, most people, it’s either or. either you’re going to be this fundamentalist and you’re going to be angry about it, or you’re going to be this woke, tolerant, liberal Christian. You know, you’re sweet to everybody, but you don’t stand for anything, you know? And it’s like, well, why can’t we have the sweet spirit of a Samaritan and the biblical stand of a Jewish Jew in Jerusalem? In other words, We ought to have the right attitude with the right, Gary Prisk would say this, have the right position with the right disposition. That ought to be what we aim for. It’s not either or, it’s and both.

[MCG]

Amen. Brother, well, it could have put it much better. How can folks get a copy again of Legalism, Liberty and Lawlessness?

[David Sommerdorf]

Well, they can call my number, 512-626-0445. They can go to my e-mail, David Sommerdorf, spelled S-O-M-M-E-R-D-O-R-F at yahoo.com or go to sommerdorf.com. That’s our family ministry site and you can order it right there as well.

[MCG]

All right. And if you have listened this far into this episode and you would like to have a copy of Brother Dave’s book, We will be giving the first listener who contact us and ask for a copy, a free copy. And of course, rules and restrictions apply if you’re a friend or relative of Brother Dave. You probably can get it much easier through him, and if you’re a friend and relative of us, probably you should not access full copies, but every other listener.

[David Sommerdorf]

You guys can forward that to me, right?

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely, definitely, but if you want this free copy that we’re giving away, you can just contact us, go to removalbarriers.contact and access. access for a copy. And we also put a link to Brother Dave’s book, not only in the show notes, but also on our website that you can go directly to him and get a copy as well. All right, brother, well, let’s wrap it up with this. What is the ultimate message of the book?

[David Sommerdorf]

Well, the ultimate message of the book is to, primarily as a believer, to have a biblical balance. We use the word very fundamental in your living, being very charactered, being very Christ conscious, wanting to live a godly life. and to be like Jesus Christ. But then we would also say this in all of our separation and standards and coming out from the world and not being worldly and not allowing the world to encroach into our hearts and homes in the house of God, to have a sweet spirit as well, to find that biblical balance. And it is possible in our own strength, you’ll never get this balance. You’ll find yourself continually overcorrecting, going to one ditch or the other, but in Christ and in the great The grace that he gives and the power and ability he gives us as we humble ourselves and spend time with him to be what he wants us to be, we can be both. We can be sweet and very fundamental. We can be sweet and separated. We can be sweet and also very godly and holy.

[MCG]

Amen. Brother, how would you tie that in with the tales of the two hippies?

[David Sommerdorf]

I want the people to get the book and figure out what that chapter’s all about.

[MCG]

Amen.

[David Sommerdorf]

But that is a fascinating thing. It’s a tale of two hippies. And one of those two is a man named Lonnie Frisbee. And the movie came out on Lonnie in 2023 called The Jesus Revolution. And then the other one is an individual very dear to me, both men raised up through Haight-Ashbury in the hippie days. And both men chose a different route after a confrontation with Christ to whatever degree you wanted, you know, that. And I know that I would say we’re living in a day-to-day where the countercultural hippie days of the 60s that I live through is working its way into our churches. It is a countercultural revolution. I do not see it as being the spirit of Christ. I actually see it as something I tasted and smelled when I was a younger man. The spirit of countercultural. We are against anything orthodox. We’re against anything fundamental. And it’s a countercultural revolution driven driven by emotion and oftentimes a misplaced charity or love and tolerance. So that’s what I see. And I use two men, very interesting men to illustrate this in a tale of two hippies. And that’s all I’m going to say because it’s quite an interesting ending that this book has when I go to that final chapter.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Jay]

Awesome.

[MCG]

Well, Brother Dave, it was indeed a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on the Moving Barriers podcast.

[David Sommerdorf]

You guys are a delight and thank you so much as well. CG&J, and I pray that others will tune in to what you have. You guys do a lot of hard work, and I appreciate your voices out there bringing these truths to so many.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Jay]

This is the Removing Barriers Podcast. If the podcast or the blog were a blessing to you, leave us a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don’t forget to share the podcast with your friends. Removing Barriers, A Clear View of the Cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us, to support this podcast, or to learn more about removing barriers, go to removingbarriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.