Episode 191

Sydney Wilson was a 33-year old woman who was killed by a police officer during a requested mental health wellness check after she attacked the officer with a knife. In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we discuss the tragic incident involving Sydney’s death, the actions taken by Officer Peter Liu, whether police-involved mental health checks are conducted in such a way that promotes help for the afflicted and safety for the responders, whether Officer Liu had any other options, and whether this was a case of police brutality, insensitivity, or incompetence. No matter where you may fall on the issue, Sydney Wilson is still a soul for whom Christ died. Join us as we navigate through this sensitive topic, seeking to understand the complexities involved while promoting a clear view of the cross.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning into the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 191 of the Removing Barriers podcast and in this episode, we’ll be looking at the incident surrounding the death of Sydney Wilson by the hands of a Fairfax County police officer.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to: removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things, removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at: removingBarriers.net/donate. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Alright Jay let’s get into it. Who was Sydney Wilson?

[Jay]

Sydney Wilson was a 33 year old woman who was shot and killed by a police officer during a requested mental health Wellness check after she attacked the officer with a knife. Sydney Wilson was born in Pennsylvania, but later on moved to the Northern Virginia area. And graduated from. John’s College High School and then went on to play basketball for Georgetown University, and she was a member of many different organizations. But at the time of her death, she. She was a leasing’s operations officer for JLL. Atlantic and she is was a very tall woman by all accounts that we were able to find online. Came in at 6 foot 6 and weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 something pounds. She was not a small. She was a big woman and she was a basketball player, so that gets us to be expected. But on that day, when the police officer. Made his way to her apartment. It was suspected that she was in the middle of a mental health crisis.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Right. And so, according to her profile, some of her social media presence, she made claims of having received some sort of first responder type training and issues of mental health. It seemed like that was an area that she was at least somewhat familiar with. With many other instances that we found online mentioned that she took that training in order to understand herself better, it was for her own mental health. So it seemed. Although we don’t know this for sure, it seemed like she was aware of her mental health struggles and was trying to address them. In one measure or another, ultimately, what sent the police officer to her door was that her mental health coach or therapist or counselor. It doesn’t identify which, if there’s a difference between those 3. But that person called Fairfax police and said. Hey, there’s this woman that I normally counsel, and when I spoke to her, she appeared to be in a very agitated state. Would you go and check on her? And that’s where the circumstances began. When it came to her death.

[MCG]

Yeah. And that was on September 16, 2024, when Fairfax County Police officer Peter Liu, who is trained in crisis intervention, showed up at Sydney Wilson door and Knock on the door. The reason why? Fairfax County police did not send someone who is trained in mental health. Stuff like that is because that unit was actually busy at that point. So they guess they send Peter Lou because he’s training crisis intervention and know how to deal with these things. I do have a. I want to play that explain all the happenings of that day.

[News Report]

Well, nearly one month after arrest in woman was shot and killed by a Fairfax County police officer, police have released body camera footage of that intense moment. Officers responded to her apartment because of a mental health call, but it quickly turned viol. Violent or Matthew Torres joins us live from police headquarters in Fairfax. You just watched the video. What can you tell us?

[News Report]

Well, Simone, this is an example of how dangerous a police officer’s job can be on any given day, Chief Kevin Davis says. This officer was the victim of an unprovoked violent attack. He was checking up on a lady when police say she slashed his face with a knife, a warning. Now some of the video you’re about to see, you may find disturbing.

[MCG]

Alright, so as the CLI continues, we’ll be hearing someone saying Oh yeah, Oh yeah, that would be Sydney Wilson as she approached Officer Peter Lu and you will hear someone saying back up, back up. That will be officer Peter Lou with his gun John. Pointing at Sydney Wilson asking her to back up.

[News Report]

How are you? I thought. OK, man, what else are doing? Please back off. Back up, back up, back up.

[News Report]

All right, so we are freezing that moment of the. This happened at the apartment complex on Sunrise Valley Drive, near Reston Parkway, the morning of September. Officer Peter Liu, who is trained in crisis intervention, knocked on 33 year old Sydney Wilson’s door when she slammed it on his face. He knocked for almost 3 more minutes when she placed the phone near the door of the music on. She then opened the door again, this time with a knife and slashed that officer in the face. You could hear the officer telling the woman to back up. At least eight times, as he himself backed up into a dead end hallway. Police say he fired his gun multiple times, hitting her three times after she attacked him again. The woman’s mental health provider first reached out to police out of concern she was in an agitated state. As we’ve learned, police dealt with the same person a number of times this. Including the day before this incident.

[MCG]

All. And then you’re going to hear the chief of staff from the police Chief, Kevin Davis, give analysis of the city.

[News Report]

So he did the things that we train him and expect him to do. If you’re threatened like that, if you can tactically reposition yourself, do it. If you can use distance, use it. If you can, seek cover and concealment, seek it. All those options just weren’t available to him.

[News Report]

And as we have been reporting the last two years, Fairfax County has a Co responder program which is a unit that pairs up officers with mental health experts. Chief Davis says there was a unit that day working, but they were already responding to a different call and he believes that even though the unit may have responded with the mental health condition that this situation likely could have gone dangerous as what we saw on that body. Video and could have put that mental health experts safety. As coarse as any other incident like this, they are reviewing to see what could have been done differently. In the meantime, we’re learning. The officer is recovering, doing much better and is now working in a different department as this investigation continues. Simone.

[News Report]

All right, Matt, really tough. Appreciate your reporting on this for us. Thank you.

[MCG]

Alright, so they have a this unfortunate situation happened again in Fairfax County, Virginia. Reston, VA to be exact. Fairfax County police had to deal with her a number of times through the year and even dealt with her the day before. Jay, I guess important question here. At least one of them. Is dead officer Peter Lu had any other options?

[Jay]

I think it depends on who you ask. If you ask people who hate the police and hate everything that they do and they can do no right in anyone’s eyes, they will say. That he should have backed away. He should have used a non lethal option. He should not have come to the door without a mental health crisis professional with him. On and on and on. But I think that any objective person would look at the video, look at the extreme amount of patience and reluctance that Peter Liu had in interacting with her. He did not fire. His weapon until she slashed at him. Actually, that’s not true. He did not fire his weapon until after she actually cut him, because the first time she swung her knife at him, she missed. The second time she swung her knife at him, she actually cut him, and that’s when he fired the weapon. He was extremely reluctant. Very, very, very patient trying to get to the bottom of whatever mental health crisis that she was experiencing. I don’t think that Peter Liu had any other option in this particular situation. Was a slight moment where. She. And even backed away one step, as though she began to realize how incredibly unhinged she was behaving, and perhaps wanted to stop. But then she began. To approach him, as we all heard. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, in a very menacing way. And followed through with actual attacks, with a four to five inch knife. Aiming for the head and neck area, which of course could be absolutely life threatening, he did not have any other options. He was sent there for not just a regular Wellness check. He was sent there for a mental health check. And I have the general order as well as the Merrifield Crisis Response Center explanation page. I have them U on my computer here so that we can read what actually goes into a mental health check. I don’t think this is a situation where a cop could knock on the door and if someone says, hey, I don’t want to talk to you, they could. Like. She doesn’t want to talk to me. Going to go away now. My business. I don’t think he was able to do that in this particular. According to this document from the Merrifield Crisis Response Center, this is the organization that’s a part of the Community Services Board for serving both Fairfax and Falls Church, both of which are cities and areas in Northern Virginia. The ones. That are tasked with providing a mental health professional to go with officers during a crisis intervention, particularly mental health issue. It says the Merrifield Crisis Response Center, or MCRC for short, provides 24 hour comprehensive walk in psychiatric emergency services to individuals of all ages who are experiencing. Substance use crisis there. So the ones that, as I’ve said before, actually send clinicians or therapists or people of that nature with officers to 911 calls in which mental health is considered or suspected to be in play. They do on scene evaluation, treatment and crisis intervention to engage individuals and. Who are unwilling or unable to come to the center itself. O in a situation like a 911 call where someone is having a mental health breakdown, they obviously can’t come to the center, so they will send someone to the person with the officer. They also do critical incident stress management response. Hostage barricade response to assist police all of that falls under the Mcrc and so. They also work to help people who are in jail that are suffering mental health to try to move them to better areas. But that’s not within the purview of what we’re talking about here. Talking about police officers responding to a mental health situation, I also have here the general order from the Fairfax County Police Department. The subject, its general order, #609 it went into effect in September of 2023 and it’s up for review in September of 2026. These general orders are issued every three years. For them to. How is this order working? Could we? Well, what could we change, etcetera. So this is. The general order regarding emotionally distressed persons and the responsible entity for these types of people, which Sydney Wilson would absolutely fall under this categorization, is the crisis intervention team that is the team that Peter Liu was a part of. Was a 14 year veteran with the Fairfax Police Department and he was a member he did receive. Intervention training or they call it CIT for short. The purpose of this particular order, it says here, is to establish guidelines and procedures for officers who investigate cases involving emotionally distressed individuals. Emotionally distressed doesn’t just mean someone freaking. It’s also people that are under mental health issues. The policy of the Fairfax Police Department is such police encounters with individuals experiencing a mental health crisis require the exercise of both compassion and extreme caution. It’s the policy of the FCPD, the Fairfax County Police Department that non arrest resolutions by officers involving individuals experiencing a mental health crisis be attempted whenever possible, and that diversion from arrest may be an alternative for people experiencing a mental health episode who come into contact with police. During otherwise. Arrested. So it’s the Fairfax County Police Department’s position that when they encounter someone with a mental health issue, their goal is to get the person to identify what sort of mental health crisis is going on. Calm the person down, then engage with them in nonaggressive non arrest non police type ways. I probably didn’t say that as elegantly, but their goal is not to shoot the. Their goal is not to attack the person. Their goal is not to interact with the person as though they were a suspect. Their goal? To a mental awareness or mental acuity level to where they can talk the person down and give them the mental health that they need. That’s their official position. It says through coordinated partnerships between the courts. Other law enforcement agencies and mental health resources. The facilitation of an equitable and effective resolution for people experiencing mental health crisis may be accomplished. The big word here is may, because in Sydney Wilson’s case. She was violent and. I’m not speaking. I’ll of the dead. But you have to see it from the officers point of view where he has a right to defend and protect his own life as well. They have a few definitions here. There’s active psychosis. It’s a mental health condition that may include significant delusions and or hallucinations. Disorganized thinking and speech and or a disconnection from reality. You know, anyone watching the video? Body Cam footage of the interaction with Sydney Wilson. I mean, we’re not mental health professionals, but she was clearly acting in a way in which anyone could say, OK, she’s altered in some way. Don’t know if there’s any substance abuse happening there. Don’t know if it’s just mentally induced psychosis. Don’t know anything about what’s happening here. All we know is that. She went from zero to 100 in like 3 seconds. She went from gently saying hi. Hi, how are you at the door? Appearing to be very normal, very composed. Didn’t seem to be any reason to suspect that there was a mental health issue going on. Then she closes the door and demon comes. I don’t mean literally because I don’t know if she was demon possessed, but she went from quiet and composed to angry and raging in three seconds. Is obviously someone that’s not experiencing normal. Mental function or normal emotional function. She went from zero to 100 like that. Another definition that I’d like to point out is the word clinician, the Fairfax County Police Department defines a clinician. As a mental health professional who conducts mental health evaluations and risk assessments, a coresponder is a. Team consisting of a CIT trained police officer and an mcrc, which is mayor field, Crisis Response Center and an mcrc clinician who respond to events involving individuals engaged in a health crisis.

[Jay]

So when there is a health crisis, it’s just two people. It’s just the officer that’s a part of the CIT team. And the clinician and later on in the policy, a clinician can be an actual doctor. Can be a. It could be a counselor. So any one of those people are identified as a mental health professional that are able to. Evaluate people going through mental health issues. In this case, of course, they said that, which is something that I think we should talk about. They said that there was no one available because the team was on another call. That tells me that the Mcrc only has one clinician to respond. To any call that comes in to. In this case, it’s Fairfax or Reston or Falls Church. There’s only one clinician available to the entire department to go on these mental health crisis.

[MCG]

Well, just for listener sake Falls Church is a independent city within faithful County that have its own police force as well. I can see the reason for one I I can’t imagine that they would have need to have 5. Crisis intervention person there, I don’t know, but I can’t imagine that they get that many calls that involve mental health. I could be wrong, but I would disagree that when she came to the door the first time she was in a normal state.

[Jay]

How did you see her when she was there? She opened the door. She said hi. Hi. And and then she slammed the door.

[MCG]

I didn’t see something doing his face. That’s not normal.

[Jay]

Right.

[Jay]

Yeah. To say hi and shut the door just because you don’t want to deal with the police.

[MCG]

To a Poly to a police officer, it might be that she didn’t want to deal with police and stuff like that, but to come to the door and say hi, hi, and then close the door in a police officer face.

[Jay]

Sure.

[MCG]

Most people 99 of people would not open the door to a police officer and then slam the door in the face. Mark you is that? But most people would not do that. At least a lot of people that, yeah, well, let’s leave other that most people would not close the door in a police officer face like that. Of course you don’t have legal. Obligation to open the door to a police officer in the United States of America if they can come and they can wrap all they.

[Jay]

You sure don’t, right?

[MCG]

You don’t have to open the door if they have a run for your life and reason to enter your door. The legal reason to enter the door, they’re going to break that door in and come in. If you don’t want to interact with police officers. But you. You don’t have to, but.

[Jay]

You don’t have. That’s why I said that her behavior there was not out of the norm.

[MCG]

But I wouldn’t say it’s normal. I had a police officer walk up to. Just to ask me a question a couple months ago I answered him. I didn’t have any legal obligation to, but he was just asking a random question. Was like, well, I don’t know. So another thing also I don’t even remember this when we had this neighbor that used to love to play loud music and get junk in his apartment in the days when we were living in a condominium community.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

And I remember one thing, the police officer said to me, we had to call police on him because he would be playing music at 1-2 in the morning, loud.

[Jay]

Loud.

[MCG]

So one thing the police officer said.

[Jay]

Oh. Loud.

[MCG]

You know, he went up to his apartment. They come back, he say he’s. Junk in his apartment. And that’s not illegal, so I can’t do anything about that. I did ask him to turn down his music and if he turned it back up, you can call me back. But there’s not much we can do because the laws and noise pollution apparently had just changed and there’s nothing they could do. I say all that to say this. Did officer Peter Lou have any other? Well, I’m going to be Monday morning quarterback in here, but my answer to that is yes, technically I think yes, he had other option.

[Jay]

What other options did he have?

[MCG]

Well, first. Firstly, he was standing way too close to the door.

[Jay]

Oh yeah, that’s true. I agree with that.

[MCG]

So technically, you know, he should have stepped back. You know, 2-3 feet from the door wrapping the door and step back. Even when I got sore. When I knock on someone door, I always step back from the.

[Jay]

Door so that no one. You don’t want to be in someone’s. When they open the door right?

[MCG]

Nothing only is that courteous, is just, especially for a police officer. That.

[Jay]

But at the same time, he was on a. Health. And you know what? Police officers. They come to a door and they listen first. Before they knock, that was the same thing that happened with the shooting of the Air Force gentleman that opened the door with a gun.

[MCG]

Yes, but.

[Jay]

The same thing they come to a door and they listen first before they knock on the door.

[MCG]

Yeah, but the police officer didn’t stand at the door. He wrapped on the door and he stood right there. Probably should have stepped back, probably going at. Just something tactically just in case he’s attacked. Secondly, again, I say I’m running on the quarter, quarterback.

[Jay]

Sure. Yeah.

[MCG]

Secondly, when she came out and swung the knife at him and maybe even nicked him, then he went straight back. If he had turned to his left, if he was paying attention a little bit, I went to his left. There would have been a longer hallway that direction, I think even that hallway would probably be the hallway with elevators are that longer hall. And maybe even the stairways where he could have, since he’s retreating where he could have backed up much longer, and even. Escape down the stairs or whatever the case may be. So he had that option.

[Jay]

I. Think that he would have been able to because now when she has a knife in her hand at this point. A suspect now so.

[MCG]

Right. I’m I’m. I’m not saying that she didn’t deserve to be arrested. I’m just saying the options he had standing little bit further from the door. If he had been paying attention. Of course now he was in a heightened state. Anybody and their dog probably would have missed to go left. And go down the longer hallway so.

[Jay]

Yeah, and he seemed to stumble backward too. So.

[MCG]

I didn’t see a stumble, but the point remained. Was a longer hallway, if you.

[Jay]

Yes, he did back himself into a dead end hallway there. Yeah.

[MCG]

Left, but yes, he backed himself in a dead end hallway. Gone. He probably would have options. From elevators to stairs. To. Maybe go away from her. Get back up and come. Arrest her, of course, because she would have been needed to be arrested because she attacked a police officer, you know, thirdly, and this is probably the biggest one, and you’re probably going to disagree. Me, this one.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

When Sydney Wilson was in her apartment, right.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

When she answered the door, she was clothed. She looked healthy. She exhibit unusual behavior by high, high and slowly doing his face, but. But none of that was illegal. He was doing a Wellness check. So why is she answering the door? He saw that she was alive. He saw that she was healthy, at least from what anybody can tell from looking at somebody. She didn’t look slump over or like she haven’t bathed in weeks or whatever. Looked like a normal person in a robe in the apartment. She slapped the. I think he should have left at that point. Think he should have left and reported her. I made contact with a person. To talk to me and they look healthy. What else do you want to do? Again, I’m not a crisis invention. Trained person. So I don’t know what else he wanted to do. Don’t know if he just wanted to. Are you OK? Do you need help or whatever the case may be? But at some point you have to say hey. I made contact. She didn’t want to talk to me and I move on, just like if a police officer come to my door right now and he said he just want to talk to me, I can throw the door and say no, I don’t want to talk the extra 3 minutes. Stood there and wrapped on the door for her to come back and she put her cell phone on the door with music blasting.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

So that tell you that? Hey, she doesn’t want to talk to me. Think he should have just moved on? On there, I say hey, in this report I made contact and she didn’t want to talk, but I’m no lawyer, so I don’t know if you just read all the stuff there from the code that they follow and everything, maybe by department standard, because I can’t see this.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Be legal, but by departments and maybe had to stand there and really. Got contact with her and to really say she was OK, but for me, if by chance I need to do a Wellness check on somebody, of course I’m not going to ever have to do a Wellness check on anybody unless they’re family. But if I’m doing a Wellness check at somebody and they answer the door and they look like Cindy Wilson as much as their behaviours are weird. I would conclude that the person is OK because they look OK, like for instance, I went to knock on a door once you know soul winning and the person only doing shouted at me. Why are you bothering? Stop bothering me and slam the door. I didn’t call police because that person displayed mental issues, you know, total stranger at your door. You say I’m bothering you. Like, OK. Get you don’t want to talk to me, but I didn’t think that you weren’t. Police officer should come over and investigate on his mental state. Again, I don’t know what her mental health counselor said to the FAFSA County. Why they need to go over this issue with agitated state? I’m not quite sure what that means. Clearly she was agitated because when he came, she came out and slashed her table with a knife. But I’m just simply saying the fact is he made contact. She look OK, move on. I would say again, that’s not legal advice, but I don’t think anything she exhibited between the first contact. Was illegal or rare, and any further investigation she’s OK.

[Jay]

He couldn’t do that. He couldn’t do that because of the protocol that the Fairfax County Police Department and the Mcrc have set in place for interacting with people that are having a mental health episode. Is from the Fairfax County.

[MCG]

Well, they need to change the rotocol.

[Jay]

They probably do need to change their pro. Cedures. But here’s what the Fairfax County Police Department policy is when it comes to responding to mental health. 1970s, when the FCD receives a call that has someone exeriencing a mental health crisis, it’s called a Marcus alert and the Marcus Alert is defined as. An alert system designed to enhance services for individuals experiencing a crisis related to mental health, substance abuse or developmental disability. Creates coordination between 911 and regional crisis call center. And it establishes a specialized response from law enforcement whenever responding to a mental health situation. So in order for the police officer to get the mental health clinician to answer a call with him or her, whoever the officer is, they have to issue a Marcus alert. Once the Marcus Alert is issued. They have to respond a certain way. Things have to be done. Certain things have to be. Yeah, like they have to have an actual record of what happened and what the officers did. If you’re having a mental behavioral health crisis, there are different levels. A low level behavioral health crisis. Of course, there’s a high level a low level behavioral health crisis includes a person that doesn’t. Meet certain criteria or they don’t require transport to the mcrc. It involves people who they’re having a difficulty or an ability to. They have suicidal thoughts, but they have no plans to actually carry it out. They have an altered mental state. Without eminent safety or medical concerns. Or they have an altered mental state, but there are no drugs involved. Minor self injurious behavior like hitting yourself, things like that. Like when they have their mental health. Some of them can hit themselves, but you know if they’re not doing any actual. Actual hurt or harm to themselves. If they are able and willing to participate in their own care and safety, if there’s no mental health history there, if it’s for a caregiver for nonviolent, all of these things are considered low level behavioral risk, high level behavioral health crisis is when a person. Has active suicidal or overdosing attempts their suicidal thoughts with a plan and the lethal means to do so. They are in known active psychosis. Expressed homicidal. Thoughts with no active behaviors or intent? So even just saying I’m going to kill you is enough for that to be a high level behavioral issue. Or if they’re actively hurting themselves, like cutting and or things like that, things that would injure themselves now, it would be interesting to know if they received a call from the mcrc or from the mental health provider. And then they have to issue a Marcus alert. All the mental health. Providers. Was she’s in an agitated state. What does that mean? Could mean. That could mean she’s running down the hall and screaming and shouting with a knife over her head. That could mean she’s just bothered. I don’t think they had a clear idea of how bad it was. They thought, well, she’s just. Maybe this is low level and low and behold, he goes and knocks on the door and she slashes his head. I think there’s that element there too, where perhaps they didn’t know what they were getting into. Now he knocks on the door and she appears to be fine. But according to the protocol, I’m going to Scroll down here. It says when. Funding to low level behavioral health crisis. Is what they’re supposed to do. Supposed. Let me just read it that way. Don’t get it. It says where a low level mental health crisis is encountered in the field with no known imminent risk. Officers should divert to Rccc, which is a regional crisis call center. Whenever feasible, officers should inform individuals or caregivers about the rccc and assist individuals in connecting with them on the field or from the field as appropriate. Additionally, officer should be mindful that low level behavioral health concerns may be masked within police. Calls for service initially pertaining to criminal issues, and that’s not what we’re discussing here. Were no criminal issues that preceded this particular incident. So now from there the Rccc will conduct a risk assessment and provide phone support and coordinate with a regional mobile crisis team response if deemed appropriate. And then it goes on to explain. Other things, the regional crisis center. Will do so in his. The reason why he probably knocked on the door again is because, according to his department, he has to tell her, hey, I’m here to check on your mental health so and so-called and said that you were agitated. I want to let you know about this rccc. This is the number and this is how you can get in contact with him and then his duty would be over. That would be it. He knocked on the. And I’m assuming he tried to do that. Went Hannibal on him so.

[MCG]

Well, I would say, OK. They got the call not from her or not from a neighbor, but from her mental health counselor.

[Jay]

Yes.

[MCG]

Clearly, she already have people like that in her life that can help her. Yes. So knocking it the second time and waiting 3 minutes for her to answer the door the second time. I don’t think was necessary rounded on the officer’s back again Monday morning quarterbacking because. ** *** already had a mental health counselor in her life. She already know all that information you want to give her anyway, but he probably knew that because the call came in from her mental health counselor. So I’m saying, OK, you saw her. She look well. Weird behavior again. And none of these are illegal. Again, I’m no lawyer, but The thing is, I still stand by the fact that if he had said, say hey, look, I made contact, she looked well.

[Jay]

Yes.

[MCG]

I’m moving on. I think that would have been totally fine, at least in. Book I don’t.

[Jay]

I. Think.

[MCG]

But anyway.

[Jay]

He’s unemployed by RBP, but like I say again, I don’t think he was able to do that because at the very least he has to let them know about the rccc. And it’s one of those things where if you get the police involved, there’s a. Number of things that they absolutely have to do. It was like that one time when we called the local. Company because we smelled gas in our condo and I told her, hey, it’s probably nothing. Like well if. Call us. We have to come out. Like a. It’s a policy that they have to follow, and that’s probably what happened. Maybe what he should have done was just have like the Rccc calling guard and just put it under her door. But as a police officer, I’m sure he didn’t have that on him. So maybe that’s what? But I think that he was. Because he had to inform her. Of the options that were available in this particular case, it’s the regional crisis call center.

[MCG]

Alright, but I stand by my point.

[Jay]

OK.

[MCG]

He was standing too close to the door when he could have gone back. He went straight back when he should have gone left.

[Jay]

Yes, that I I can give. Yeah.

[MCG]

And also I think he should have left after the first contact. However, my final thing that he could have done differently, and I think he. He waited way too long to. Her.

[Jay]

Definitely waited way too long.

[MCG]

And if Sydney had a gun instead of a.

[Jay]

Way too long. He’d be dead.

[MCG]

He’d probably be. And if Sydney was more agile than she was, he probably would have been dead too. Sure, because it was the second time that he told a backup backup backup. But he made her get back into his reactionary gap by standing too close to the door he allowed her. Once she opened the door, she was immediately in his reactionary gap.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

No way he could have reacted fast. Maybe not even Bruce Lee could have reacted fast enough to block the first flash. Then he said back up, back up, back up as he himself backed up in a dead end, and even with a gun pointed at her, he allowed her to come into his reactionary gap again so she could slash him again, and waited way too long to shoot. So. Something he could have done differently.

[Jay]

Definitely.

[MCG]

So there’s a number of things, and again, as I said, if Sydney was more agile, maybe he would have been, she killed him and he killed her. Because even the first shot, she didn’t fell into the third shot after she was shot three times and he missed twice.

[Jay]

Yeah, he fired five shots and she.

[MCG]

And she hit her three times. But it wasn’t until after the third shot she finally dropped.

[Jay]

Only. 3.

[MCG]

And he actually had to go around her to so he can keep on moving.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah. He waited way.

[MCG]

He waited too long, but I guess the question here, regardless of all the money, won the quarterback and I’m doing. Did he have any legal or moral standing to shoot?

[Jay]

If anyone’s questioning what I feel about this, absolutely he did. His life was in danger. She was definitely an imminent threat to him and they always say never bring a knife to a gunfight, but if you’re under 21 feet, knife wins over a gun every time.

[MCG]

Well, if you’re not moving, if not.

[Jay]

If you’re not moving, of course. But Oh no, he absolutely had both legal and moral grounds to shoot her. And I said this before you said it as well. Waited way too long to fire. He didn’t fire at her until she slashed at him the second time. And that’s the only time he opened fire. He had legal footing to fire the first time she slashed at him. So yes, absolutely. He had legal grounds to to do so, for sure.

[MCG]

Yeah, I would. I would agree there that he definitely, as I said earlier, waited too long and definitely have legal right to shoot regardless of my mother want quarterback in.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

I do think that he had a right to shoot because. So she already express intent to do previously badly injury and harm, and who knows all the slashing she was doing could have easily gotten to his eye because she got into a forehead to his neck.

[Jay]

His neck.

[MCG]

So and I don’t think that bullet for vests are rated for stab wounds. So she.

[Jay]

Could have. They’re not actually.

[MCG]

Do a lot of damage to him by him waiting so long.

[Jay]

From what I understand. From what I understand, only officers that work in the prison system have vests that can prevent stabbings because they’re not necessarily worried about gunshots in those situations. So she could have stabbed through his vest, although she came at him like a girl. She didn’t have stabbing motions, which are much more lethal than slashing. She came at him with slash emotions, but still that is life threatening or capable of causing great bodily harm. And so I think a better question would be to ask, was there any other option and how they responded to the call? Should he have just waited until there was a CIT officer there? Like a mental health person that could go with. Or maybe he should have gone with backup or their options.

[MCG]

I would say yes again. No police. I don’t know Alder insurance and outs of the rules and whatever they want to follow, I do know favors. County is strongly liberal area. So who knows why the laws are the way they are there, but. I would say. She was in the agitated state. State you and I don’t even know what. Means, you know, we robably would have to ask someone. Does it even mean by agitated state, right? But did they say she was committing any crime again? Was in her apartment. We only have the video and the audio from when he got there, but there’s no indication that she was making extraordinary noise in her apartment. Don’t indicate that she was. And one in the unit. She was in her apartment, maybe going through a crisis. Who knows? Her boyfriend left her in the night before. Something.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

Who knows what was going on and what her mental state was, but I guess my point is I don’t think this was an emergency, she. 10/19 OK someone like that in danger. Me get there. She was engaged in the life of a kid. Whatever. She wasn’t doing all that. She was in her apartment, going to a mental state, just like the police officer told me. The guy was drunk in his apartment. It’s not illegal having a mental issue in your home. As far as I see, is not illegal. If you’re not harming anybody. To me, they could have just waited again. Hindsight is 2020 and I get it. But because no one knew she would have done. And no one suspected that she would have done that. She have dealt with her before, so maybe they figure, you know, we have been here before. Just talked to her and she’s OK. Whatever case may be. Maybe they could have. So the actual mental health professional can come and talk to them, but as Chief Davis said, who knows that mental health person could have come and.

[Jay]

We robably would have gotten stabbed too, right?

[MCG]

Could have gotten in trouble, so Sydney Wilson kind of set the stage here and and who knows what would have happened otherwise. Could a. I think they probably could have waited. And again, I go back to my point. I think after the first contact she looked healthy. She. Well, go about a business, you know, that’s my take on that.

[Jay]

Maybe we should call that how the protocol or how the policy should be changed, because if he hadn’t done that, let’s say she never, you know, tried to attack him. And if he hadn’t done that, I would imagine he could be in trouble for that in some measure. Reprimanded or something? Hey, this is the protocol. Is the. You didn’t follow the. You didn’t do this that you know that could probably put him in trouble.

[MCG]

But by the.

[Jay]

That’s why.

[MCG]

By the fact that he hesitated, and we’re gonna talk about this later on. He hesitated. Maybe he doesn’t want to have that on his conscience. I’ll prefer have my chief and captain threw me out and give me a strike or something for not following protocol this once. Then to have to shoot somebody but.

[Jay]

Yeah.

Mm.

[MCG]

Again, Monday morning quarterbacking because he didn’t know all that would have happened. Didn’t have all the choice and all that stuff.

[Jay]

Right, right. And it happened so quickly. It happened so quickly, so of course, like you said Monday morning quarterbacking, and there’s no way to tell how you would react if you’re in that situation, so.

[MCG]

Yeah, all. You’re listening to the removing virus. We are talking about Sydney Wilson, a soul for whom Christ died. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

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[MCG]

All right. Well, we have to ask this question for all of these that we do, especially when it involves a police officer and a black person African American. Where the circumstances surrounding her death racially motivated?

[Jay]

You know, I haven’t seen a lot of movement online that would claim that this is racially motivated in some way, but I don’t see any indication that this was racially motivated. Peter Liu is not white. He’s of Asian descent.

[MCG]

Do you think that’s why he wasn’t?

[Jay]

Yeah, maybe the intersectionality wasn’t there. Maybe that’s what that was. And of course she was. But that absolutely had nothing to do with the situation. Was a mental health. Call. She opened the door and slashed at. And then it was on from there. I think he would have responded if an Asian responded that way or if a white person has responded that way. Don’t think the color for skin had anything to do with that moment. Omeone skin doesn’t matter when they are actively trying to kill you. No, I don’t think there was any racial motivation there. What do you think?

[MCG]

For argument sake, I’m going to say yes, and here’s why. It was ritually motivated, but not in the way that we’re thinking about it.

[Jay]

OK. How are you thinking about it?

[MCG]

We’re thinking about it was racially motivated. So because she was black, he shoot her. I’m saying it was racially motivated because she was black. He hesitated to shoot her.

[Jay]

Ah, that’s interesting.

[MCG]

And the hesitant that he had and all the grace quote UN quote that he gave her could have been because she’s black.

[Jay]

Could have been.

[MCG]

Because let’s look at it this way. Many officers have lost their jobs even when they’re in the right. After shooting a black person, think about Darren Wilson basically lost. You know, the fact to continue to be a police officer, all this stuff basically went into hiding, basically vanished from society after the shooting of Michael Brown, which he was not legally liable for. This is a controversial one, but Officer Derek Chauvin is in prison right now. Maybe the events of George Floyd, kind of. Led to the rise of BLM, the social cultural norms. But I’m simply saying here is. Maybe all these things were in Officer Peter Lue. That if I shoot this black woman. I’m going to make the Evening News. Going to make the national. I’m going to be all over the Internet because I shoot a black person. So maybe because of that. He decide that he’s going to wait as long as he did. Get into his reactionary. Acting her to back up, back up, back up. He just didn’t say back up, he said. Back up.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

When do you know a police officer use please? When did they give in a legal command?

[Jay]

Right, that doesn’t happen. That doesn’t happen.

[MCG]

I’ve never heard. And I. Don’t know after Peter. Maybe he’s understand kind sweet person that when he’s arresting someone, he said. Please put your hand behind your back. I know. A number of police videos and police channels and YouTube and wherever, and I’ve never heard any police officers in body. Please do anything when they give that legal command. If the acting Commissioner Carter the vehicle, come out of the car, wind down the window, put the hands behind their back, you’re on their arrest. I’ve never seen the use pledge in trees.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

Course they have used some strong words. But I’ve never seen. Please so to me, yes, it probably was. And it could be because of the Peter Luther want to get all the attention. That all the other officers before him were shot from black person. Is legal or not come upon him. That’s my. That’s why I’m saying yes.

[Jay]

That’s a very interesting. I think his hesitation to fire could have also been because this was a mental health crisis.

[MCG]

That’s a good point too.

[Jay]

He was unwilling to fire as well. Yeah. So do you think that he’s to blame for her death?

[MCG]

No, I think the only person to be blamed for her death, unfortunately, is Sidney Wilson. You know, unfortunately, I think she was going to a mental health issue and I understand. Officer Peter Lu may feel a bit guilty at this point, and even her mental health counsel may be feeling a bit rotten as well. But in terms of who to blame, he has to be seen as she’s the one who came over the knife. You know, it’s UNF.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Because who knows what her mental state was? Far as I can. And what people say about it, you seem like you were the sweet woman being, you know, a lot of people describe her as a gentle giant, but at the same time, they did describe Michael Brown as a gentle giant. He wasn’t anything but a gentile giant with strong arm robbery. But I don’t know her and I don’t know Michael Brown, so I don’t know. But from what I can tell, this was unusual behavior for her. From what I’ve read, comments have read of people who knew her and work with her. This seemed like he was unleashing behavior for her, so clearly she was going through something. Plave mental or spiritual or whatever that causes to do this. But at the end of the day, what are you going to mental crisis or not? He attacked someone. They have to defend their life and after Peter Lou chose his life over hers and I would have done that too, I would have chose my life over hers, you know. So she’s only wanted to be in my book.

[Jay]

This is probably beyond the scope of this particular podcast, and we could probably discuss it some other time if you would prefer, but I wonder how much of this is mental. Health and how much of this is spiritual? This is an ongoing question that I have rolling in my mind. The nature of mental health and how Christians are to engage with it. Seems to me that if you are dealing with a situation in which you are seeking. To kill and destroy. Now we’ve left the realm of mental health and we’re going into perhaps. Demonic influence if not possession, at least influence or oppression because. John 1010 says that the thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill, and to. And this is the Lord speaking and I don’t want to take any passage out of turn or out of context, because for a slight moment there. She stopped and took a step back, as though she were reconsidering the choices that she was making at that Partic. But then she continues forward, uttering the Oh yeah, in a very low and menacing sort of threatening way, and actually follows through with even more slashing and hacking and life threatening actions. And so I wonder if there are other things that play besides mental health.

[MCG]

We live.

[Jay]

Society now where all kinds of corrupt, sinful, evil things are pouring in through the eye gate, pouring in through the ear gate. The things that we watch, the things that we listen to, the things that we love in this world and those things. Things can and do change us emotionally, spiritually, mentally. They do have a negative affect. We’ve spoken before on this podcast about the link between the consumption of *********** and the LGBTQ transgender issues that are happening. There is a link there.

[MCG]

We.

[Jay]

There’s such a link there that even non Christian feminists are pointing it. People who you think would be less likely to identify these things are saying, yeah, there’s a link there. The things that we consume change us for better or for worse. And so there’s the element there where she was playing music on her phone. And you’d be hard pressed to find a person in the US that doesn’t consume music and shows and things like that. The things that we see. In the. See and hear the world, for lack of a better. Obscene. And they’ve been obscene for a very, very, very long time. And I wonder if through these things we’re opening ourselves up to. At the very least. Ungodly influence. If we don’t want to use the word demonic, ungodly influence, what are your thoughts on that?

[MCG]

Well, to answer that question, I think is kind of above my pay grade, but I’ll I’ll say this from Scripture every time I see mental health issues in Scripture.

[Jay]

Me too actually.

[MCG]

It always demon possession or demon oppression. Now, I’m not saying Cindy Wilson was demon possessed or demon oppressed. I don’t know. I’m just saying from my observation from Scripture, that’s always been the case. Now, is that always the case when someone have a mental?

[Jay]

No, absolutely right.

[MCG]

I would say no. However, you can go to two extremes. You can say if you have mental health issues. Your demon possessed or demon oppressed. I don’t. Or you can go to the other extreme and say you should never seek any help or any medication for mental health.

[Jay]

Uh.

[MCG]

I think those are necessary 2 extremes that you might find with Christians. I don’t know what the answer is. But however. I wasn’t listening to this podcast of this doctor, and he’s perfect Christian, and he specialized in something to do with the brain. And he said something I never really thought about.

[Jay]

Mm.

[MCG]

Said that, a lot of Christian would hesitate to take a medication to help with whatever is going on in their brain.

[Jay]

Uh.

[MCG]

But they would not hesitate to take a medicine to help them with their heart issues or their kidney issues or whatever. And he said the brain is a organ, just like the heart and the kidney. So why is it that you should not take medication to help your brain function properly? But he will take medication to help your heart function properly, and you don’t see anything wrong with it. So he does have a point, however. The mine is a little bit more than just physical. Would say there’s a spiritual aspect there.

[Jay]

Yeah, for sure.

[MCG]

You know, so if they want to say to so should Christians seek these help and all that stuff? I’ll say we have limiting Christ. Speak to your pastor about that. I don’t even know what I would. I would probably would do a lot of research before I do any of these things, sure.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[MCG]

So is it spiritual? I think to some extent it can be and it probably was normal people. Most people are not getting up every day and thinking well. I’m going to use a nice or slash, somebody ’cause something is going on. Was it all physical? All mental health, I would say. Maybe there was definitely some spiritual aspect to it, but I’m not qualified to make that decision or to judge and stuff like that. So at the end of the day, all we know that she was going through a mental issue and I also know that when we see that in Scripture that it’s usually and always, at least in Scripture, it always demon possession demons and the Bible. Keep you in perfect peace. Whose?

[Jay]

Hearts are fixed only.

[MCG]

So with that said, I know I’ve had preachers say that you should never have to go to these things if you’re in the word and you’re close to Jesus and they have a point. Is it always that you? Is there a hard question to answer? Is it hard to say black and white because. Again, you know, should you have had it’s used when your mind is set upon D. Know should you know, should you go to doctors when you have issues? Don’t go to the great physician and pray. A lot of things that you know. Should we say fate and not, you know, all pray that God would use the doctor to make us whole at the end of the day, you know every. Have to make the decision for them in. True, the leader and the Holy Spirit and stuff like that, but. I can’t say that she was or wasn’t demon possessed.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

I would say definitively. That I think there was some spiritual aspect going on here. What? And to what extent? I don’t know.

[Jay]

Yeah, I think that’s. And I think that’s a very nuanced and balanced and even if that were the case, even if it isn’t the case, I think that you and I would both agree that Sydney Wilson was a soul for whom Christ died. You know, there’s no telling what she was even thinking. To wield a knife. On a police officer, especially a non threatening one like Peter Liu was, there’s no way that I could even begin to know what her mental state was. Was clear that it was not normal. Was. It was violent, but even with those failures, and even with all of that. Working against her, she’s still someone that Christ died for. We just spoke to a person who described thief on the cross thief on the cross. Did something terrible enough to be crucified for terrible enough to receive the worst Roman punishment.

[MCG]

The.

[Jay]

That was available at the time, or even to day, and still the Lord looked to him and at his. Comression claimed that he would be with him in Paradise so. The Lord cares about the lost soul, even when there’s mental break. There’s mental illness there, or whether it’s spiritual oppression of a demonic sort there, or whether it’s someone who has fallen short of the glory of God. One of us can feel that can feel that description right. A soul for whom Christ died. O there might be a temptation, particularly within conservative Christian circles, in talking about these particular police interactions, to have a sort of hard line. Harsh sort of conservative view on it, perhaps even to interact as though this was not a person. For whom Christ died. But I think Christians shouldn’t get their Christianity confused with their conservatism and realize that this was still a soul that unfortunately went into eternity. We have no way of knowing what her spiritual condition was. But she walked into eternity that day, and I’m sure she wasn’t expecting to. I’m sure she’s wake up this morning and say, hey, I’m going to go suicide by cop. I don’t think that she was waking up and thinking that, but that was her day to meet the Lord.

[MCG]

Luke, chapter 19, verse 10 for the son of man has come to seek and to save that which. Off, of course, we.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

John 316 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The truth is, regardless of all the happenings. Whether. Had other options. What he he tactically or otherwise? The truth is, the reality is right now Cindy Wilson has gone to face her maker and the Bible declares in Hebrews Chapter 9 and verse 27 as it appeared not to man wants to die. But after this the judgement. She has gone to face her maker. As she has received from the righteous judge, the judge of all the Earth to just judge the just judgment that she deserve, whether it is welcome home, my precious child or unfortunately is depart from me. I never knew you. I don’t know her spiritual state, but she definitely has faith maker because the Bible tells us, appointed unto man wants to die. But after this the judgement. Equally as useful and 14 says for God shall bring every work into judgment. With every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil. Romans, chapter 2, verse 6. The Bible says God will render to every man according to his deeds. Matthew 12, verse 36. But I say unto you, that every idle word that a man speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of Jud. What I’m saying is that one day you 2 listener will have to answer to the highest judge creator of the universe, Jehovah. God, the question is, Are you ready to face your maker? Sydney Wilson did not know that on September 16th 2024 was her last day. She did not know that and you don’t know when your last day will come, but. It is inevitable it will come. So you need to prepare to face your maker. First of all, you must see yourself as you are a Sinner in need of a savior. The Bible declares in Romans Chapter 3 and verse 23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All have sinned. Includes you all means all. The Bible said in Romans Chapter 5 and verse 12 wherefore by one man Sin entered into the world and dead by sin for that pass upon all men, for that all have sinned. Right, we said the Romans 310, as it is written, there is. Righteous. No, not one. So by way to clear here that all of us are. God created mankind back in the Book of Genesis. We give this man one command that he should not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And they disobeyed and Bible say. Sent into the world because we are descendants of Adam, we inherit that sinful nature. And also we have commit our. So all of us are sin. What is by sin of Commission, where the Bible said that we should not do something and we do it, or sin of a mission. The Bible say that we should do something and we do it anyway. The Bible says we are all sinners. How many? Of us. And because we are sinners, we’re going to have consequences. The Bible says in Romans 623 for the rages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, my friend, you are Sinner. You cannot get there by your good. Because even Isaiah 64, verse six said that. The writers are like filthy rags. O we were born in sin. We commit sin. We cannot get to heaven as a Sinner. We cannot get there on our own works. And it rages its debt. So are we hopeless? No, we’re. Because the Bible says in Romans chapter 5, verse 8. But God commendeth his love towards us in that while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us while we were yet. God demonstrated his love to us while we were yet sinners. By sending Christ to die in a cross for our sins while we were still filthy while we were still ungodly. While we still have mental issues, God sent his son Jesus Christ to die in the cross. Jesus paid the debt that we could never pay. Jesus satisfied the father requirement of Abraham 53, verse 11. Speaking of Jesus, the Bible says he that meaning God the Father shall see the travail of his soul that Jesus Christ. And shall be satisfied. The only thing that could satisfy sin payment. Was Jesus Christ so how can he uplif this judgment that’s coming? How can you make sure that you hear? Welcome home, my faithful child. Rather than depart from me, the Bible says in Romans, chapter 10, verse 9 to 13, that he thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God is raising from the dead. Thou shalt be saved for. The heart. Believe it or not, righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture said, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed, for there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon. Him and verse 13 said for whosoever. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved cross referent, that with John Chapter 16 for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For whosoever shall call upon. Name of the Lord. Shall be saved that whosoever includes you, my friend. Me and of course we can conclude with Romans 8, verse one and two. The Bible says there is therefore now no condemnation. To demolish our in Christ Jesus, who walked not after the flesh, but after the spirit for the law of the spirit of life in Christ, Jesus had made me free from the law of sin and death. My encouragement to you listener, if you have never. Placed your faith in Jesus Christ. If you have never been born again. If you have never called upon the Lord to be saved, that you would do that. Today.

[Jay]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Did you know that you could find us on? Gab, Parler, Facebook and Reddit go to removingbarriers.net/contact and like and follow us on social media. Removing barriers. A clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get ahold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers go to: removingbarriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.