Episode 177

Perhaps most people paying close objective attention to fatal police interactions with black citizens would roll their eyes whenever Benjamin Crump gets involved, but today we will discuss two such incidents where the officers involved may actually be wrong and Crump’s involvement, while not ideal, is understandable. In May and July of 2024 respectively, Roger Fortson and Sonya Massey were killed in their interactions with the police. What were the circumstances that led to their deaths? Were the killings justified? In today’s episode of the Removing Barriers Podcast, we will discuss these questions and more, never forgetting that Fortson and Massey were both souls for which Christ died.

[MCG]

I’m confused. What was it that Sonya said or did she do? They escalate to grievous bodily injury or deadly force.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG. And we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 177 of the removing barriers podcasts. And in this episode, we’ll be looking at the shooting incident of Roger Fortson and Sonya Massey.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to: removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things, removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Alright, Jay, let’s start with Roger Fortson, who was Roger Fortson?

[Jay]

As far as we can tell, Roger Fortson was a United States airmen active duty serving in the US Air Force. He was shot and killed by police officer in his apartment in believe it’s Fort Walton Beach, FL. And the deputy’s name was Eddie Duran. What had happened was that the Police Department received a call for a disturbance in his apartment. It sounded like it was a possible domestic abuse case. The police officer arrived, listened at the door for a few minutes before banging on it and identifying himself as police. When Roger Fortson opened the door, he had a gun in his right hand, pointed to the ground and his left hand was up in a non defensive sort of placating manner. But the deputy shot him and then told him to put his gun down. The responding officer was not Black and Roger Fortson was black, and so naturally, this is a subject and a topic that the groups that are for police reform or police abolition or black lives matter have taken up arms on. And that was Roger Ford’s. And if I’m not mistaken. He was special forces in the Air Force as well, so he wasn’t your average service member. He was distinguished in that particular sense. And so many people feel that his killing was completely unjustified and that the deputy overreacted. And was 100% at fault. The family has retained. I believe it’s Benjamin Crump in order to. Yep. They maintained the BLM lawyer of notoriety, Benjamin Crump, to defend them in this case and to bring the deputy to justice. And as of now, the deputy has been fired from that Police Department.

[MCG]

He has been formally charged as well. Hmm. Yeah. So and May 3rd, 2024. I think it’s pronounced, Okaloosa County deputy responded to a disturbance call to Ohh. You can say to Roger’s apartment, but it is believed maybe the disturbance was not from his apartment was coming from different apartment. Apparently Roger was on her FaceTime call with his girlfriend and I haven’t seen any evidence to show that. He and his girlfriend was in an argument even over FaceTime, and that would have been a really serious shouting match if they can hear him shouting and hear her shouting through. Through the iPad to the iPhone, iPad or whatever I device he was using. Yeah. So there was no disturbances. Another family maintained that the deputy or the Sheriff’s Department went to the wrong apartment. The Sheriff’s Department seemed like they maintaining that. They went to the right apartment. Which two things can be true at the same time? Because if you watch the video, their apartment.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

Representative told Sheriff that is the disturbance is coming from 1401, which they said Perdue went to 1401. Apparently he was coming from a different apartment when he got there. Via his Vatican video, you didn’t hear anything at all. He wrapped and he didn’t announce who he was, and he waited. Then he walked from in front of the door. Then he went back and he rapped again. And then he shouted Sheriff’s Office and then kind of moved himself from in front of the door again. Then he went and rapped again. And. Repeated himself. As he said, Roger opened the door with a donate his hand. Then but notedly it was pointing down.

[Jay]

To the floor. It wasn’t even at low ready it was.

[MCG]

To the floor.

[Jay]

Down toward the floor.

[MCG]

Right. So he was in his hand, pointed onto the floor, and of course, the deputy immediately pulled his service weapon fired at Raja, several time hitting him in, sent a mass, then ordered him to drop the gun. Which Roger said, you know, I no longer have it. It’s over there. And of course, he eventually succumbed to his wounds. Yeah, according to Roger, girlfriend. Roger looked to the peep hole and did not see the officer. So he was believing that he was a break in. So he I mean himself now with all that in play here, all the facts that we have to us do you think that the officer is at fault in this circumstance?

[Jay]

In my opinion, I’m going to have to go with yes on this one. Now I would like to. Preface that by say. Being the woman that was the representative for the apartment complex, she herself said that she was there at that apartment on the outside, obviously, and she could hear perhaps two weeks prior. She could hear the sounds of yelling and shouting and profanity and things that would indicate domestic abuse. From that particular apartment, but anyone that’s lived in an apartment complex knows. That you can’t be 100% certain that the noise you hear is coming from that particular apartment because walls are paper thin in apartment complexes. It’s possible that the noise you hear is coming from a different apartment from the one that you’re standing in front of. Now, granted, that also means that there are times when you stand in front of the door and what you hear is what’s going on. On the inside, but in light of the fact that we are no longer a society that really knows our neighbors. We are no longer a society in which people know one another, particularly in an apartment complex type situation. It seems unwise to me to take the word of one person as the definitive of what was going on, and even if she said that she heard domestic disturbances for the past several weeks and that it was really bad. And that things were terrible because that’s exactly what she was telling him as she was escorting him to where apartment 4th. You know, one was, even if that were the case, you as the office. Sir took the time to listen through the door before you knocked and you didn’t hear anything. There’s no reason. It seems to me for you to assume that there’s some sort of a nefarious or deadly or threatening activity going on on the inside. It’s clear in the video. That when Roger Fortson opened the door that the officer shot 1st and then shouted commands, especially because the weapon that Roger Fortson was carrying. In his hand was pointed at the ground and his other hand was up in a placating sort of manner. It just seems to me unreasonable to go immediately to shooting and then shouting out orders. Even if you had said drop the gun, drop the gun and then shot, I would probably would have understand that understood that. But he shot first when the weapon was pointed down. Now I also want to say that obviously. If the police come to your door, it’s not wise to answer with a gun in your hand. But there is no reason for us to believe that Roger Fortson understood that there is a police officer at his door and that it wasn’t just someone that was shouting. Hey, police with the intention of you opening your door so that they can bum rush you and rob you cause that. Happens as well, the officer deliberately. Positioned himself so that he could not be seen through the peep hole, and so I could see from Roger Fortson’s perspective how you hear someone banging on your door. Hey, police, open the door and you don’t see anyone. There’s probably a good reason to believe this might be some sort of setup or someone pretending or impersonating police so that they can. Put you in a vulnerable position to where you open your door, and then they rush inside. I can understand why he would have the weapon in his hand, but I also understand the perspective of people that say, hey, you know, if the police are identifying themselves, whether by speech or you can see them through the people, then you should not come to the door with a gun. But as I said before, the officer shot first. Literally. Roger Fortson opened the door and shots rang out immediately. I can’t see how that was in any way justified or called for.

[MCG]

Yeah, this is a tough one for me and I’m going to make arguments for both sides.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

So let’s start with Deputy Eric Aiden, our former deputy Eric Aiden. Alright. So I think there’s a lot of things that are exhilarate to this that may come out in court or may not be even be relevant. The fact that Roger looked to the people and didn’t see him is auxiliary, to be honest. You can understand based upon. Officer safety why he would not want to stand directly in front of the door at that point he become a fatal funnel and then he can also understand Officer Eric Aiden’s mindset that he’s going to a domestic disturbance or possible domestic violence situation if he acts most police officers, if you Google it. Hmm. Traffic stops and domestic. Violence, disturbance or whatever you want to call it. It’s probably among the two or definitely among the top five most dangerous call a police officer can make because you never know what to expect. They’re always different. So based on what he knew, based upon the fact that the apartment representative told him to go to 14 or one, I think it is. And he went to 14 or. One in his mind, he’s at the right place. He has the right person, and this person answered the door with a gun in his hand. So can Eric Aiden make a valuable point that he was in fear for his life. Because remember, that’s the standard for for use of deadly force. Can he make a valid argument?

[Jay]

Deadly, yeah.

[MCG]

A reasonable argument that the reasonable person would believe that, hey, I was in fear for my life. I think he can. Unfortunately, my heart goes out to the family, but unfortunately I think former deputy Eric agent can make a case that he was in fear for his life because Roger did answer the door with a gun.

[Jay]

So.

[MCG]

In his hand. Granted, yes, it was pointed fully down to the ground, but it will take Roger less than a split second to rise that up and inflict a shot that will be deadly in center mass or infect previously body harm on the officer with that gun. So even though the gun was pointed straight down. In no time that gun can come up on fire. You know, and just Google it. Go to YouTube. There’s a bunch of people out there that have answered door with guns in their hand. When police officer and gotten shot and some of them have died too. And it doesn’t matter the race. I remember seeing one with the police officer at this point was at the wrong home and then we can argue whether that he was at the right home.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Roger Fortson, but I’m going to assume he was at the right home because the apartment ladies had told him to go to 1401. He went to 1401. In his mind, he was at the right. This officer I’m talking about went to the wrong home. Same domestic disturbance call. He went to the wrong home was beating on the door, was using flashlight flashing into the house. The home owner got out of bed believing someone was trying to break in, grab his gun. And as he was coming down the stairs, the police officer saw him coming down the stairs with a gun in his hand. And shot him. From his porch. True. You know these homes where the front door. There’s glass at the two sided front door. He has one of those, and so you can see directly in the House and you can see the stairs. The police after shot him, shot him in the leg. He lived but. And I think he did get some money through lawsuit just for that. But I’m just saying if the police officers that you do and you’re going to.

MHM. MHM.

[MCG]

Approach your door with a gun in your hand. Or whatever the case may be, there’s a very, very high possibility going to be shot. Sure, I remember there’s the other one where this guy, he answered the door to police. Officer, this was a genuine domestic violence situation. And he was standing in the door talking to the police officers. And he had one hand behind his back with a gun in his hand.

[Jay]

The hand behind his back had the gun. OK, so he was hiding the gun.

[MCG]

Yeah, he has the one hand. I guess you can say he was. Yes, he was hiding the gun. OK, but some people believe that he answered the door. We know intention to harm the police. So he hide the gun behind his back and was talking. To them, he happened to lean forward a little bit on one of the officers, saw the gun and pulled his gun out and shot him. I’m just saying their stories after stories of the stories out there of people who have been to the door with a gun in their hand have gotten shot. Unfortunately, Roger is not unique in this situation, right? So does Officer Eric. Biden has a valid point in court, I think so I think there will be hard press. Define 12 reasonable people who would not have a reasonable doubt to say, hey, yes, we understand all this. All these auxiliary stuff. Yes, brother Forsen was outstanding serviceman. Yes, he had no criminal record. Yes, all those things. But he answered the door with a gun in his hand. And there was a deputy sheriff. And then there who can make a valuable argument that he was in favor of life because we expect police officers to go after the threat. We don’t expect police officers to run away. If it was me or someone else who didn’t have a badge, yes, we would have been totally wrong because we don’t have that power. But in the case of a police officer. Police officers are normally join their weapon from behind the 8 ball anyway because usually they join the weapon in defense, but that’s true for the good guy anyway. Anybody that just self-defense, usually the bad guy is the one who set the scene and set the time and whatever set the stage. But in this case there’s a valid argument to make here that Eric added. Was in fear for his life. Now the case for Roger, he may truly believe that the person is over the hood room. I don’t know anything about the community you live in and what the what? The crime rate there and all that stuff. When he was a safe area or not safe area. What the case may be. But he could have truly believed was a hotel room. So we don’t know what his mindset was there but. He could have truly believed. I guess the bigger argument for Roger is. Here, the Second Amendment right.

[Jay]

Yeah. I was about to.

[MCG]

Say that to have a gun and even have the Second Amendment right to answer the door with a gun in the hand, because those things are not illegal. He didn’t break the law, right? He didn’t break the law at all. The officer was known in hindsight, clearly at the wrong apartment. If there was an apartment where there were a man and a woman were arguing.

[Jay]

With a gun in his. Sure.

[MCG]

It wasn’t at Roger’s apartment, so clearly they were at the wrong apartment. So, you know, he has a right to. Believe because he didn’t see anybody, that there was a hoodlum, even though there’s a little bit of a controversy where they believed they heard and the body Cam that someone in the apartment Rudy’s apartment and he was the only one in there, said police or something sound like police. So I don’t know if he truly knew that or not. We’ll never find out. Unless the FaceTime call is recorded. But again, the biggest thing he has the right to answer the door with his gun in the hand. He has a right to the Second Amendment. The deputy shot him without any verbal commands to drop the gun. There were no visible or audible evidence to the officer that there was a domestic violence taking place in his apartment, so the officer should have brought down the heightened sense. Of need to defend yourself because there weren’t any evidence. He didn’t hear anything. He didn’t see anything from that apartment. Indicate the need that he should even be there. And then Roger wasn’t aggressive or threatening or display any threatening manner, right. So you know, the gun was down at his side.

[Jay]

His hand was up in a sort of placating like, you know, hey, I don’t want any trouble type gesture.

[MCG]

So there’s argument to be made on both sides and to some degree, because he’s a police. Officer by default, rather efforts wasn’t going to get the benefit of the doubt because they didn’t. Represent the government. Right. So, Roger Fortune gonna get the benefit of the law. But again, if Aiden can make a valid case that he was in fear for his life. But the bigger question is, and I think we can touch on it a little bit. But is it wise in your opinion, to answer the door? Arm, but it’s gone. Knife orienting.

[Jay]

I think that if you answer the door arm, there’s the potential that you’re escalating the situation, but. If. OK, I’m going to present both sides of the argument because I could see both sides of the argument. If you are in fear of, say, for your life, or you suspect that you are experiencing a break in or robbery or any type of crime that’s happening real time, I can understand why you would answer your front door with a gun in your hand at the same time. If you suspect that a crime is being committed that somehow you are under attack, why answer the door to begin with? But hindsight is 2020, if there’s any.

[MCG]

Exactly.

[Jay]

Thing that perhaps could come from this podcast. Perhaps we can say in hindsight. Perhaps the wise thing to do is if someone’s knocking at your door and claiming to be police and you have reason to believe that they are not police, but you cannot be sure, perhaps the best thing to do is to retreat into the recesses of your home and call the police and ask for. Confirmation if there’s, you know, a unit at your door. I’m not even sure if they would be willing to give you that information, because what if it would hinder their operation in some way? Let’s say, for example they were. Leaved a call for some type of crime in progress, whether it’s drug related or domestic abuse or whatever. I’m not sure that the police would be willing to say, hey, there’s a police officer at your door because perhaps that would give you time to run away. That would explain why he came to the door and listened 1st to see if he can hear anything to hear. If there’s a crime.

[MCG]

Well, he’s trying to get in material evidence.

[Jay]

The former deputy right. He’s trying to get evidence to see if there’s some sort of crime that’s taking place well, with the same stroke, we can perhaps say in hindsight, we can say perhaps the wiser thing to do. And again, I’m not even sure if it would be effective would be to retreat to the recesses of your home and say, hey, there’s someone knocking at my door claiming to be police. I am concerned that it’s probably a robbery in progress. Can you confirm if there’s a unit at my door? Should I go out there etcetera because it could very well be someone pretending to be police, YouTube and various video platform services. Are replete with videos of robberies that take place where people come to your door pretending to be salesman. Someone will knock on your door and say ohh hey, can I present this, you know, product to you and then their Goonies will come while your door is open and your guard is down. They will flank you and or come in from the flanks, I should say. And attack or people pretending to be police impersonating. Police, I mean, there are tons of videos on YouTube, but people haven’t been victimized. When their guards are brought down by a false claim of being some sort of law enforcement or some other benevolent or benign interaction, so should you answer the door with the gun in your hand? Should you answer the door armed? We live in a country where you can and if you fear for your life and you want to go out there and see you, should I suppose? But the trade off is you risk escalating the situation. Whoever is at the door, in this case, a police officer. Would feel threatened, perhaps. And then that would open up the door for deescalation to be thrown out the window. And then you move into live fire or actual rounds being sent down range. Perhaps the argument was, and this is one of the reasons why I hold the deputy. I I feel like I hold the deputy responsible because, OK, as a people, we’ve chosen and we’ve paid you. To be the. Person that puts their life on the. Line to address the situation that we don’t want to address, and so you’re held to a higher standard as a police officer. There is a standard for deadly force. There is a criteria that should be met for deadly force and I don’t think that Roger Fortson crossed that line. Perhaps a less lethal option would have been in order here. Now I understand that because Roger Fortson already had the gun in hand, that somehow the former deputy was at a disadvantage in terms of getting the weapon up. But he had no problems drawing from his holster. From what I understand, he drew from the holster and shot him in the chest, so he had no problems getting there first. So if you’re that confident and competent with your weapon. To take down someone who has a gun in his hand already. Why wouldn’t you go the less lethal route, especially if you come to the door and you don’t hear anything happening and you know.

[MCG]

Policy hindsight is 2020 because.

[Jay]

Hindsight is 2020, so and we are Monday morning quarterbacking. I understand that completely.

[MCG]

Yeah, because if Roger Fortson had intended to, Eric Aiden, he could have. He would have had the advantage. So Eric, Aiden being able to join his weapon and fire first just indicated to us that Roger Fulton had no intention to harm him.

[Jay]

Right. Exactly.

[MCG]

How? However, how would Eric Aiden know that he wouldn’t?

[Jay]

He the only way that he would know that is that Roger Fortson had his weapon pointed at the ground. Someone that means to do you harm is not going to have their weapon pointed at the ground. They’re gonna have it low ready. They’re gonna have it both hands. They’re gonna have it pointed at you. They’re not going to. I get it, believe me, I get it. I just when I saw the video seemed wrong to. Me that you are already at a position. The way he positioned himself. Roger Fortson didn’t have a clear shot at him. Maybe.

[MCG]

No, no, no. When Roger Fulton answered the door, the officer was directly in front.

[Jay]

Of the door. OK, so then he moved back into position where he could be seen. OK, alright. Well then my point doesn’t matter then. So Roger Fortson could have done damage if you wanted to, but like you said, the fact that the officer was able to draw the first shot was fast enough to hit center mass before Roger could ever even get the gun up. If he wanted to.

[MCG]

That’s correct.

[Jay]

Shows that Roger had no intention to hurt the police officer still operating under the perception that perhaps this is some sort of break in or some sort. Nefarious play going on. Like I said, you can’t answer the door armed. We live in a country where we have the Second Amendment. We have the right to protect our person, but it does put you in a position where you can escalate the situation and you end up getting shot. Even if you had no intention of using that weapon apart from self-defense.

[MCG]

Well, Roger Fulton clearly had the job on him. If you wanted to. He didn’t want to have. The job on. Him. Right. So there’s a saying in the gun communities, if you would not go downtown without a gun, don’t go downtown with the gun. So basically they’re saying is if the place you’re going to is so dangerous that you can’t go there without a gun, don’t go there with the gun, because clearly you’re going to get yourself in problems. For me if I can’t answer my front door without the gun, I’m not going to answer my front door with a gun if it’s so dangerous. And I feel like it’s so necessary that I need to have a gun in my hand to answer my front door. I’m not going to answer my front door. Yeah, I think that’s the wisest thing to do. Hindsight.

[Jay]

Hindsight, of course, being 2020 being what it is.

[MCG]

Well, this is not even high side. This is just me saying that I would not go someplace. Way I feel like I can’t go this place without a gun. I’m not gonna go there with one. I’m just not gonna go that place at all. That’s my point. Right. So this is not even high than anything. This is just. This is just wisdom here in terms of if this situation is so dangerous that you feel like you need a gun, don’t go there with a gun. If you can’t go there without a.

No.

[MCG]

Gun. That’s my point. However, this doesn’t translate perfectly to Roger Fortune situation, you know. Yes. As I said before, it is Rogers constitutional right to answer do with the gun in his hand. Now would I answer my dual arm or would the gun on my person, yes, I would do that, but it most likely will be concealed or within reach but not in my hand because. Let’s say it wasn’t a police officer, let’s say. Was girls caught selling cookies? And he answered the door with a gun in his hand and they felt intimidated and they called the police. Would they charge him for some sort of brandishing or assault? I’m not quite sure what Florida’s brandishing laws are. Most of the time when you’re on your own property in your own home. I guess he wouldn’t be charged for brandishing, but would it be some sort of assault they hear some girls called selling cookies and you answer the door with a gun in their hand and put fear in them. I don’t know. I’m no lawyer, so I don’t know, but I’m just. You’re saying if you feel like you need to answer your door, arm the gun in your hand is not the best place for it to be. I think this result would have been different if Roger had the gun in a holster on his side. I don’t think the officer would have pulled and shot and say, put the gun to put the gun down. At that point, I think.

Real.

[Jay]

Basically though, how many people walk around in their home with holsters on their person there a lot.

[MCG]

Of very there are a lot of people who do that. A lot of gun people do that.

[Jay]

Very few, though, that’s not the norm. If you’re at home. I don’t believe that most people are wearing holsters in their home.

[MCG]

A lot of people do that. I think you need to watch some more on YouTube videos. You see, but.

[Jay]

Can you do it? But normally you talk about they wear.

[MCG]

But I, but I I do. But I do understand your point. There might be a lot of people who may not do it, but there might still be a lot of people who walk around the gun in the hand, or at least they have a gun stage close to their front door close to their back door on every floor in their home. Mm-hmm. So I’m not simply saying I have no problem with him being armed with him being exercising Second Amendment rights. I’m simply saying it’s not the wisest thing for him to have it in his hand regardless, regardless of what he was, the police or girls called certain cookies. It wasn’t wise for him to have his gun in the hand and then also.

[Jay]

Sure, agree.

[MCG]

And I guess this is American thing. I was born and raised in this country, but I think this is also common sense. There are times that you’re driving someplace and maybe come to a four. Way stop or something. And you get there first. Now the universal laws in every state at a four way stop the person get their first and the person who. Move. Off 1st or whatever the case may be. There times you come there 1st and this greedy person that figured where they’re going is more important than where you’re going, and they decide to pull out in front of you or whatever case might be. You had the right away. What are you gonna do? You’re gonna run in their side or something because they took it.

[Jay]

Road rage.

[MCG]

Because you had the right or someone might run a red light, but you had the right and you had a green light, but you could have avoided accident. Where you gonna get an accident anyway? Because you’re in there, right? You know, some people might do that, but sometimes you might have to say, hey, you know what? I have the right with my right. But I’m going to be the bigger person. Here and so. You know what? Let them take it sometimes. Come my sense. I have to rain. So guess I’m saying here. Yes, he had a constitutional right to answer the door with a gun in his hand. He has the constitutional right to be in his home with a gun. But that doesn’t really necessarily mean that he had to exercise that right at that very moment. I don’t know. That may get some heat from the to a community, but. You don’t have to exercise all the rights you have, and I know they gonna say, oh, well, if you don’t exercise, you’re gonna lose it. True. But you don’t have exercises all the time. I’m just simply saying, you know. Open carry is legal in my state and in a lot of other states, but I don’t open carry. Not that I want them to make open carry illegal. I’m just not comfortable open carrying so I don’t open carry, but I have a right to do so. So not because you have a right that means you have to. You always do it. You have a right to walk down the street within a year 15 over your shoulder. In many states, that doesn’t mean it’s best to do it just because of the society we live in today, and I know some people going to say hey, well, I want to do it regardless because I want exercise, right? Well, fine. But also. Accept the potential consequences. Sure that will come with it, meaning it might extra harassment by the police or even being shocked. And again, we can argue, you know. But it was right. If you be shot at the end of the day, whatever other for this one was right or he was wrong or whatever the case may be. Unfortunately he’s he’s dead.

[Jay]

Right.

OK.

[MCG]

So you know, and to some extent I don’t see how they’re going to get 12 reasonable people to say this officer doesn’t have somewhat, however, small percentage you may be that he could have truly been in fear for his life.

[Jay]

Well, maybe one good thing that could come from this podcast. Now that this is hindsight for all of us. Unfortunately, Roger Fortson, like you said, is gone. But perhaps a take away is what you said, MCG, if you would not be comfortable going somewhere. Without a gun, then you shouldn’t go to that place with a gun. If someone is at your front door and claiming to be police and you think perhaps that it’s a break in of some sort, you wouldn’t go there without a gun. Don’t go there with a gun, perhaps something that can be done again, I don’t know if the police would even give you this information. Help you out in this way, but perhaps the best thing to do is to retreat to the recesses of your home. Perhaps it’s your bedroom or some place away from the front door, and call the police and ask if there are units at your door and what should you do. They might be able to give you that information and then you could make a a sounder decision to avoid this situation where you’re seeking to defend your life. You don’t know the whole situation and then you end up inadvertently threatening someone, or perhaps making someone feel in fear for their lives. And then they shoot you. Perhaps the best thing to do is to retreat to the recesses of your home. Call the police. Explain the situation and ask for confirmation, perhaps in a situation like this. That’s the best thing to do, and of course. When you’re in the heat of the situation, it’s happening in real time. Perhaps you’re not even thinking of that. Perhaps you’re not even considering that, but maybe beforehand trying to think through. OK. If this happens, then I do this. If that happens, then I do this so that when the time comes, you have a plan and you’re not trying to think of a plan. On the fly with someone beating on your door with a gun in your hand. So much could go wrong, and in this case, unfortunately and sadly, I don’t wanna say unfortunately, very sadly, it did go. That Roger Fortson is gone.

[MCG]

Yeah, I agree with you. And I can think of any situation where their dispatcher would not tell him. Hey, yes, there’s a police officer at the door. It is a very, very rare situation where they would not disclose information. Police officers, sadly, they’re demonized, but I don’t think they’re in the business to go and.

[Jay]

Yeah, right. And yeah.

[MCG]

Kill people. So if he had retreated, which is probably the. Thing to do if he thought there was hoodlum saying their police, that would have been his best choice to retreat, call 911 and say hey, is there an officer at my door or at the officers at my door? Unless it is a situation where he’s a highly sort of a criminal where he’s under the FBI most wanted. Listen something.

Right.

[MCG]

I don’t see why they would not. Say yes please. This army yourself and answer the door for the police officer.

[Jay]

And if he’s that kind of person, he’s probably not calling the police to get confirmation anyway. So you’re right. So perhaps that is the best move. Retreat to the recesses of your home, call the police and ask for confirmation. If you come to the door with the gun in your hand and it is the police, they will light you up because we’re asking the police officers to respond.

[MCG]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Jay]

To terrible situations, people’s worst days and emotions are high. There’s guns and violence and death involved. Police officers are naturally on edge. We would be flabbergasted. To see the things that officers encounter throughout the day, and I know it sounds like I’m flip flopping. One minute I’m supporting the police and the other minute I’m not. But again, this is hindsight. Perhaps we could take this as a learning opportunity to say, OK, if we’re in this particular situation and I’m not sure if it’s actually police at my door. The best thing to do is to retreat into the recesses of your home and call the police. And ask for confirmation, and if they say yes, there’s an officer at your door comply without the gun in your hand. Put the gun away and comply.

[MCG]

Yeah, I think that would be the best course of action. But do you think that the circumstances certainly is that we’re racially motivated?

[Jay]

OK. This is the part that really gets under my skin. Because. Benjamin Crump is their attorney, the family’s attorney, and unfortunately, I have this visceral reaction that whatever that man is attached to, I automatically regard it with suspicion. We know how much of A snake oil salesman he is, and so I don’t believe that this shooting was in any way racially motivated. I don’t think the officer. Had enough time to say ohh that’s a black man and then shot him. I don’t think that’s what happened. I think he saw the gun he was in fear for his life. He responded with deadly force. Again, it’s my personal opinion that there were other options on the table but in the heat of the moment, he. Probably felt like he did not have those options available to him. Do I think that he opened the door and said Ohh wow, that’s a black guy. Let me kill him. No, I don’t think this is racially motivated because as you said, MCG, there are hundreds of people or instances where people have answered the front door with a gun in their hand and the police officers have shot them and I’m sure they come. And every color. Of the rainbow. So I don’t think this was racially motivated. It’s infuriating that Crump would take that line in this particular instance because in order to say that this was racially motivated, you are making a spiritual, like, judgment call. You are saying that you can see in the former deputies head. At that moment, he decided, wow, that’s a negra. I’m gonna shoot him. Or that’s a *****. He’s gonna kill me. So I’m gonna kill. Then you can’t make that call. You weren’t even there when this happened. You don’t know if that was the prevailing thought process that motivated him to behave the way that he did. You can’t make that call. I know that’s frustrating because racism does exist in this world, and he wants to prove that with every case that he picks up. I understand that racism. Does exist, but to paint every single encounter of, especially an unfortunate and sad situation like this, as a racist one, it’s completely out of line. I don’t think race had anything to do with this, and from what? I understand the gentleman himself is not white. The deputy is not white. From what I understand, I think he’s Hispanic, if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong on that.

[MCG]

Yeah, I’m not quite sure if it’s white or Hispanic.

[Jay]

Yeah, so yeah, don’t quote me on that, but so I don’t think this is racially motivated. What do you think?

[MCG]

Yeah, I don’t think so either. I think it was basically fair, but you’ve basically said everything there that. Would agree with.

[Jay]

It but the way that things are in the country right now, it’s hard to not make it racially motivated because one was black and one wasn’t. And so naturally, there’s that angle. And so right, they can’t prove that it was a racial instance. But what they can do is tack it onto certain other instances and call it a continuation of the racial problem in this country. They can project it and make it a greater. Problem in terms of systemic racism, so that instead of it being an isolated incident, even if they were to make that call, instead of it being an isolated incident, it’s indicative of the racist nature of this country, which is what he tries to do in every single situation that he’s involved in, Benjamin Crump, that is in every situation that he’s involved in. And it’s just infuriating.

[MCG]

Well, unfortunately, I think when Benjamin Crump is attached to anything, it always seemed to be that. Way, yeah. But I listened to the family speak and I didn’t really. Hear much of anything from a racial angle. I think they got Benjamin Crump because he’s the permanent civil rights lawyer. And basically at this point, they’re saying that Roger civil rights were violated and they might be right.

[Jay]

There’s an argument to be made for that, sure.

[MCG]

They might be right there. Criminal or civil standards. Two different things, right. So they might be right there. So they got him or he maybe got. Them since you know because I don’t know if he represents white people when their civil rights are violated and he just never make the news. But it seems like he’s a black civil rights lawyer that only represent black people. I don’t know. I could be wrong. I hope I’m wrong on that. But anyways, you’re listening to the rumor of embarrassed podcast we’re talking about Roger. Watson. And then when we come back from this break, we’ll talk about Sonya Massey. We’ll. Be right back.

[Jay]

Do you have the desire to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints? Answers in Genesis can help. They provide biblically sound books, CD’s, DVD’s, home schooling materials, VBS materials, online courses, digital downloads, and the Answers magazine. And. More plus tickets to the Creation Museum and Ark encounter go to the answers book store by clicking the link in the description section below so you 2 can be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks the reason of the hope that is in you. Hi, this is Jay MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things, removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on. Consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross. OK, MCG, we just discussed the sad and unfortunate situation of Roger Fortson. Let’s talk about Sonya Massey. Who was she and what can we learn about her particular situation?

[MCG]

So Sonny Massey was a 36 year old mother of two who had a host of mental health issues. We know that because 12 hours or so before, she was unfortunately demise, her mother called the Sheriff Department and asked someone to go check on. And the mother did ask that, hey, don’t send any. I don’t remember if she used the term racist cop or any bias cop or anything on that, so she had. Mental issues and she was fatally shot by a Sangamon County Sheriff deputy by the name of Sean Gregson in Springfield, IL.

[Jay]

Yeah. And so. Sonya Massie’s mental issues were on full display 12 hours prior, like even her. Like you said, I believe it was her mother and her sister spoke at length with police officers talking about some of the struggles they had with her and how she says things that makes it sound like she’s got some paranoid sort of delusion. Going on, but the officers that responded 12 hours prior were very, very, very patient and kind and they worked with Sonya Massey and calmed her down and got her what she needed. And it was a fairly benign and and productive, I’d say positive interaction. But later on, when she calls the police because she feels like she hears someone milling about her home, she wanted police officers to check it out. The officers that responded there are two of them, actually, Sean Grayson and the other one who I for some reason I couldn’t find. The other officers name.

[MCG]

I don’t think they’ve released his name.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

But I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think.

[Jay]

That really sees them able to find it, so that’s most likely the case and again. Haven’t. It seemed like when she was interacting with the officer, she was having some mental issues as well. I don’t know what you thought when you saw the video, but it seemed to me that when talking about the circumstances of her death, when the police officers came, everything was calm and even until she went into the kitchen to get something or another. Perhaps she was getting water, boiling water? I don’t know if it was on the stove already or if she was just going to tend to it or she was just getting water.

[MCG]

Ohh yeah, so let’s back up a little bit. So Roger Ferguson happened on May 3rd. Sonya Massey happened on July 5th.

[Jay]

Right, so this is only a few months later, right?

[MCG]

So. So. Her mom, as I’ve mentioned it will call 911 about 12 hours earlier to report that her daughter was having a mental episode. As I said, she played with the dispatcher, not to hurt her daughter and not to send a prejudice cop.

Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

[MCG]

Officer showed up along with a medical personnel, and she was ruled cleared, meaning not a danger to herself or others. Less than three hours later, Sonya herself called 911 to report, or at least it was believed by Sonya that you know, her car was being broken into or something like that.

[Jay]

Right. She heard stuff on the sides.

[MCG]

That she later admitted to breaking her own car window and stuff like that. So obviously she having stuff going on. She was also taken to the hospital for the cotton broken glasses, blah, blah blah blah stuff. Like the officer reported. Sonya appears to be in mental distress, so her mother called 9112 hours later, she called 911. Now again.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

At 12:49 AM on July 6, so all that was July, July 5th and it’s so almost 12 hours later, on July 6, Sonya call 911 again to report a Prowler. So my mother called 911 saying she has a mental issues. 3 hours after that, Sonya call 911.

[Jay]

5th right to the right, right, almost 12 hours later.

[MCG]

To report car broken into. Then she admitted that she’s the one who broke her car window, went to the hospital, blah blah blah, all the stuff at 12:49 on July.

MHM.

[MCG]

Six, she called 911 to report the Prowler. Deputies went out and they saw no one. They contacted Sonya to get some information and I guess eventually they asked or she invited him into the house. They went in and the officer, not Shawn. But the other officer was putting his lights around the house and other case might be. I guess checking to see if anyone was there. I don’t know why he would need to do that since it wasn’t really of. Or dangerous nature or disturbance or whatever the case may be. It was she calling to report a prowler. They didn’t send the prowler. I guess they wanted her name, so they were acting for ID’s and stuff like that. So they acted her ID and asking, what’s her name and date of birth. And she was kind of stumbling over, giving them that. And she said something. OK, I’m going to show you my paperwork. And he was a notice. Give me your ID anyway. At the same time she had water on the stove and Sean Grayson. Noticed the water was boiling, so he told her, hey, you probably want to go take care of that. You don’t wanna have a fire stuff like that. So she got up? No, she lives. What we call a Rambler that you consider home like a Rambler.

[Jay]

Right. I don’t know what you mean by Rambler. Like a double wide like a.

[MCG]

Well, it’s like a one floor 3 bedroom home where?

[Jay]

Also like a wrench, a wrench type.

[MCG]

I don’t know if I wouldn’t call it a ranch, but it’s another big home. Let’s put it away. So there’s, like, a dividing wall between the living area and the kitchen, like 1/2 wall. And you can clearly see from the living area where they were standing into the kitchen.

[Jay]

OK. Yeah. OK. Mm-hmm. Ohh OK got. So where the kitchen is? Yeah.

[MCG]

So suddenly got up, went to the kitchen and took the pot off of their stove and went to the sink. When she did that, the officer or the officers stepped back. The deputy stepped back, and I’m not quite clear what the exchange was there. And then if she asks him why he’s stepping back or whatever the case may be, but he clearly. Chuckled and said. I’m moving away from your hot boiling water, and then she repeated the same thing. You’re moving away from my hot boiling water and he said yes. And she said, well, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. And once she said that, it escalated to the point where he pulled his weapon and F bomb, lace told her to drop it, to drop it, to drop it. Sonya ducked behind some table or whatever it was that was there, and to me, at the point she raised the pot, he fired. No, I’ve watched this body. Some video several times. I’ve put that little section on repeat because I’m still baffled to this day what was the deadly threat Sonya presented to this officer, because to me it seemed like they went from chuckling to gun being pointed at Sonya in a split second. So I’m constantly repeating that. Little area. So he told her, hey, the pot is boiling. You don’t want to have a fire. She went over there. He stepped back. Both of them stepped back when she took the part off and went to the sink. She didn’t even face them. She went to the sink with it while you stepping back because. We are stepping away from your hot boiling water, stepping away from my hot boiling water. I rebuke in the name of Jesus as soon as she said that it was F bum lace. Anyway, I have two clips here. I want to play again. I’m still confused, but I’ll play these clips and we’ll see what you think.

[Police and Sonya]

You dig around for your paperwork.

I don’t know where my. You send the stack right there maybe.

[MCG]

So this is where they’re asking for ID. She’s searching her stuff for ID, and we’re going to. Their body Cam videos in the show notes if you want to watch it yourself. One second.

That is the best.

[Police and Sonya]

We don’t need a fire right here.

[MCG]

So that was Officer Sean Grayson saying we don’t need a fire while we’re here. She’s agreeing. She going over to the kitchen at. This point.

OK. In the water. Yeah. Face.

[MCG]

Yeah, I’m still confused. So I ruined this several times. I don’t know if they were flirting with each other and guess I’m just not worldly enough to know to see these things. I’m confused. What was it that Sonya said or did she do? They escalate to grievous bodily injury or deadly force, so I keep on watching this Vatican video to see if something will come out as to why he felt that way. And I found my answer when he was explaining to his superior what happened. And it is exactly what all of us. Think. Sonya said I rebuked the name of Jesus and he saw that as a threat. I guess I’m confused still.

[Jay]

Wow.

[MCG]

Here’s the next clip he explaining why police weapon.

[Police and Sonya]

You want to run down real quick.

Not right.

[MCG]

So that’s Sean Grayson, the officer who shot Sonya Massey talking to his superior. I don’t think he was quite the sheriff, but. This deputy sheriff was above him.

[Police and Sonya]

House is cleared. She was the only one. No, she had a boiling water and came at me with boiling water. Yeah. She said she was going to rebuke me in the name of Jesus and came out with boiling water. That’s. What all this is? I was staying right here and that’s. Where she’s landed.

What do y’all? Need for a month.

[Police and Sonya]

Just nothing right now, just hang. Out there for me.

[MCG]

So that was their, I guess I’m going to go to Superior Officer on the scene. He was explaining to the superior officer what happened. Basically, he said that he came after him with hot boiling water and said she gonna rebuke in. The name of Jesus. No, I didn’t see that on the body Cam video. I didn’t see she. To him, of course, the water was thrown, or at least I don’t know if he was thrown or it was dropped. It doesn’t make any sense to me. What? Happened. Here and I don’t see how rebuked the name of Jesus could have been a deadly threat. This could be cultural, because maybe black people will say more rebuke in the name of Jesus and white people. What something I don’t. Know. I’m confused here. I’m just reaching for straw and I’ve been looking at this for a while and I’m still reaching for straw as to why this escalated.

[Jay]

You are not the only one confused by this. I don’t see what the threat was either. What an incredible escalation of force. To respond to someone that says I rebuke you with the name of Jesus and to say, laced with expletives, I will shoot you in the face. You better not. I will shoot you in the face. You go and then literally shot her in the face. And he lied to his superior officer, saying that she came after him with the pot of water because as soon as he drew the weapon, she put.

[MCG]

Then shot in the feet.

[Jay]

The hand that didn’t have the pot, she put her hand up, palms facing outwards, saying OK, and she’s literally said OK, I’m sorry. And she dropped down, still holding that pot of hot water. And he had to step around that half wall that you’re talking about that separates the living area from the kitchen. He had to step around that half wall in order to see her and shot at her. And now he says that she came at him, I think in the video it looks more like she was positioning her body and putting the hot pot. Of water between her and him because his weapon was already drawn and. Pointed at her at this point, maybe she felt like the only thing she could do to defend herself was to put the pot of water right in front. And so I suppose he thought that the pot of water was going to burn his shoes, and so he had to shoot her in the face. I suppose that what was going through his mind, because the position from which she was seated, she’s not going to be able to throw that. Water far enough to do any damage to him. She’s not gonna be able to fling that water far enough. She might burn his leg. OK, maybe. OK. His leg, his trouser legs would have probably gotten some. Hot water. But it’s not enough to do any type of deadly damage. And so for him to say ohh she came at me with that pot of water was a lie. That that’s not what the video shows at all. And I don’t see I agree with you. I’m baffled as well. I do not see where he certainly felt threatened. Sonya Massey looked like she weighed 100 lbs soaking wet. And she was not armed. Although you can make the argument, I suppose, that a pot of boiling hot water is some sort of weapon. I’m sure it could be, but the way that she was crouched and the way that she had her hand up and the way that she was holding that pot. To me, there was no threat there. She had immediately backed down and made herself small and backed away and said, hey, I don’t want any trouble, but he actually stepped around that half wall to see her and shot her in the face. And this is 100% no reason, no reason whatsoever. And this is an officer who has a track record. He’s gone from like, department to department Police Department, just hopping different police departments. So he has a history of brash or. I was gonna say central, but I suppose I can’t use that word in this particular instance, but very brash, very violent, very roguish behavior as a police officer, there’s no reason for this. I mean, well, the good news is that the legal system is working because he has not only been fired, but he’s also been charged, right, indicted, actually. And so. Yeah, I agree with you. I have no idea.

[MCG]

Yeah, you know. Not only again, I’m no scientist. I may play one on TV, but I’m no scientist. But to me, let’s say Sonny’s intention was to throw the hot water at that.

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

The hot water would have been more effective if she had grabbed it off the stove and thrown it at them right away.

[Jay]

And flung it at him. Then yeah, you’re right, right.

[MCG]

Water tend to lose heat pretty quickly, so she took it off the stove. She went over to this thing, look to pour it out. Uh-huh. Right. They were still on the other side of the half wall at that point. Her home is at least appeared to be very small to me. Yeah, it doesn’t look like a very big home. You’re walking. You step into the living room, immediate to the right. There was what looked like a. There’s a bedroom. So I think they like, there’s a three bedroom. So on the right there’s all bedroom 3 bedroom. Go down that side. On the right, and I assume there’s a bathroom somewhere there to be on the kitchen. But at the back of kitchen, I think there’s a back door. Anyway. Food. The house wasn’t. That big, but anyway. So they were actually closer to the front door than they were to Sonya. Yeah. So you’re here because she report there’s a prowler you were trying to get her information. You feel chatting? The easiest thing for you to do is to slip through the front door. That’s the easiest thing for you to do. It’s hot water.

[Jay]

To the front. Sure. Second, grab your Taser. Do something you know second.

[MCG]

2nd If she does decide that she’s gonna throw the hot water at you, all thing you need to do is turn your back and make yourself a little bit smaller. It wouldn’t even be a first degree burn at that point because the length of time that water goes after the fly to get to you, the water is going to lose so much he’s not going to be burned like taking. Shower. There were no deadly force here.

[Jay]

Yeah, no reason for.

[MCG]

It for sure no deadly force here. Not unless she going to come and use a pot and swing it at your head or something. But if this case was that you feel that she was going to throw the hot water at you, which technically you can say she probably did because when the shot rang out, the water did reach up to their feet, almost like she may be short. But most people are saying at that point. She threw it in self defence. Mm-hmm. Because to me, she was using a pot as somehow a barrier between she and the officers because they pulled the gun on her, so they had options. You, of course, they could have used Tasers or whatever. Some other less. So or they could have simply step out of the house, surrounded it called for reinforcement, or they were out and put her in coffee and take her downtown. Yeah, if they feel like she was threatened in her life. But that all again, is auxiliary because we was the escalation. Some people are saying that this officer is probably demon process or something.

[Jay]

I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe when she said. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, the demons came all out in full force is.

[MCG]

I don’t know, that’s.

[Jay]

That what they’re saying. What? Oh.

[MCG]

Goodness, that’s what I’m hearing online. Some people say, but I’m baffled why he went from chuckling. I’m stepping away from your hot boy.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

And water. And then she kind of, yeah, going away from my heart running water. I don’t know if she determined that was flirting or something. I don’t know. That’s the only thing I can think about. Here. For her response that he said he’s hot boiling water and she kind of said I rebuke in the name of Jesus. Or is like start flirting with me or whatever case maybe I’m I’m baffled. And what happened here? So I think this officer is 110% at fault in my.

[Jay]

Oh, absolutely.

[MCG]

Opinion. You know? Yeah, this one.

[Jay]

There’s there’s nothing there and I don’t think, well, he’s been indicted by a grand jury. I don’t think he’s going to convince anyone that she pose. A deadly threat to him, especially with how he could have just easily, like you said, backed out of the door if she had a pot of hot boiling oil, perhaps I could see his reaction, maybe. And even then not.

[MCG]

Yeah. Really, that would be a little bit different.

[Jay]

I would agree, sure, but this is hot water that she removed from the stove. And for me, when I watch the video, it is so clear that she’s in a more defensive sort of cowering away. From him position and having that pot of water there as a barrier between her and him.

[MCG]

Yeah, I don’t want to lose heat so quickly.

[Jay]

Yeah. And the way that she was seated, there’s no way she would have been able to sling that water to hurt him. I think that and he stated his intention beforehand. You better not. I will shoot you in the face again. This is expletive laden. I don’t think she did anything to draw out such an intense response. Once I think that he was. Of course, we’re Monday night quarterbacking here, but in light of his history and in light of his just incredible reaction to her, merely saying I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. He escalated that tenfold with saying that he would shoot her in the face and then proceeds to do exactly that. No way, man, this was. Murder, you could even argue that it was premeditated because he told her what he was. Going to do and he did it.

[MCG]

I wouldn’t necessarily take it to their level of premeditated, but.

[Jay]

He’s been indicted for that, according to I’m reading from Wikipedia here. He’s been indicted on five counts here, 3 counts of first degree murder. One count of aggravated. OK, I’m sorry. Not premeditated. First is a first degree murder. Premeditated. Yeah. OK. So yeah, he has been 3 counts of first degree murder, 1 count of aggravated battery with a firearm and one count of official misconduct. He’s being held in jail without bond. Or I’m sorry without bail. And that his lawyer saying. Ohh, you know. Well, he has stage 3 colon cancer. He’s not a threat to the community and I’m just like, no, I think in light of everything that we’ve seen in light of his history, he is a threat to the community. Keep him behind bars.

[MCG]

Well, let’s see. I have a problem there because a lot of these cases where unfortunately white police officers involved in a shooting with a black.

[Jay]

With what?

[MCG]

Person they tend to overcharge the officer and then the officer get off. Mm-hmm. I think they will have an easier time proving second degree murder rather than first degree.

[Jay]

MHM.

Hmm.

[MCG]

Again, I’m no lawyer, but I think they might be an easier time to prove. Second degree, no premeditation. But he did this. Whatever the case might be, rather than charging it for first degree, they had to prove first degree. Except, of course, they’re gonna use the fact that he explicitly expletive I’m going to shoot you in the expletive. Peace and then proceed to do that without tree posing herself as a deadly threat. And then the the question will beg. Now is hot water a deadly threat?

[Jay]

Well, perhaps the reason why they went with first degree is because not only he stated the intention, he stated that he would shoot her in the face. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons why they’re going for first degree, but they also said that his actions I’m reading a quote here that it was akin to an officer intentionally and unnecessarily putting himself in front of a moving vehicle and then justifying the use of force because he got struck. Right. And so perhaps to say, the attorney feels like he can really. 1st degree 3 counts though. Is it because he shot her three times? Is that why?

[MCG]

Well, I can see that. I have no idea. They probably just turn the book. At him. But right I I.

[Jay]

Do think that he shot her three times in the. Head or in? The face, or in that perhaps? Yeah.

[MCG]

I don’t know what time he shot, but I can see that argument that he willfully put himself in that situation and then to use deadly force. But.

Hmm.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

I would also say hey, maybe add on 2nd degree just in case the jury. Don’t see it as first degree. Remember, you have to convince 12 people and you’re gonna have to convince 12 people that keep humiliated it. Look, as the question now does, hot water rise to the level of the divorce? I think it can be in certain circumstances in this circumstance. I don’t think it. Was.

[Jay]

MHM.

[MCG]

There were too far away for that water to of justice affect. Old man, sure.

[Jay]

Sure. And he’s not a small dude, right? He’s a big.

[MCG]

Dude, again, as I said earlier, they could have simply slipped out the front door or just simply turn your back if you don’t want to water.

M.

[MCG]

The face simply turn it back. You get a warm shower. Not only was the part off of the fire for a few seconds at that point she called Beard some death or whatever she has there in her in her kitchen. At that point, the water is basically warm water. Lucy talk fast. It’s not going to bother you. Maybe you.

[Jay]

Yeah, in. Kitchen. Her yeah.

[MCG]

You know, you may be a little bit uncomfortable, but you know, even gonna get that first. Degree burn so.

[Jay]

Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and say the water was boiling hot and he was afraid that he would get burned. OK, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, right? Even so, like you said, you brought out a great point that I didn’t even consider. He was so close to that front door, literally. If you would take a step back, he would be beyond the reach of that water, no matter.

[MCG]

How far she threw it, I had step by the turn. He’s off of the door.

[Jay]

He’s out of the door again. There’s no reason. No reason at all for this. And so the family has retained Benjamin Crump. I guess Benjamin Crump is having himself a good old time there with all of the the traffic that he’s getting. But they’ve retained Benjamin Crump. And I don’t know if he made the claim in this particular instance that this was racially motivated. I didn’t see him say anything about it being racially motivated.

[MCG]

Oh.

[Jay]

That it’s more of the instance of police brutality that he’s going after and. So he can’t argue with them. There can’t argue with them there. I think that Grayson completely overreacted, escalated things to a degree that was not necessary.

[MCG]

Yeah, I don’t think the circumstance was racially motivated. I I think those was a trigger, happy officer who was clearly a bad.

[Jay]

Not racially motivated, right? Officer. Yeah. And the sheriff ended up resigning over this.

[MCG]

You know. Well, he was forced to, I believe more. But the question begs here tho.

Force.

[MCG]

Not racially motivated. He had a sugar happy officer with a mental ill person. That’s what the situation here. They didn’t really know how to handle her because they were acting for simple stuff like your driver’s license. And she was. I’m gonna show your papers. Whatever case may be. I don’t know if she’s a holder or something, but her house looked really messy.

[Jay]

Yeah. Yeah, her house did seem like she had that situation going on. Yeah.

[MCG]

Yeah. So clearly she’s unstable and her mother said as much. And then you have a sugar happy officer and the mother, probably 4, told his mother probably knew, hey, my daughter is having an issue. Senior officer that has a little bit of common sense. Basically she was saying and 12 hours is, you know, didn’t get that officer.

Right.

[MCG]

That didn’t really, in my opinion, was trigger happy so.

[Jay]

That’s so. So so Can you imagine as a mother you called the police and they sent him and your daughter is dead as a result, how you would think and feel?

[MCG]

Well, they didn’t send him. They sent the different set of officers. They declared her clear. Remember. Then she called about the car and then she called later. So 12 hours later. So it wasn’t the same thing. But I’m just simply saying in the matters 12 hours, the mother had said, hey, don’t send the credit officer. Right. But the question here, though, is.

[Jay]

Oh, OK, got you. Gotcha. Yeah.

[MCG]

Which one of these two cases Eric Aiden? Or Sean Grayson. Which one of these cases they believe will most likely lead to the conviction of the police?

[Jay]

Officer My Grayson for sure. You know, Aiden, you could make the argument that he was in fear for his life. Fortson came to the door with a gun in his hand. I’ve already expressed how I feel about the situation, but I could see how a jury could say, hey, you know, this was.

Oh.

[Jay]

An unfortunate accident. You can’t fault the officer. I could see that. But with Grayson, I don’t see how in the world he can be. Acquitted or found? Not guilty of anything that happened here with Sonya Massey. I don’t see how. And if it does turn out that way, that would be, in my view, of course, such an egregious miscarriage of justice, because there is absolutely no no need for this. None at all. Now again, people can make the argument that the pot of water was a threat. And to some degree it was. But it wasn’t a threat that necessitated deadly force. Is what I’m trying to say. So if I were to choose between the two, most definitely the Sonya Massey case would result in a conviction.

[MCG]

Yeah, I would agree. If you had a part of acid.

[Jay]

Of the police officer.

[MCG]

A part of boiling oil, as you said. Yeah, I’ll give him more of a case, but a part of boiling water being that close to the door, being able to retrieve. Yeah. So which one of them would most likely get convicted? I’ll be utterly surprised.

[Jay]

Uh-huh.

[MCG]

If Sean Grayson don’t get convicted on this as. You. Said yeah, I will be the 110% surprise based on the fact that I’m seeing. Now, there’s no way with our political culture and all these things right now that he’s gonna get off. This is almost as cut and dry as he can be. Yeah, I don’t see a way. You gotta walk into a court room with someone who have a First Amendment right and tell them you shot this person because they said they’re going to rebuke in the name of. This I can’t see. There’s a history where I rebuked the name of Jesus mean I’m going to be violent against you mean I’m gonna throw hot water on you. I’m going to somehow hurt you because I rebuke in the name of.

Hmm.

[MCG]

Jesus.

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

I can’t see how that can be his defense. I can’t see how I can walk up to a police officer. Say I rebuke the name of Jesus. Plot is gonna shock me. Yeah, I don’t that one again. I’m still baffled. So. And as you said, Sonya Massey was probably 50 lbs. Soaking wet. Yeah. So and this guy was.

[Jay]

Absolutely. She was a. Tiny woman.

[MCG]

Probably well over 6 foot, well over £250.

[Jay]

200 something pounds it was clear in the video that he was that big.

[MCG]

So at the end of the day, Sean Grayson, definitely 100%, I’ll be utterly surprised if you get off. Eric, Aiden and Roger Fortson case, unfortunately, and I know the family probably would prefer not to hear this, but.

Yeah.

[MCG]

I’ll be surprised if he does not get. Right, because there’s just too much going on here. There’s just too much. I’ll be surprised if you get convicted. I’ll be surprised if they can find 12 people in the state of Florida that would say, hey, this officer definitely did not have any standing at all. I won’t be surprised if there’s a mistrial. And maybe a second child, and they probably just dismiss the case and without retrying him, maybe he would not be found not guilty, but I can’t see that. He’ll be found guilty because that’s hard for me. That would be. It’s hard to fight. I personally, if I was on a jury based on the fact that I have. Now, I don’t think I would be able to convict Eric Aiden unless they’re going to bring out some facts out there that I have not seen to really prove to me that without a shadow of a doubt, because the standard is so high that he could not have been in fear for his life. Because if I put myself in the same situation, say I’m a police officer, someone answered the door with a gun in their hand. I’m definitely gonna draw my weapon. Would I shoot? Ah, I don’t know.

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

But I can’t say that his actions were so unreasonable that there’s no way that he could have been for his life. Sean Grayson, I’m still trying to find out how it is grown.

[Jay]

Man, he’s so baffled and perplexed.

[MCG]

It’s afraid of a little. Bit. Of water? Yeah, I’m just still lost that this thing escalated so fast. Literally less than 3 seconds after you chuckled at her. And you’ll see, like, you’re exchanging.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

You know, yeah, being pleasant with each other. Ohh, I’m just chuckling at you. You’re chuckling at me. You repeat me in the name of.

[Jay]

Jesus and and then you go from zero to 100 in the span of a few seconds. You know you’re a police officer, I said this in the Roger Fortson segment. You’re a police officer, you’re held to a higher standard. Yes. You see the worst of people out there, but.

Yeah.

[Jay]

Every single person that you encounter is also a soul. It’s also a human being. I know that we asked a lot of our police officers, but it’s because we have so much confidence in them that they will make the right call when that situation comes. It’s distressing to me that you could be in a position of authority like that and not keep that in mind to keep you from being that overbearing or tyrannical or. The cop that BLM is always complaining about. Now I understand again as I said. Police officers see the worst of people out there. They go from saving hurt children to stopping bad guys, to stopping domestic abuse, all in the night’s work. Their emotional engagement, the roller coaster ride, and so there’s a lot that we expect from them. There’s a lot that they go through, but to escalate things to that degree. And to forget that you’re dealing with a soul for whom Christ died. Now, granted, I don’t think Grayson is of any person of faith or anything of that particular nature. But if you’re called to that particular profession. I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to remember that the people that you’re dealing with, our people, our souls, Sonya Massey, had mental difficulties, that she was dealing with such an exaggerated and forceful and violent response was completely unnecessary, Roger Fortson, a very sad situation. I could see both sides, although I would. All the police officer responsible, but I do see both sides. And these two? People went into eternity and I promise you none of them. I could say this with full confidence. None of them knew that those days that they were killed, respectively one in March. I believe it was may and the other in July. None of them knew that was going to be their last moment. That was going to be their last day, that they would step out into it. Community and that’s something for each of us to consider. What do you think, MCG?

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. Roger Footman, Sonya Massey were souls for whom Christ died. And that has made clear in Luke 1910 for the son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. John. 316 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So we know that Christ came and died for Sonya. He came and died for Roger came and died. For me they were souls for whom Christ died, and not only they were their souls, for whom Christ died. They were souls for whom God loved, and at some point you need to take the fact that you deal with. A human. Being in hand here. You know in sunny Massey case, I think they had clearly avenues of deescalation by flipping through the front door and. Then order her out. Or something like that. Look, I’m not the sharpest pencil in the case, but I think if I’m baffled, I think there are the people who are baffled, who are watching this. I can’t be that down because I put it away. So, you know, by the sudden Hebrews, Chapter 9, verse 27. And as it appointed at the man wants to die.

[Jay]

Absolutely.

[MCG]

But after this, the judgment. Hey, Sonny mercy. Roger fortson. They died young. We didn’t expect them to go at the time. They they went. I don’t think they expected it. No one. Expected it, but regardless of how they died, the virus that we appointed to die once, but after that it’s a judgement. So in other words, they have gone to face the maker and that should be so being taught for all of us that one day we too will go make our maker. The Bible says equally as these chapter 12 and verse 14.

MHM.

[MCG]

For God shall bring every work into judgement with every secret thing. Would it be good, or would it be evil? Romans 2, verse 6. God will render to every man according to his. Deeds Matthew, 12, verse 36. But I say unto you that every idle word that man shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. What I’m saying is my friend is there the day coming that you have the answer to the highest judge, Eric Aiden, the officer in Rutherfordton case, Sean Grayson, the officer in Sunyani case. They’re going to be standing before a judge. But you want to be the highest judge, as I said, Eric, Aiden most likely, in my opinion, will get off. But he’s still gonna have to stand before the judge of judges, Sean. Ethan most likely going to be convicted, in my opinion, but at the same time he’s still going to have to answer to the judge of judge and he would not necessarily need to come from a human lips that he’s been rebuked. Jesus himself is going to rebuke him then because if he has never come to a point where he trusts Christ as Lord and personal savior. Though I guess the big question is here, not so much for Sean Grayson or Aiden, but you listen, friend. Are you ready to face your maker? I’m assuming Roger Fortson did not know that May 3rd, 2024 would have been his last day, and I’m assuming Sonny Massey did not know that July 6th, 2024 was going to be her last day. When is your last day? I’m assuming you don’t know, just like I don’t know when my last day is. But we can be prepared. That’s the most important thing we can be prepared to face our maker for that last day whenever he comes, the Bible declares in Romans 6 verse 23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And I had one college professor, Bible teacher said. What does all mean? He said all means all and that’s all. Call me. Means. So the Bible says for all have sin that includes you. Bible says in Romans Chapter 5 and verse 12 we have fourth by one man Sin entered into the world and death by sin as the dead passive. But all men for that all have sinned. Romans 310 as it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one. And even our righteousness. They were declared as filthy rags in Isaiah 64 verse 6. So not only are we sinners according to God’s word, but sin has consequences. So all of us are sinners. So all of us going to face this consequence. That was it for the wages of sin is death for the rages of sins. That what you earn. From your sin is dead, but you do not leave us. Hopeless, you say, but the gift of God is eternal life to Jesus Christ, our Lord. God did not leave us hopeless. The Bible declaring Romans 5 verse 8. But God commended his love towards us, and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us while we were still filthy. While we were still on loving, while we still had mental issues.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

While we still answered the door with a gun in the hand.

Hmm.

[MCG]

God sent his son to die for us, and that only that he sent his son to die for his enemies. As I said, it’s unfortunate to see these two souls go into eternity and probably pretty much rely at 36 and at 24 or whatever, Roger was the days coming for all of us that we don’t have to meet our maker and whoever says in Isaiah. 53 verse 11. And that Jesus satisfied the father. He said that he shall see the travel of his soul and shall be satisfied. Jesus is the only one who have met the requirements. God standed. He’s the only one who have not sinned. He’s the only one who was not born in sin. He’s the only one that is excluded from the all that has sinned. So he could be the perfect sacrifice. For us, so how can we escape this judgment? How can we escape the punishment for our sins? The Bible says in Romans 10 verse 1913 that if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved, for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture said, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. But there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for the same Lord. Overall is rich unto all that call upon him, for whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be safe. If my question for you today is if you don’t know when you’re going to go, why not make it right with Jesus today?

[Jay]

This is the removing barriers podcast. If the podcast or the blog were a blessing to you, leave us a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don’t forget to share the podcast with your friends, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to removingbarriers.net. This has been the removing Barriers podcast we attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.