Episode 185

It is no surprise that the institution of marriage is under attack in the West. This is not new, and for many decades now, the biblical tenets of marriage have been questioned, disregarded, eroded, and in some cases, destroyed or forgotten. Divorce lawyers, having made a living off the dissolution of marriage, have now taken to social media to add to the attack, under the guise of “real talk” or helping clients with “reality.” How did we get here? What does the Bible say about marriage and how should we regard it? Talk about it? Consider it? Enter it? Maintain it? Is there ever a scenario in which we should end it? In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, recurring guest Pastor Todd takes the time to explain what biblical marriage is and what God says about it. Is it egalitarian or complementarian? Can it be whatever we want it to be, or has God declared the nature of it in His Word? Furthermore, is that word still applicable in 2024? Join us as we both remember and discover the truth of this foundational institution, and what we can do today to uphold it.

[Pastor Todd]

In the eyes of God, we’re completely equal. My wife is a lot smarter than me. My wife is a lot more talented than me, but my wife willingly submits to me and my leadership of the home. And it’s a great demonstration of what Christ did when he submitted himself for the cross of Calvary.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 185 of the removing various podcasts, and in this episode, we’ll be sitting down with Pastor Todd to discuss the biblical definition of marriage.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Pastor Todd, it is indeed a pleasure. Welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Pastor Todd]

It is a great privilege to be back with you guys tonight.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Well, let’s jump right into it. Let’s start with something that should be easy, but I think it’s kind of difficult in today’s world. What is the biblical definition of marriage?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, we would start with Genesis Chapter 2. And God’s design. He created Adam. And in creation. Everything else had a partner. And God looked at Adam and said that he needed a partner as well. And so God, according to Genesis chapter 2, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Ada. And instead of making Eve out of the dust of the ground like he had made Adam. The Bible says that he took a rib from Adam. And made Eve from that rib. And so it is a wonderful picture of one man and one woman, and God designed it to be for one lifetime in the garden. It wasn’t Adam and multiple wives. It wasn’t Adam. And another man. It was Adam and the Completer that he designed. And Adam called her woman. And so we see that wonderful picture of the creation and the creative work of God there in Genesis, Shepherd 2 and all of that part of Creation is confirmed for us in Matthew Chapter 19, when individuals came to Jesus Christ and confronted him. With a question. The Lord Jesus Christ responded and gave the illustration all the way back to the garden and what God originally intended for marriage.

[Jay]

Pastor, thank you so much for being here with us and for helping us figure out. I hate to say, figure out, but it feels like in this world today, everything needs to be reestablished, redefined, and we just need to hear from the word of God. I see so many people online talking about, you know, they. Of a different idea of marriage, for example, people cohabitating and seeing. There’s no need for marriage. It’s just a very old institution that’s forced upon people today, or people that have whatever weird idea of marriage that they have. Can you tell us in the eyes of God, when does a man and a woman? Married.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, you know some of that answer would probably be a little bit of speculation and some of it would be influenced by where we are today in society as far as our traditional wedding ceremonies that we have here in the United States of America, so. In the eyes of God, I’m not sure that I can be dogmatic and say this is when the marriage is authenticated. As far as God is concerned. But in the United States. Leads. We walk through a process and for the sake of keeping everything in line, we have what is called a religious ceremony. Now it just so happens that the state recognizes that religious ceremony and gives us a certificate that we are. Husband and wife, when we have the ceremony. Now let me give some speculation as to the nature of becoming husband and wife. Some people would say that it is during the vows. And I make a vow before God and the witnesses and state that I’m going to love, honor, respect, and live with and care for this spouse all the days of my life. And so, in a traditional American wedding, we have some type of vowel. Whether it’s memorized or stated and repeated after the pastor or the religious leader. Here. So I think some people would point to the vows. I think some people would point to the matter of physical intimacy and the culmination of their connection. So they’re connected spiritually, they’re connected emotionally. And then biblically, the culmination of them being one flesh is. That aspect of physical intimacy, and so, you know, biblically, we lay a foundation of their bonded spiritually. They’re bonded emotionally, and then they’re bonded physically, and that bond physically is a bond that I’m only to have with one person. And so the world really has turned that whole bonding process upside down and they bond with someone physically and then. Before they even know each other’s names or get to know each other’s past or families or anything like that, they’re breaking up. And so just from the standpoint of my aspect of it. When I participated in a wedding ceremony, I believe that that couple is united together in matrimony when they make that vow before Almighty God and in the eyes of the witnesses, and again in today’s climate, we have a marriage certificate that is given out by the government. Obviously, I don’t think that that’s always been the case, because I believe that marriage is primarily in the eyes of God. But once government was ordained, it does help us to have a governing body that details for us that this man is with this woman. And obviously God doesn’t want divorce. But when divorce comes, we need some authentic way to tell. This man is with this woman, or he’s no longer with this woman, or she’s no longer with him. And so. Obviously in our day and time, the government is involved, whether we like it or not.

[MCG]

Right. Let me tack on to that and even Fred expand that with another question, Pastor. Because when Jenna got married way back in 2013 in Florida, their procedure then was that we had to go to the clerk or whatever the case may be, got the license. Both of us has a sign. Stuff like that. Then we have to get someone who has the power in the state of Florida to declare us husband and wife and then both of us have to sign those papers. And the pastor had to sign those and. Two witnesses as assigned a dead. I think we had within a week of all that to return that to the state of Florida for them to actually stamp it, send us back, and also send us a certificate. It so happened that we got married and I forgot to mail that back to Florida. Well, we had our home in in Florida, but I forgot to mail it in until about 2-3 days in our honeymoon. So I guess the question is, what role should government play in marriage? But you know, thinking about the fact that, hey, when are we married inside of God? So was she and I married those three days that I didn’t tell the state of Florida that we actually had been married.

[Pastor Todd]

Yes, I believe so, because I believe you went through again the process of committing yourself to each other and vows. And then it is the next and final consummation of physical intimacy. And so all those ingredients are found in the Book of Genesis. You know, God brought the woman to the man. And again, they’re the only human beings at the time. But it was very clear that God had made E4. Adam and we could exist in a world where the government doesn’t do anything related to marriage because marriage is created by God, designed by God, directed by God. And so much of what the government does in their participation in this matter is solely for keeping track of who gets what tax write off, you know. And so if you ask me, Pastor could and let me go back and just say this. I had a couple that came to me one time. And they said that they did not want a marriage license, they wanted to stay off the. I’ll call it the grid. And so they wanted to get married in the eyes of God, but they did not want to go through the process of a marriage certificate, marriage ceremony or, I mean a marriage certificate and a marriage license from the government. It didn’t wind up that I did their wedding. There was other conflicting things, and so I wasn’t part of their wedding, but. Technically, because marriage is created by God, and God brings a man to a woman, I don’t technically have to have a piece of paper from the government to tell me I can marry someone or not marry them. I’m mentioning that because it’s important for us to understand. That the day may come that the government is trying to force me to do all kinds of marriages. And that might violate what I can absolutely do from a biblical standpoint. And so if the government stepped in and said if you marry anyone, you have to marry everyone, and I would have to then say no, I’m not doing that. And so if that were to happen across the Board for Fundamental Bible believing preachers. Then does that mean that we never pertained in a wedding ceremony again? Again, most people probably want a marriage license because. They want to have it identified as they are husband and wife and there’s so many different things that pertain to that in the world. Once you become husband and wife with a marriage certificate, it affects your driver’s license, it affects your passport, it affects your taxes, it affects your last name, it affects, you know. Depending upon your place of employment, it can affect your place of employment. There’s just so many different angles for it from a civil standpoint, but when we boil it all back down to Genesis chapter 2, it’s one man and one woman for one lifetime. In the eyes of. Got. And so that’s what he originally designed. And it’s important to remember, too, that God designed marriage, and he ordained the home long before the government was ordained. So if you said, well, you have to have a government registration or a government license, you have a problem theologically because the home came before the government. And when government was ordained by God in Genesis Chapter 9, after the flood, we’re talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. After Adam and Eve were brought together and made one flesh. So. So. I understand why we have the civil side and the civil involvement, but the bottom line is you’re married in the eyes of God.

[MCG]

Yeah, I’m glad you said that person because that’s where I was going to take the conversation. However, to throw a monkey wrench in your wheel, so to speak, the various adventures in Romans Chapter 13 that we should be obedient to the government. Now, if the government say. Hey, in order to be married you need. To. So to speak, get the license from me and I sign it. They’re not necessarily asking us to disobey our high authority, which is God. So while it may be true what you said about Genesis and being married and without the civil part, shouldn’t obedience to the government also take in the factor here since they’re not acting us? Thin.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, my obedience to government and my honoring authority that’s placed over me is. As long as it’s not in conflict with what God orders me to do, then I honor government. So when government says. We want to be able to keep straight, who’s married to who. And so we ask you to come and get a marriage license and to do these things, to have a marriage license, for example, my wife and I got married many years ago, and there was nothing that the government asked me to do that violated my Christian walk with God. So I couldn’t say to them. Well, you’re asking me to do something I shouldn’t have to do according to biblical precepts. And so we went through the process, and we abided by what they asked for. I’m not saying that the day won’t come, that they won’t bring pressure on us in some way, shape or form. As I’ve already mentioned, I could very easily see them saying to a preacher, if you perform one marriage ceremony for a husband and a wife, it’s just like what happened in Colorado with the cake baking.

[MCG]

Right.

[Pastor Todd]

And I could see them saying the same thing to pastors. And saying if you marry anyone you have to marry everyone and that’s where I would obviously take a step back from doing either any ceremonies. Or doing the types of ceremonies that would be. Ordained by government. But you know, even in saying that, I mean that hasn’t happened. And to my knowledge, it hasn’t happened anywhere in the world. So there’s still at least a little bit of respect for the ability for a pastor. To say no in certain types of scenarios, they still respect the religious side of things. So. Let me also say this a well known pastor has said at different times. That one of the most troubling things that he’s had in all of his years of ministry is doing weddings. And he said, I don’t know if you realize this or not, but he said I could be a great pastor and never perform one. Thing. And so it’s not as though it is a mandate to us. It’s not like there’s some passage in the scripture in Titus Chapter 3 or First Timothy Chapter, Titus chapter two or three or first Timothy, Chapter 3, where it says the office of a Bishop is demanded to do every wedding that comes to him.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

Right.

[Pastor Todd]

You. Know. So it’s a part of what we do because we’re ordained, but I don’t know that it is a mandated part by Almighty God. Now if the couple wants to honor God. God, then I believe it is a blessing when they present to all of the people that come to the wedding a unified front to honor and glorify Jesus Christ. And I think a part of that is having a preacher share the truth at the wedding, both of salvation and then of what? Brings them together as husband and wife.

[MCG]

Alright, I’m gonna throw one more to you, pastor, because I grew up in the Caribbean, as you know, and especially the rest of Arians in the islands. They will a lot of times will will call it shack up, but they will say. Hey. This is my. My wife. They went through no formal processes. Of course they don’t go to churches and stuff like that, but they will consider their partner and some of them. I know many of them who have been with the same woman for years, had family and grown and everything, and they referred to me as their wife. And of course, I’m sure you have known enough people in the US have seen. Up to mentally where people decide they’re going to go and move to the mountains and live away from society and don’t want to have anything as you say off the grid as the couple that came to you are these people married?

[Pastor Todd]

You know, we would have to travel the world. And see every culture and every. The. Possible scenario and in doing that I’m not sure that we could ever be dogmatic.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Pastor Todd]

About, it must be done this way. In other words, wedding ceremonies are different all over the globe, right? But there is a path by which God knows this man, and this woman are together for their lifetime. I have been in remote villages in Tanzania. I’ve been in remote villages in the South Pacific. And I know for a fact that they don’t have a courthouse where they go and get a marriage license, and yet everybody in the village knows. This is the husband and this is the wife and they’re together. When I was in a very remote island nation and we went into a very remote village. A wife’ll husband had passed away. And she was there in mourning and so forth. And in that setting, you don’t necessarily have wedding rings. You don’t necessarily have a wedding certificate, but everybody in that village knew that it was her husband that died.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Pastor Todd]

And everybody around the other villages knew that it was her husband that had. Died. And so people came from all over the region of villages to recognize and to sorrow with her because her husband had passed away. Now, in those kinds of settings, I think we would have to acknowledge that God knows better than we do. And if I was a missionary. Or I was down in like you’re talking about in the Caribbean. I would probably check with whatever the Civil Code is. I would probably then begin to teach in light of a path that abides by both the Civil Code and then, of course the biblical code. And I would seek to help. Each young man and each young woman looked for that one special one that they were going to marry. And so it is amazing at how people come from all different kinds of backgrounds. And all different kinds of marriage patterns. Some people come from a position where they’ve got to give dowries, they come from positions where they’ve got to. It’s an arranged marriage or their spouse is picked. I mean, when we go to the biblical example in Genesis chapter 24, basically when Isaac laid eyes. On. Becca. He was told this is your wife. Well, I’m sure that they had days of celebration, but I don’t see in that process where there was probably any court. Hmm. Or any kind of setting where they went and you know had some kind of civil government approved that they were going to get married. You know, Abraham was a very nomadic person. And so while he would have dwelt in a certain region and everyone would have known him and his wealth and his. Hour when Isaac got married to Rebecca, it was probably recognized by the people around him. And that’s your one man and one woman, you know. And even stating that it just reminded me of if there was any passage in Scripture that might speak to a point in which. God recognizes someone as a spouse. You would possibly go to Genesis and you’d look at Jacob and Leah and Rachel because Jacob fully intended to marry Rachel. And in that setting, however, they did the wedding, there was some ability of Laban to deceive Jacob and dress Leah up, and Jacob did not even realize that it wasn’t Rachel until the next morning. But when he got up the next morning, he wasn’t able to say this is not my wife. I didn’t do vowels with her. This is not my wife. Her name’s not on the marriage certificate. He got up the next morning and he recognized Ohh Lee as my wife. And so he went back to work for Rachel for another extended period of time. So. You know, again, is that hard and fast? Where? There. God is saying they were husband and wife because of the physical intimacy. Again, it’s kind of hard to be dogmatic, but we do have indications from the scriptures that. No matter how remote the setting, no matter what region of the world it’s in, there are definitely biblical principles that apply to all people in all places at all times.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely.

[Pastor Todd]

And so I hope I’m not going down rabbit trails, but you and I could travel the world together and we would find a pretty wide variety of the way that people say this is husband. This is wife, so.

[Jay]

Well, you talk about Biblical principles, Pastor. What about polygamy? Because most people would say, well, polygamy is in the Bible. Isn’t that part of God’s design? What would you say to? Those.

[Pastor Todd]

That’s a great question and that’s something as well when we talk about going around the world, what do you do to straighten that out as a missionary when you come across these mission fields? Where a man has a family in the village where he grew up. And now he works in the city and he has a family. In. That city, so you don’t probably. Solve all of that in one revival meeting night, but you’re trying to get it back to the one man and one woman principle. And if a man is the father of multiple children with multiple people, I believe. That he has a responsibility to all of them in their care. But when you speak about polygamy, yes, there was polygamy in the Bible. We see it in most of the Patriarchs, but that’s all as a result of the sin in the garden, because when we travel away from Adam and Eve and their sin in the garden, the first one. That desire to flaunt his decision making in the face of God was from the line of Cain, and it’s in Genesis Chapter 4, and he said basically he says, I know what God orchestrated with Adam and Eve. But I’m going to choose my own path and the Bible says he chose unto himself 2 wives. And so that’s the first time that we. See that somebody goes outside of the one man and one woman for one lifetime and and makes his own choice. Years ago, I preached a series called Operation Restoration, and in that series the desire was for us to go back and to find the blueprint that God originally. Design. And what would be amazing is if the world would go back and look at the great designer for marriage and if we would restore what he originally intended. However, sin is involved and once sin became involved. You have polygamous relationships, you have divorce and remarriage. You have children by multiple spouses. I mean, you have broken homes, step brothers and sisters, half brothers and sisters. So all of this came about as a result of the sin of mankind now. Praise God that he gives mercy and that he forgives. And so if I’m in one of those positions. My life is not done. My life is not ruined. If I’ve made the mistakes or not done right by my spouse, and I’ve had to pick up the pieces. Praise God that he’s the God of second chances. And so if I come from a broken home, there’s hope in Christ. If I have step children, there’s hope in Christ. If I’ve got a second spouse. There’s hope in Christ, so you can’t go back and change any of those decisions. You just have to work from that day where you are and seek to do right by Christ from that day forward.

[MCG]

Amen. Another testimony of that hope that is in Christ. Our pastor will go into a breaker on the other end will come back. This is the removing various podcast. We’re sitting down with Pastor Todd and we’re talking about the biblical definition of marriage. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

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What about divorced Pastor? Because we are living in a society in a world. Well, maybe not in a world we’ll just say in our society here in. The. United States the divorce rate exceeds 50%. I think the last time I checked it was 57%. I might be wrong on that fact. Check me on that. You know, was divorce part of God’s original plan? It seems that if you put two sinners in a can, divorce seems to be the only option. So it seems to be a given. Sure of divorce. But is that what God initially intended?

[Pastor Todd]

That’s a great question and the answer is, of course, no. He never intended for divorce. He intended for a man to be with his wife until one of them passed away. But because of man’s wickedness in man’s heart. The Bible says that God had Moses write a bill of divorcement, in other words. Man doesn’t do right by his wife and the wife in some cases doesn’t do right by her husband. In order for them to keep things straight, there was a bill of Divorcement that was written. And there’s a lot of different views on why you can get divorced. If you should get divorced. And even within Christianity, there’s a lot of opinions about that process of, well, I don’t like this spouse, so I’ll get out of the marriage and I’ll just get into another marriage. And there’s sadly individuals that will hop from one marriage to another. And I don’t think that’s ever what God intended. Use rightly stated that the average marriage in America today it’s about 50 to 60% that winds up in divorce. But the sad part is that that’s also true in Christian circles, and it’s 50 to 60%. You know, there’s another couple of stats that are also very important to remember because some people say well. When I get married the second time, I’m really gonna do it right, but the stats of divorce after a second marriage are even higher than the 60%. And so if a person gets divorced once, it’s not uncommon for that to be followed up with a second diva. Then the other stat that’s also very sobering is these people that say, well, we’ll live together. And if we live together, we’ll know if we’re compatible. But those people that live together before they get married, their divorce rate is very, very high as well. And so again, all of these things. Work off of what God originally intended. He originally intended for one man and one woman to be together for one lifetime, while sin changed everything. And so while I want to work with my young people and young adults and emphasize to them how important the decision is to get married, I want them to know.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Pastor Todd]

That you need to make this choice wisely and with a multitude of counselors, because whoever you marry once you say I do. And you are married to them. In the eyes of God, that’s God’s best for your life. And so we don’t want to trivialize marriage as though it’s just a different dating relationship. We want them to realize that this is of utmost importance, that you stay single until you find God’s best. And when you find God’s best, you say I do. And you’re with them until the day that one of you pass away. Now, with marriage and with divorce again, as I mentioned, there’s a lot of different views and there are some pastors that they’ve made it very easy for people to get divorced and remarried. There are some denominations that will let men stay in the ministry if they’ve been divorced. They’ll even let women stay in the ministry if they’re divorced. In some circles and everything like that. And so I want to be very careful on the front side. I want to help people pick up the broken pieces if they are divorced, but I want to do all I can on the front. Side to see people marry the right one and plan to be with them until the day that they die and it’s always damaging to both spouses when a divorce occurs. I know that you guys know this analogy, or maybe you’ve heard this analogy, but it’s like taking. 22 by fours. And you nail them together and you glue them together and you use them as a header over top of a doorway or a window. As the construction continues in your house. And so you need to beef up that header. And so you take two boards to make them stronger. So you’ve glued them. You’ve nailed them. You’ve screwed them together, whatever it is. And if the time ever comes that you’re doing demolition and you’re wanting to put in something different to take those two boards apart is going to severely damage or weaken each of those boards from what they once were before they were attached to the other. And so I often used as an illustration. Yeah, you might be able to get the two by fours apart, but in doing all the tearing and scarring and work to get them separated. You’re going to do damage and it’s never going to be quite the same. And so that’s what I want to emphasize to couples that are going to get married, make sure that this is the right one, because the divorce will do great damage to both of you.

[Jay]

Well, we live in a society today where we don’t really need to be that careful. What I mean by that. Is women can go work. We don’t need a man. That’s what they say, right? We don’t need a man. We can go. Work Family Court is amenable to divorce. In fact, it thrives on it. And it’s not a social stigma anymore to be divorced. And you know, we live in 2024. Pastor, why can’t the church keep up with the way things are going now? And do marriage and divorce that way? Why is it such a?

[Pastor Todd]

Big deal. Well, when you look at it scripturally, it’s a big deal. Because the home is the core of everything else in society. So Satan’s desire is to destroy our foundation, and in destroying the foundation which is the husband and wife relationship. In destroying the foundation while we as believers. Are shooting at all the different fruits on the bad tree that flow from the world? Satan has been a master at trying to undermine our foundation, and so he destroys the husband. He destroys the wife, he destroys the children and it causes it to crumble. I don’t know these stats for sure, but you could look these up and you will see that the vast majority of crime is committed by individuals that were raised in broken homes.

[MCG]

MHM.

[Pastor Todd]

And again, it’s not that mom and dad together can stop their kids from being in the criminal element, but it’s just that when you breakdown that husband wife relationship, you really muddle everything else that’s going on in society. And I’m in the process of reading a new book on the husband’s role and leadership. In the home. And it emphasizes that a man has two major responsibilities, love his wife and love his children, and everything else takes a back seat. Not again. I’m not referencing his love for Almighty God. I want everybody to know. That goes without saying. But just to understand. That being a great architect, a great lawyer, a great athlete, a great whatever, you’d fill in the blank for your profession. All of that takes a back seat to the demand that God has on the father of being a loving husband. And being a guiding father. And if I fail in being a loving husband and a guiding father, but I’m succeeding in all the other arenas of life, I might be successful in the eyes of the world. But I’m a failure in the eyes of God. And so this book again that I just started the emphasis. On the husband taking the role and being what God wants him to be in the home, and so I would just challenge everybody that listens to this podcast you might have.

[Pastor Todd]

Some broken parts from the past, and you can’t go back and change those. You might have a divorce. You might be raising stepchildren. You might be raising half siblings. You might not have done well in the first marriage, but wherever you are today. To vow to Almighty God that from this day forward you will seek to. 2. Do right by God and do right by the spouse that you have and the children that you’ve been blessed with, and that is a principle that applies to all people in all places, at all times. If I’m on the mission field and I’m teaching people in a remote village, I’m going to tell them.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely.

[Pastor Todd]

Identify your spouse. Care for your children, and from this day forward, clean up. The mess that’s been made. And do right by God. From this day forward. And that’s true no matter where God would take me in preaching and or ministry.

[Jay]

I’m so thankful that you said that, pastor. I hope everyone listening realizes that the way that I posed the question to pastor doesn’t mean that I believe and think that way, but I’m completely surprised when I go online and I hear people the way that they talk about marriage or that preparation for marriage. That’s literally how they think they talk about marriage. With the, it’s almost like they’re going into marriage with the. The intention or with the expectation that it’s going to fall apart, so instead of going into marriage dedicated to a person committed to glorifying God, committed to making it work, they’re going into marriage with ideas of prenups and all of these different things that are meant to protect you and your assets after the apparently inevitable. Fall or or destruction of that marriage and I’m just blown away not just by people talking like that, but that it’s encouraged. By lawyers and so-called marriage counselors and all these different people who seem to have your best interests at heart. But the way that they approach marriage just seems completely unbiblical and completely worldly, and I’m glad that you put it out there that we really need to be approaching it from a biblical perspective.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. I know. As I mentioned earlier, we got married in the state of Florida. You were living in the state of Florida at the time, but I wasn’t. And because I wasn’t live in the state of Florida and we were getting pre marriage counseling, not in the state of Florida. In order to save some money, they said we either had to get someone to come to us in the state of Florida. I think if I’m memory serves me correctly or they gave me a booklet that I have to read and say yes, I read this book and the first, maybe chapter or whatever case maybe first couple of pages was basically congratulations on. Your marriage and all that stuff coming, marriage and. The stuff, but literally the rest of the book was what happened in the case of divorce. What happened to children? How much money, spousal support and supporting your kids and all that stuff. It was all about almost preparing you for divorce rather than preparing you for marriage. So I definitely see what you’re saying to the government. Marriage is a contract. I think basically when it comes. To if you look at it from a biblical perspective, as we’re doing here, I think marriage is a covenant.

[Jay]

If I could say too, I think maybe I’m being a little too critical of government here, but it seems like the government marriage is also big business. Because the divorce lawyers that are brave enough to go. Online and speak.

[MCG]

Well, I don’t know the law of our.

[Jay]

Government, though. No, no, no, no. When they’re talking about family court and when they’re talking about what actually happens when families fall apart, it seems almost in some ways that the government incentivizes the destruction or the dissolution of marriage. And so of course, we know that the devil is the Prince of the power of the air. This is his system. And so it only makes sense that government would have. You know, like an interest in the dissolution of marriage or maybe I’m being too conspiratorial tinfoil hat.

[MCG]

Here I know men are severely.

[Jay]

Severely impacted negatively.

[MCG]

She did really badly in these courts. But yeah. Do you have anything after that before we move on to the next question, Pastor?

[Pastor Todd]

Yeah, I mean, just to emphasize, you don’t have to look far to see in the entertainment world how the Hollywood examples. Cheapen.

[MCG]

Oh yeah.

[Pastor Todd]

Marriage in the eyes of all of society, and so in recent days. Individuals have gotten married, they’ve gotten divorced, they’ve married somebody else. And then they get another divorce, and then they go back and they marry the first one that they’re married. They’re married for another couple of years and they get divorced again. I’m not a genius on everything that is in the mind. God. But I know this. That is not what he intended. Right? And I have met individuals that have been married 5 * 6 times and I know this for a. Fact. That is not what God intended. There’s two things that I do think are interesting, where the government realizes that.

[MCG]

Yep.

[Pastor Todd]

Crime is primarily committed by individuals that come from broken homes, and what I find is interesting is that in many states they give you a discount if you will get marriage counseling before you get your marriage license, which is interesting. And the second thing is they put a cap on how many times you can get remarried. And so even secular man realizes at some point in time we’re going to say no, this is not going to continue. Now I know that they put the cap way too high. I get that.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Pastor Todd]

But I’m just saying that, you know, we live in a sin fallen world and at the same time we’re in a sin fallen world. God is the author of forgiveness. And so we as past. Others on the front side want to encourage everyone to do it right the first time, and it should be the only time unless the spouse passes away. With that in mind, I’ve participated in probably 3 or 4 dozen weddings in my time in the ministry and so far all of the weddings that I participated in. Everybody is still together and that’s over a period of three plus decades of being involved with weddings. Now that doesn’t mean that I’m a genius or that I’ve only married people that you know are not sinful in and don’t have problems in their marriage. It just means that I’m trying to be very helpful to them in understanding that the best time to break up is before you ever say I do.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Pastor Todd]

So if you need to break up, break up before you get engaged. If you have to break up and you’re only engaged, then break up the engagement. That’s very difficult, but it’s better than marrying the wrong. I really believe that the vast majority of our problems in marriage come because people married someone they should have never married. Now, I would never state that publicly in a message because that’s hard for people to hear. But I’ve observed in the ministry through these years that so often the hardships and the hassles and everything like this are there. Because they frankly married someone they should have never married. And so we want to again help them on that front end. But when people do go through the process of divorce, then we want to help them pick up the pieces and do right from there. Some of my dearest friend. Ends have suffered through miserable divorces and you know, I don’t think God is done with them. I don’t think God hates them. God hates divorce, just like he hates drunkenness. Just like he hates adultery. Or, you know, murder. He hates sin. But God is there. And boy, praise the Lord, he forgives. And if we will do right, God is there to help us pick up the pieces and to help us do right.

[MCG]

You’re definitely what’s your opinion to the statement that all divorce is the failure of the man?

[Pastor Todd]

I mean, that’s pretty tough to say. I mean, you know, I’ve seen marriages that break up and it’s perhaps 70% one spouse or the other 30% on the other, I’ve seen 6040. Primarily it’s 5050 and there’s give and take from each spouse that needs to be there if they’re going to. Survive. Bottom line is, I’ve counseled with a lot of people and I’ve interacted with a lot of people through couples conferences and everything like this. I’ve never seen a marriage that was 100% one person and 0% the other person. The problem in marriage counseling is that everybody wants to fix what their spouse is doing wrong and nobody comes into counseling and says look in my heart, see what I’m not doing right, help me fix it and help me make it right because I want to be the best wife for the best husband that I can be. And so that is a real difficulty. Most people come into that time of counseling and it’s like Pastor, you really need to counsel us because my husband needs it or you really need to counsel us because my wife needs it. And what’s interesting is when I go into counseling, so far as I know to this point in my. Time nobody has ever paid me for the counseling, and so I’m not on either side. You know, it’s not like the husband gave me 50 bucks. You know the counsel against whatever the wife is doing or the wife paid me to counsel against what the husband’s doing. I’m in it for the success of their marriage. And so if they would come to me with honesty. And just say this is what I’m not doing right in the marriage. We would have the possibility of really being a help to them. But most come in, and each one of them as pure as the wind driven snow. And they’ve never said anything. They’ve never done anything against their spouse. And so when they come into counseling, they want the preacher to think they’re the perfect individual and the other one has all the faults. Well, I mean, look at the marriage of Jacob and Rachel and Leah or. No, no, no, I’m sorry. Let’s go back. Look at the marriage of Isaac and Rebecca. Isaac could have been mad at Rebecca because she was so partial to everything that Jacob did. But Rebecca could be mad at Isaac for how partial he was for everything that he saw did. And so if Isaac and Rebecca went to marriage counseling, I’m sure that they would tell the preacher the other one is the one who’s really messed up our home and marriage.

[MCG]

Hmm. I’ll pass the next time Jay and I are in your office for any marriage counseling. I’ll slip you $100 under the table.

[Pastor Todd]

Talking about now, that sounds good. That sounds good. You know, listen, you never go into the marriage counseling with the design. Higher to see the marriage break up, but it is almost to the point now where people come to me.

[MCG]

Right.

[Pastor Todd]

And they only do it because they want to be able to say, well, we went to the preacher and he couldn’t even help us.

[MCG]

Yes.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Pastor Todd]

And so, you know, it’s almost like they’ve already retained a lawyer, and then they come to me and they say, hey, Pastor, can you help us? And when they come for the marriage counseling, they never tell me everything up front. They always. Nobody ever reveals all that they’ve done until they have to, and nobody ever reveals what they’ve done until they have to.

[MCG]

Right.

[Pastor Todd]

So if I’ve robbed 11 banks and you catch me at the 11th bank, how many banks have I robbed? One. All right, if you find out that I’ve robbed others, then that’s fine. But that’s what happens so often with husbands and wives that go in for counseling. I say to my wife all the time that if she left me tomorrow, I could write the law. As to why she left me because I’m a Sinner. Yeah. What she has to endure being my spouse is tough, but praise the Lord that with the Holy Spirit’s help, she stayed with me all these years. And I’m serious. I’m not just saying it. I’m serious that if she said tomorrow, Todd, I just can’t take it anymore.

[MCG]

Amen.

[Pastor Todd]

I’d be like, let me make the list for you on hard. It is to be my spouse how difficult that is. But praise the Lord.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely.

[Pastor Todd]

She’s been a far better spouse to me than I’ve ever been to her.

[Jay]

I’m so glad you mentioned that, Pastor, because there’s a scripture that actually talks about this. Hebrews 1317 says obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief, for that is unprofitable for you I’ve had. Friends that have gone through divorce and what you say is very true. It’s always after they’ve made-up their minds. They’ve already got a lawyer in place and they’re going to the pastor or to the counselor just as. Just a hey, you know, can you help us or I’m just doing this because I need you to see how bad he is to me or how bad she is to me. And that seems to be completely contrary to what the scriptures say. The scriptures say that we should be. Maybe we have our ecclesiology wrong where we feel like we shouldn’t be coming to one another and trying to. Work out these sin issues that hamper our marriages or hamper our own personal growth that affect our children, etcetera. But then when everything blows up, that’s when we talk to the preacher or that’s when we talk to the counselor and it seems to be backward. It should be beforehand where you see these things creating a problem. Them that’s where we need the one anothers and we need to be submitting ourselves to the Council and the leadership of our pastors in order to prevent the breakup of the marriage. It just seems like perhaps a wholesale Christians aren’t really getting that message.

[Pastor Todd]

Let me just say it to you from a broader perspective of observation from years in the ministry. Couples and families that are consistently in church. And being fed the word of God. Couples that have some type of personal devotions may not be perfect, but they have some kind of outside. Devotional. Investment. When those couples are fed consistently, spiritually, either through personal devotions and also the Ministry of the Pulpit, they may come to me and say, Pastor, we’ve got a disagreement here. Could you help mediate what we should do? And I find that working with those kinds of scenarios is rarely the case.

[MCG]

It’s.

[Pastor Todd]

Because we violate Scripture all the time and let the sun go down upon our wrath. Ephesians chapter 4. And night after night after night, we build up anger against our spouse. And then we say the spouse is selfish. The spouse then becomes angry. The cells then has some kind of reactive part and it just continues to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And we come to the place where we throw up our hands and we just say, see, there’s no help and there’s no hope. I got to get a divorce. And what God is saying to us is. Keep short accounts husbands submit to God. Wives submit to your husbands children submit to your parents. And it goes to that part that you just mentioned, Hebrews 1317. That’s the verse that I had to write many times as a child in the home that I grew up in, everyone that has oversight of us will give an account for how we were as their responsibility. So I as a pastor. Will give an account for all of the Members in. My flaw I as a son will give an account for how I was as a son, but my dad will give an accounting and my dad will give an accounting for how I was as a son and I’ll give an accounting for how I was with my boys and so forth. And so every single one of us have oversight and we have to obey. And. Somebody’s going to be given an account for how we did. And so it’s important for us to be submissive not only to God but also submissive. To those that he has placed in leadership over us.

[MCG]

Definitely. You know, I had a friend that went to a divorce and he was closer to me and Jay was closer to the Y. So it was, you know, family. We are both friends. And he said, hey, you know, MCG, can you come to court and, you know, give a testimony of? Me as a father because apparently the wife was trying to get full custody of the kids.

[Pastor Todd]

Yeah.

[MCG]

And I’m like, I can’t do that, you know, because my wife is your now exchange wife, their friends. And you know, you’re forcing me to place aside or whatever the case may be. So I said to him, hey, you know what? What have you done to, you know, with your wife again, rather than going through this? And that person caught me off. They have never spoken to me. Since. Even if I have reached out and tried to reach out, the last thing they said to me the last time I reached out was who is this? And when I said, hey, it’s MCG. Just cut me off and I figured they blocked my number because nothing goes through anymore. So you know, speaking to the fact that it always until the last minute because even though we were friends, I didn’t know that.

[Jay]

Yeah, it was complete surprise.

[MCG]

It was so drastic until everything was kind of, you know, in the open and they’re living in different homes. So yeah, this is definitely one of those things that I guess is just very personal in this part of the world. Those kind of things. They don’t tell people unless you have to. So.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, and that’s part of the trouble because my wife and I have been presented with that exact scenario where the lawyer for one spouse called us and said I need you to testify and the lawyer for another spouse called us and said I need you to testify and the bottom line is we do not know what goes on in the four walls of a home.

[Jay]

That’s true.

[Pastor Todd]

And so it’s impossible for. They beyond what I’ve observed. Well, most of my observances. Is are in the setting of a church and how many people really reveal themselves as they really are in a church setting, and so it’s almost impossible for me to ever say yes, this husband was a perfect husband and. He absolutely never did anything wrong, or this wife was a perfect wife and she never did anything wrong, and so she deserves to have the kids, or he deserves to have the kids. We have been confronted with that on numerous occasions. And we have always declined because we do not actually know and what’s amazing is in many of these scenarios, they present themselves as being the perfect parents. And so publicly they have this persona of perfection and then it’s revealed that they’re getting a divorce. And to my knowledge, I’ve not yet seen. The wife, who has left the perfect husband husband who has left the perfect wife. I’ve never had someone come into my office for counseling and say. My husband meets every single one of my needs and he is the epitome of Ephesians chapter 5. He, as Christ loves the church and I’m leaving him. You know, I’ve never had a guy come in and say my wife is a proverbs 31 woman and she fulfills completely the role of submission according to Ephesians Chapter 5, and I’m leaving her. It’s never happened because if we are loving our spouses as we’re supposed to, it would be the wife is queen and. Is in such a wonderful position, and it’s a God-given position. That there’s no way that they’d ever get out of that and think to themselves that there be anything better than that God-given spouse.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Why do you think that biblical marriage is under attack so much in society, Pastor?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I mean, I think it goes right to the roots of satanic. Opposition. I mean, Satan could not affect God in heaven. And so his next best chance is to affect that which presents Christ to the world, and that’s to occur within the marriage bond and within the home. I mean, the very first way that I’m to know of my creator and of the Heavenly Father is through watching my own earthly father and. The very way that I’m to be acknowledging that Christ was such a wonderful, submissive son is watching the marriage relationship and a husband and a wife that, while they’re equal in the eyes of God, a wife willingly submits herself to her own husband. And so all of that is intertwined with the. Picture of God the son, Christ and his bride. I mean it’s interwoven. And so Satan, his master plan is to destroy as much as he possibly can of what God created.

[MCG]

Yeah. You know, in 2015, the Supreme Court opened what many call the Pandora Box and allow same-sex marriages in this country. And a lot of folks say, you know, hey, is that gonna end there? And I think it is in either New York or California now, where you can actually have, what, 3 parents and the birth certificate. No, that’s true. In the UK, I think that’s true in the UK as well, you can have three parents. Do you think that attack is going to continue to go where we’re going to see, maybe polygamy being legalized at least after three couples? Or where does this end do you believe?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I believe that Romans Chapter 1 tells. Us. That there’s really no telling where it all ends. The further that man gets away from his knowledge and his recognition of the creator, the worse that it’s gonna get. And so when the Supreme Court stepped in and overruled.

[MCG]

All right.

[Pastor Todd]

The vote of every single state that marriage was to be between one man and one woman. If you don’t have that as your baseline, then everything else should be fine. So when you go beyond one man and one woman, and that’s your marriage bond. If I was a polygamist, I would certainly say. That what I’m doing is OK let me use this word. God said that marriage is based upon true. The world has shifted us to saying that marriage is based upon love.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Pastor Todd]

So as soon as the world convinced themselves that marriage is based upon love. Then you have to Katie bar the door. There’s no end.

[MCG]

Hmm.

[Pastor Todd]

Now, there may be some things that we just say, well, that’s not what we want. And so we’re going to frown. Upon it. But I mean, what’s to say that if it’s based upon love and it’s two men and one woman or two women and one man, which we’ve seen?

[MCG]

MHM.

[Pastor Todd]

I read an article where a lady was trying to marry a tree. She dogged past this tree every single day and she’s in love with this tree, and so she wanted to have marriage with this tree. But you and I say, well, that’s crazy. That’s crazy. But listen to me carefully. If it’s based upon.

[Jay]

Ohh my word.

[Pastor Todd]

Love. Then at some point in time, somebody’s going to come forward and say, I love this adolescent and because I love this adolescent, you can’t stop me from marrying them.

[Jay]

MHM.

[Pastor Todd]

They’re going to come forward and they’re going to say something like this, they’re going to say, well, I love this animal and you can’t stop me from marrying this. There’s no end. As man gets further away from truth. And that’s why our society. Piety was correct as long as it based marriage upon the truth of Scripture and the judeo-christian Society. But as soon as the Supreme Court stepped in and said no, we’re gonna allow marriage to be based upon the word love. Now you have all these television shows that are, you know, we’ve left the husband and wife. Dynamic and now anything goes in marriages that they present to us from Hollywood and television.

[MCG]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Pastor, you mentioned that one of the reasons that marriage is being attacked is because there’s the satanic element. He’s going after the image of God, he’s going after anything that glorifies God. And so marriage, of course, being one of those things he wants to destroy. So in what way, then this biblical marriage demonstrate the gospel? What is it about marriage? Biblical marriage that demonstrates the gospel that demonstrates the heart of God to the world? What connection is there, and what does that have to do with the gospel altogether?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I think a lot of it goes back to what I spoke on just a few minutes ago is. God the Father loved us so much that he gave his only begotten son and in giving his son, he gave us his very best. Well, the Bible says that as a husband, that’s how I’m supposed to be with my wife. I am supposed to give to my wife all of myself. In fact, the word love that’s used in if he’s chapter 5 is the same word for love that’s used in John 316. So it is the godly demonstration of self sacrifice. God gave his very best when he gave his son. A husband is to give himself holy to his wife. No reservations is supposed to be loving her in a totally sacrificial way. And then you have again the connection with if the wife truly submits herself to her husband, which is not popular in today’s world. Climate if a woman submits to a husband, they will rail against her. But the truth of the matter is that she’s representing Christ and Christ. When the garden and the Bible says he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation and took upon himself the form of a servant in Philippian Shepherd too.

[MCG]

MHM.

[Pastor Todd]

And the wife can demonstrate that kind of Christ’s likeness in the eyes of God. We’re completely equal. My wife is a lot smarter than me. My wife is a lot more talented than me, but my wife. Submits to me and my leadership of the whole. And it’s a great demonstration of what Christ did when he submitted himself for the cross of Calvary. And he submitted himself to the will of the father. So there’s all different kinds of overlapping theological examples. And if you can destroy and undermine the home and the husband wife relationship. You can destroy people’s thinking about the Heavenly Father. You can destroy people’s thinking about the Lord Jesus Christ, and you can certainly destroy how a child would view the love and concern and even the punishment that the father, the Heavenly Father would give out because an earthly father is so abused. All of those areas. If that makes sense.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Well past that. At least. It seems like we have one thing in common. Both of us married up big time.

[Pastor Todd]

I would completely concur. I told my wife if she ever leaves me, I’m going with her.

[MCG]

All right. Alright, Pastor, thank you so much for joining us on the removing battery this podcast.

[Pastor Todd]

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. And I pray that it will help someone that is a listener in the very near future.

[MCG]

All right.

[Jay]

This is the removing barriers. Podcast If the podcast or the blog were a blessing to you, leave us a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don’t forget to share the podcast with your friends, Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us, to support this podcast, or to learn more about Removing Barriers, go to removing barriers.net. This has been the Removing Barriers podcast we attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.