Episode 166

Alistair Begg is a well-known and well-respected pastor and Bible teacher who inadvertently set the world of Christian netizens ablaze when he revealed that he encouraged a Christian grandmother to not only attend an LGBTQ wedding, but to also bring a gift. While he had some supporters in this matter, the majority were shocked and appalled by this stance so uncharacteristic of a man who had proven himself to be a faithful man of God for well over 40 years. Responding to the critics, Begg doubled down, rejected calls for repentance, and dismissed them as Pharisaical legalists incapable of nuance and lacking compassion.

In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we will address the obvious questions as to whether or not his counsel was biblically sound and whether his response to criticism was right. However, there is another question to ponder: does social media use complicate obedience to Matthew 18:15-20? Join us on this episode to discuss these questions and more.

[MCG]

Yeah, the principle is this. If God condemns it, I am not celebrating it. That should be the standard. God condemns it. We are not going to celebrate it.

[Jay]

MHM.

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 166 of the Removing Barriers podcast. And in this episode, we will be discussing Alistair Begg and the advice he gave to a broken-hearted grandma concerning LGBTQIA unions and dealing with sin.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things, removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net/donate. Removing Barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Alright, Jay, let’s start with the background of this incident has been way back in January I think, but tell us the details.

[Jay]

Alistair Begg is a Scottish pastor. He is the senior pastor of Parkside Church in Cleveland. OH, and he. Recently came under immense fire for. Something that he revealed in a radio interview in I’d say it was Thanksgiving, Christmas time in 2023. He only mentioned it during that time. Internet caught wind of it and it’s just become a whirlwind of a controversy. It’s a controversy because Alistair Begg is not known as a pastor. Who teaches falsehood? He’s not one of those health wealth and prosperity preachers by any measure. He is a very solid preacher. The controversy was that he was counseling a grandmother who had a grandchild that was a part of the LGBTQIA community, and she was struggling with how to show this grandchild the love of Christ while calling out their sin and drawing them or pointing them to Christ. This grandchild was in the process of getting so-called married. I say so-called because we know that’s not what real marriage is and the child wanted the grandmother to attend the so-called wedding well. The grandmother was conflicted about this, went to Alistair Begg for counsel, and he counseled that she not only go but take a gift to present to them as well, in order to show them the love of Christ and open up more doors, create more opportunities to share the gospel with them. This was done in private council. It’s only during this radio interview that he revealed it in fall or winter of 2023, and then it became a controversy. Early this year, I want to say it was back in February or so late January, February. Where everyone caught wind of what happened and there was instant and swift backlash again because Alistair Begg is not known as a false teacher or heretic, he’s known as a very solid and very capable Bible teacher. Everyone was surprised by the advice that he gave and in response to the. Criticism he doubled down and did not recant. Did not try to explain, and simply he doubled down on his position and that’s what thought everyone up in the tizzy. If you would about the situation.

[MCG]

Yeah, I think we heard about it, at least I heard about it back in late January sometime in January 2024. About this situation and I think at times as Christians that we use the words of the world so often, or we allow the world to take over words that they should not be able to take over. So I think it comes down to at this point. Is, I guess, a question that under mind should be what are the weddings that Christians should and should not? And and before I even dive into that question, I think we need to define what’s the wedding and what’s the marriage. I think if you look up in any dictionary, a wedding is a celebration of a marriage. That’s very important. Definition is very important.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

There’s a celebration of a marriage, of course. There’s other definition. You can say it’s a union of two persons. You might see stuff like that, but for the most part, when you think of a wedding, you think about a celebration. What?

[Jay]

Would you say to someone that says a wedding is the ceremony? Of a marriage like, there’s the ceremony part that everyone goes to. And you know the bride walks on the aisle. All that, and then afterward in the reception, that’s the celebration. What would you say?

[MCG]

I think the entire thing is a celebration, OK, of the marriage. Now for me as a Christian and as someone who believes the Bible is inerrant and infallible, and all the other big words that we like to use final authority concerning everything regarding life and death. I think a marriage is a covenant. To God. Between a man and woman to become one flesh. So a wedding is a celebration of that covenant to God between a man and woman, becoming one flesh. Now we can check Malachi Chapter 2, verse 14, where I’m referring to wedding as the covenant. Keep those definition in mind because I’m going off of my definitions, LGBTQ I. Cannot be in a marriage. They’re in a governmental union and it is not a wedding. It is a celebration of governmental union. I think we need to take back those words because. Many times I think marriage and stuff like that are, for lack of a better terminology, quite under the religious terms. I don’t think the government should be involved in marriage at all. Marriage existed before the government. If you look in Genesis Chapter 2, verse 22 to 24, the Bible says and the rib which the Lord God had taken from man made he a woman and he brought her unto the man. And and Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of a man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh that was even before government was instituted. So therefore, God instituted marriage. God gets to define marriage as the land esquires will say their creator is the definer order. Actually, he said, the designer is the definer. God design it. God gets to define it. So I think as Christians, thinking biblically, what is the marriage? What is the wedding? And going back to James’s saying that marriage was instituted before God, I must say that, you know, just the leader Foundation, as I said before, I personally think the government should still the marriage. But the question kind of back and I’m going to go round about here. But I’m bringing it home should you need the government. For you to say, hey, yes, this person is married when you and I got married, we had to sign papers and we had to. Whatever the case may be to the government of Florida to let them know, hey, yes, we are married. You have to get some kind of permission from them. And then we sign it and send it back in and stuff like that. And now they declare us. Married to the government and marriage is a contract, and you can prove that because we didn’t get pre marriage counseling in Florida and because we didn’t get pre marriage counseling in Florida, we had to read the Florida Handbook on Marriage or whatever they call it I remember. Name of it, but I remembered it clearly because I was wondering the first couple of pages were about marriage. Congratulations. One of the case may be and the rest of the booklet was what would happen if you got a divorce? Hmm. And if you got a divorce and children involved and all this stuff is a contract. The government don’t see marriage as a covenant.

[Jay]

Right.

Yeah.

[MCG]

That you’re making before God to this one person. It’s a contract to the government, but to God. Marriage is a covenant. So when is someone married? When do you become husband and wife? Is it when you sign the paper and turn it into the government? Is it when? You go before God and make that covenant to what we kids maybe should the government be involved? Of course, the Bible sentence Romans, chapter 13, verse one and two. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, for there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever they shall resist the power, resist that the audience of God, and they that resist shall receive. To themselves domination. So the Bible here tell us. Hey, submit yourselves to governmental powers as long as they don’t, asking you to violate the scriptures. First, Peter Chapter 2, verse 17, allow all men love the brotherhood. Fear God, honor the king. So therefore the Bible tells her, hey, uh, but the government, you know, as long as the government is not acting to violate the word of God and we have examples in scripture of marriage. We talk about Adam, Eve. God was the one who literally brought them together and declared them husband and wife. We have examples. In Genesis, where we see Abraham send his servant out to find their wife or his son. So we have examples of celebration. One of Jesus’s first miracle was at a wedding.

[Jay]

Yes.

[MCG]

When he turned the water into wine, so we see that short scripture that we have marriage being performed, we see celebration and then we also see that, hey, we have governmental at least now in our day we have government powers that say, hey, all these things to be declared marriage for me, I think the best way to bring it home is to say this. I believe that you are married when a man and woman made a covenant to God and before witnesses that they, hey, we are becoming one flesh. And I also think that is OK. To sign the governmental papers because they’re not acting to violate the word of God. However, if you live in a culture and their cultures around the world that the government are not involved in marriage, or you might live like, for instance, in 2009 I had the privilege of visiting the kamir people. These people live in huts, they’re wear grass skirts and. The government has no RECO. One of them, they don’t go to the government to be married.

[Jay]

And yet, among them, they know who’s married and who’s not.

[MCG]

Exactly. So I do believe that there’s some culture that involved in marriage. I do believe that the government can be involved even though I don’t think there should be. And also I think the most important part is that covenant you make in before God to each other to become one flesh. So I say all, let’s say this, hey, LGBT quote UN quote, wedding quote UN quote.

[Jay]

Like they OK.

[MCG]

Marriage. It’s not a marriage. It’s not a wedding because a wedding to celebrate of a marriage, and LGBTQI if you’re married to someone of the same sex, is not a marriage. That’s not my opinion. That’s scripture. So going back to the question, what kind of marriage should we be allowed to attend in this case? Where as Christians, where we should allow to attend? Obviously, if there’s two persons of the same sex getting married quote and UN quote, I don’t think we as Christian Bible believing Christian should go or to take a gift because it’s not the marriage. Is a slap in the face of God. If someone who professes to be a Christian and someone who is unsafe or a Christian an unsafe, the Bible says hey, no, they should not be getting married. I don’t think as Christian we should be attending that wedding neither. Anyways I have more but I’ll let you jump in.

[Jay]

I agree with you that there is a stripping and a cheapening of the definition of marriage in our culture today. So much so that not even the church at large is able to defend it. That may be why so many churches are willing to cede ground till the LGBTQIA mafia on this particular subject, they may be thinking, well, what’s the harm in allowing these people to be? Quote UN quote married. We want to be accepting. We want to be tolerant. We want to show them the love of Christ. If we tell them that this is unbiblical and that this is sin, they won’t let us talk to them. So why not see this little piece of ground? But the Bible describes? And I believe it’s in the book of Proverbs that there are certain things that are never, never, never satisfied. The barren womb, for example. And it goes through all these different things. Sin is very similar in the sense that when you seed to it or when you yield to it, it’s never enough. It wants more. Of you more and more and more, until you’re enslaved to. It or until it completely consumes you. Our pastor always says that the devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he may destroy. And that means that when he gets ahold of you, he’ll completely shred you until there’s no semblance of whatever was there. And he’ll completely shred and destroy it. Sin will do that. And so when we fail to understand. That marriage is something that God initiated God instituted, and God set the definitions and parameters for when we forget that all those things, then it’s easy for us to look. You got any other type of union and say? Well, well, why not? It’s not hurting anyone and we want to be loving. Why not? So when it comes to unions that the Bible makes clear that are acceptable, I don’t think the Bible is silent on this male and female created. He them therefore shall a man. Leave his father and mother, not father and father, not mother and mother. Man will leave his father and his mother and will cleave to his wife. Not husband, not wife and wife, a husband and a wife. And they too shall be one flesh. So I think the church needs to be. Unapologetically. I hate to use this word, but I’m thinking of it in the context of others making fun of us for standing firm. We need to be prudish on this particular issue. This is not something that we should cede any ground to secularism or any LGBTQIA mafia. Because when you attack. The Institution of marriage you’re attacking not just marriage, you’re attacking families. You’re attacking children, but you are also attacking. Gods, the Bible says that marriage is a picture of the relationship that Christ has with his bride. Yeah, and so you’re assaulting the very reason Christ came to die for us salvation. And what that looks like to be in right, standing with Almighty God. Sometimes when we talked to people at the door. Or particularly, this is common with children. They will say, well, why am I responsible for Adam’s sin? I wasn’t in the garden. I didn’t eat the fruit. Why are we all sinners? Because of Adam sin. When they ask that question, they don’t understand the federal headship. That Adam has had as the progenitor of the human race in the same way that those that are born again through faith in Christ now have the second Adam have Christ as their head, and what that actually means. It’s not my place to teach. But this is what I’m trying to convey. Is that this is so much more than just a guy and a girl liking each other and making a promise before God and getting married and have raising kids. It’s so much deeper than that. And so if we waffle on these things, if we’re not steadfast, if we are afraid to stand on the word of God when it comes to those things. Else is there to fight for all of what God is trying to talk to the human race about. It can be encapsulated in this institution that we call marriage, and so if we’re talking about two unsaved people, male and female, that’s perfectly fine because male and female created he. Then there’s a common grace for people to be married. Even if they’re not Bible believing Christians, even if they’re not following Jesus Christ, but where a Christian should absolutely put their foot down, is any type of marriage that has any. And I put marriage in quotation, any kind of union between any member of the LGBTQIA community. Community. Any union where an unsaved person is marrying a saved person because that’s expressly forbidden in scripture as well. Those are not weddings that Christians should partake in because of the assault that Union is on the picture of salvation. The picture of Christ with his bride, the church.

[MCG]

Yeah, the principle is this. If God condemns it, I am not celebrating it. That should be the standard. God condemns it. We are not going to celebrate it. So you’re talking about. A safe person unsafe person, as I mentioned before, light and darkness. But make it clear that that does not mix. They don’t go together. They should not be getting married. You should not be attending that wedding. I think that should be the case, and even to bring this home we had a similar situation like that in our family where we had one person. Professing to be saved and married to another person of the opposite sex that clearly wasn’t safe. And there was a little bit of a riff because one side of the family believed that the person who said that they were saved, that they’re not saved, and one person said, hey, this person professed to be saved, and this person is married to someone who clearly is not safe. I’m not going to the wedding. I’m that person didn’t go to the wedding. Yeah. And I can’t fault them because. One person claimed to be saved and clearly was married. One person who wasn’t safe. The rest of the family said, hey, this is too unsafe. People getting married, this person claimed to be saved, is not safe and is marrying someone else who is not safe. So it’s two unsafe people getting married. That’s a kind of a little bit different situation. They kind of follow your conscience there. Do you believe the person is safe? Well, no. I’m going to the wedding. I believe that they made a confession. That a confession they made a profession. Umm. And clearly marry someone who is not safe. I’m not going. Fine. I think there’s room to follow your conscience there because there’s a situation where come down to do you believe one person save one person, not save or whatever case may be. But if you clearly know that there’s one person who saved, married another person who saved to think the Bible says hey, they don’t mix. But here’s the difference between this though. And the LGBTQIA so-called quote UN quote wedding when unsafe person married an unsafe person. The sin is disobedience. They’re disobeying God’s word. But once they get married, the disobedience is no more. More the Bible does not say OK if you are safe and you married unsafe person, you should immediately get a divorce. No, the Bible never.

[Jay]

Says that you’re saying like, if a safe an unsafe person get married, right? The disobedience is in the getting married, but once it happens it’s no more. OK, I’m trying.

[MCG]

Right, right. So once they get married, the disobedience is no more. Yeah, they’re not living in sin for an LGBTQIA. Not only is the Union disobedience, their lifestyle is disobedient to God. So the sin continues. So there’s a big difference between.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

The.

Hey, I’m safe. I’m going to mean unsafe person and they finally get married even though I don’t think Christians should attend that when they get. And then you say, hey, oh, well, they already made the bed. I’m not gonna encourage divorce because God hates divorce. But the sin ends there. The Bible tell us how that saves spouse in terms of the wife should handle unsafe husband. I think that is in first Peter first or second, Peter, November clearly. But the Bible does tell us how. The wife should win her unsafe husband and is not through divorce. And I think the same principle apply if the man is safe and the woman is unsafe. Yeah. So you don’t get a divorce because they are unsafe person. The sin is a disobedient to God, word of marrying the person in the 1st place. But after they got married, the sin is over. So there’s a big difference. Also I think again. Remember the principle. If God condemns it, we don’t celebrate it. If an adult is marrying a child.

[Jay]

MHM.

[MCG]

And I’m getting into some deep waters here because you know what? Determined the child like I’m from the island. At 16, you’re considered for most part an adult. In the US, you’re considered adult at 18. Well, let me phrase that at 16 is the age of consent in the US for most bad for most states, I think it is 18, and we know back in the day may we was about 16. They said. So culture and all kind of stuff. Gonna come to play here?

[Jay]

Culture has an influence there yet.

[MCG]

But there’s an age that we clearly know that someone is a child. Sure. So even a grown man is married an 8 year old. Certainly not going to go to that wedding that.

[Jay]

So Mohammed marrying a nine year old, that would probably abuse, yeah.

[MCG]

That’s. You know, and make sure that’s happening in places around the world. I think in the US there’s some.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

States if you get parents that consent, they got married even at 16, someone argued. As a child, I wouldn’t want my 6 year old daughter getting married or even my 18 year old daughter getting married. But that’s a different topic, but a marriage between an adult and a child is definitely a no no, because I don’t think the Bible encourage that. I think the Bible condemns. That. The last one. Want to bring up is? Divorce and remarry again. This could be an entire episode in itself, but to some extent I would say follow your conscience in this one. If you say you know some people claim hey, Jesus made it clear if it’s for the cause of fornication, then you can divorce and marry someone else. If you hold to that belief and that simplistic, I’m putting it. If you hold to that belief and your spouse cheated on you and you decided that you’re going to divorce your spouse and remarry, you’re comfortable. That can follow your conscience that if you hold to the fact that you should not be allowed to remarry if you’re divorced or whatever. This may be follow your conscience on that one. I think biblical scholars disagree on the divorce and marriage stuff, and that’s a broad topic. Sure. And of course, again, I also have to mention polygamy. You know, if the person is even married to someone else, should we attend another winning for them to take on a second wife or second husband or whatever the case may be? I think the Bible condemns that as well. So again, if God condemned it, I am not going to celebrate it. I think that’s the overarching principle. I think again, talking about principles, the Bible talking about in first Thessalonians 5, verse 22 abstain from all appearance of evil and that is very very important because if you go to one of these one, especially when talking about LGBTQI weddings, I think it’s a poor reflection to your testimony of Jesus Christ. Put it at the same light as going to a bar or nightclub. Who knows? You might go to the bar just to get a drink of water. You might go to the nightclub because you’re lost and you need help, direction or whatever the case may be. They could be legitimate reason. But if someone sees you and know, hey, that person claimed Christ, that could be a Protestant, and again, you might make the argument, hey, in the US that is not so much a big deal. I’m from the islands where everybody literally know everybody else. If you don’t believe me, ask my mom. My mom probably know everybody on the island for some reason. So. But here’s the thing. Join up in the islands. You’ll go to church with the person on Sunday. Sunday night, Monday morning, you’re taking the bus, going to your work or to school or wherever you see someone else from your church. You’re walking down the street, you see someone else from your church. You go to the store, you see someone else from the church, or multiple people from the church or multi people that know you know where you live, know your lifestyle. And the US is a little bit different. It’s big, especially if you live in. The big cities and stuff like that. It’s big. It’s unusual for me to go to Walmart or anywhere and run into a fellow member of my church.

[Jay]

Yeah, it happens, but it’s not very common.

[MCG]

It’s very rare in the islands, at least where I grew up. Everywhere you go, you turn. Is someone you know, someone you go to church with or someone who knows the perfect Christ. So guess I’m gonna say, hey, no one is gonna see me. So what? But God will and God knows anyways.

[Jay]

Yeah. So Alistair Begg told the grandmother to go to the wedding and not just go, but take a gift. And the reason is to demonstrate to that airing. That even though you do not agree with their lifestyle, you don’t hate them. You’ll prove them wrong because his reasoning was that, and the LGBTQ mind. They see Christians and say ohh, these people are hateful, they hate me. They hate everything that I stand for my lifestyle and everything. And he said if you bring a gift then. You will cause the person to reevaluate what they think of you as a Christian and realize, oh, these people are not hateful. They don’t hate me. They even gave me a gift. How wonderful. And perhaps that would open more doors for pointing that person to Christ. Or influencing that person for Christ. So was Alistair Begg’s advice to that grandmother wrong in your opinion.

[MCG]

Yes, it was wrong and it’s not just my opinion. I think Scripture is on my side on this one and it’s wrong because of the principles we just talk about if God condemned it, we do not celebrate it. The appearance principle, the principle of. Abstain from all appearance of evil. I can talk about the conformity principle. I be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that he may prove. What is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. And I think also the stumbling block principle in Romans 14 verse 13. Let us not therefore judge one another anymore, but judge this rather that no man. The stumbling block or cage to fall in its brother’s way. I think that by you going to LGBTQIA, you could be putting a stumbling block before your brother. Because if they know you go and they look up to your whatever the case may be. And they’re struggling with that. Then they took know. Ohh well brother such and such went to that wedding. I guess the lifestyle in the wrong. Maybe you’re going just to. Hey, show your love but you condemn the lifestyle. But for the team over here doesn’t know that then Brother Team said Oh well, this person is conforming to the ways of the world. Over here, they don’t know that. So how many people are you going to explain it to? I think you violate the principles that we. Earlier and also it’s very important I think it’s because and you mentioned this earlier, it is what marriage symbolize. Marriage is a powerful symbol of a man or woman becoming one flesh and it demonstrates an example of Christ’s love for his church, which within 521 to 31 is very long. But I’m going to read it so myself one to another. In the fear of God, wives submit yourself onto your own husband as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife. The world doesn’t want to hear that anymore, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wise be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it. You know what? I’m going to be biased here, but the command to the husband compared to the command to the wife is so weak. The wives does have to submit the Bible. The husband. Love your wife. That just loves them, you know. Even as Christ loved the church and gave himself a. Great.

[Jay]

That’s why you’re the federal head.

[MCG]

Man, that’s a high calling and feminist of today. You know, this bit off topic, but the feminist of today. Ohh, submit submit. Hey, love your wives. Even as Christ of the church. Tell me which one is hotter that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the water. By the word that he might present it to himself. A glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or anything but that it should be wholly and without blame. For what? A man to love his wife as his own bodies, he that Loveth his wife Loveth himself for no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourish and cherish it, even as the Lord, the church, for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall join unto his wife. And they too shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife, even as himself and the wife. See that she ohh reverence her husband. So here.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[MCG]

LGBTQ and all honor are biblical, quote UN quote marriage makes a royal mockery of this symbolism that just read from Ephesians Chapter 5, a big mockery. And that alone is blasphemous. When you go to a, quote UN quote, LGBTQIA wedding that’s making a mockery of God. You were there when you going to that wedding so-called wedding, so-called celebration. You are saying? Hey, Christ and the church can be whatever we conjure up in our mind. So you can be a man and a man can be a woman and a woman, or whatever the case may be. We are making a mockery of symbolism because marriage is not a governmental institution, is a God institution. As I explained earlier. That’s what make it wrong. And that’s what make what he gave to the grandma wrong because it’s a mockery to God, of course. Think about. Second Timothy 3, verse 12. Yeah, and all that. We live God in Christ. We just shall suffer persecution. Why is it wrong again? Because in my opinion, we refuse to suffer the consequences of following Christ. Now I understand what I’m going to say is very, very. Hard. Very, very hard. Say. And I understand this grandma’s love her grandchild. But at the end of the day, the Bible says in Luke chapter 14, verse 26 and 27, if any man come to me and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters. Yeah, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And who’s ever doing that big his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. Christ’s words. Mine your love to the Lord. This is what the verse is saying. Your love for the Lord when compared to that of your family should appear like hatred for your family because you love Christ so. Again, I understand that it’s hard, but when you compare your love for Christ for God and you compare it to your love for your family, love for that sweet child. Your wife, your husband? It should appear as hatred when computer God before the Beckham said it and he hit the nail on the head when he said that, hey, they’re giving us prosperity. They give us, he said the devil give us all these things. But the one thing that he took away from us, at least in the West, is persecution. We refuse. To go through anything for the sake of Christ, yes. Would it be hard for this grandma to maybe even lose communication with their grandchild for a season? Would it be hard if their grandchild become angry with her? And ohh you didn’t come to my wedding? Blah blah blah, stuff like that. That might be just be a cause of falling. Rice and keeping saying, hey, I’m not going to go to some place, I’m going to make a mockery of what Christ declared to be a symbol of Christ in the church here with body back. I’m talking about something similar.

[Voddie Baucham]

Some of you have lost friendships for the sake of the gospel, people whom you’ve loved dearly. Some of you are alienated from family members. For the sake of the gospel. And this is so common now, a number of people in this room, a member of your family, comes out not only as gay, but then they’re gonna have a gay wedding and they invite everybody in the family to the gay wedding. And when you get an invitation to a gay wedding, that’s not just an invitation, it is a theological test. And other members of the family who go to church and identify themselves as Christian, they gladly go to the wedding. And then here you are, the lone holdout. And you’re alienated because all these other folks were good, loving Christians. But you’re a legalistic monster, and now there’s alienation and loss of relationship within your family because of this. What is it? That enables us to continue to hold to the truth of the gospel in the midst of that kind of loss and pain. It is the presence and power of God himself in our lives.

[MCG]

Nothing else and others say this is actually back over to you, Jay Jesus said unto him, in my to you, 20 to 3738, Jesus said unto him, thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And this is the first and greatest commandment. Hey, I understand. I hope I never have to make a decision. Like this, grandma have to make. I hope it never come to my doorstep where I have to contemplate whether or not I’m going to go to the wedding of one of my grandkids because they may. We’re in, quote UN quote someone of the same sex or whatever the case may be. I understand it’s hard, but the question is, what are you willing to give up for the cause of Christ?

[Jay]

Yes, you and I differed when we were talking about this in preparation for the podcast you and I differed quite a bit in the sense that. Your position hasn’t changed. It’s the same now as it was when we were discussing this and before I thought, well, the only scenario in which it would be acceptable for a Christian to go to an LGBTQIA wedding so-called wedding, I should say. Is. If they go there with the express intent and purpose to openly and publicly rebuke and call out what’s happening and call both the participants and the attendees to repentance. So that means in the ceremony, when they say, is there anyone? That feels that these two should not be married. Speak now forever. Hold your peace. That’s where the Christian would stand up and say. No, you should not be married and This is why and I thought, OK, this is the only scenario in which it would be even remotely OK to attend an LGBTQIA union. And I’ve been thinking about it, and I realize now that that wouldn’t be the best way to do things. Number one, what I’m about to say is, in addition to everything you just said. Romans 12/18 calls us to live peaceably with all. 10 Warrens 1218 says if it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Hebrews 12/14 says follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord. So I’m watching. Let me just give a little anecdotal story to prove or to explain what I’m about to say. I’m watching the drama develop between members of the royal family, particularly with Prince Harry and Meghan Markle having left the way they did the drama between them and how the media picks up on who’s attending what, and who’s talking to who. And so in this particular scenario. If Prince Harry doesn’t attend a particular event or doesn’t meet up with his father when he’s in the UK, people notice it and they say ohh because he didn’t meet with his father or because they didn’t go to this event or they didn’t go to that gathering. Must be something there. It actually says something when your presence is not there.

[Jay]

There.

When you don’t attend and so when it comes to the whole LGBTQ IA Union, I’ll I’ll kind of tie the bow here and say that if you do not attend the lack of your presence. Speaks volumes. Everyone will understand what that means when you don’t attend the ceremony and at the same time you’ll have avoided all of the obvious drama that comes with publicly standing up and refuting something that you didn’t have to attend. Or you shouldn’t have attended in the 1st place. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t call it out. It’s just that there’s no need to be melodramatic about it. There’s no need to be obtuse or obnoxious about it. The simple lack of your presence is screams. Loudly. Anything that you could possibly say if you were to attend and stand up and make. Ruckus, so I’ve changed my mind on that, but yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree. There’s no scenario in which he told the grandmother the right thing. We’ll get into this later on when he doubled down, he talked about giving her advice with a grandfather hat on. In other words, he wasn’t thinking pastorally. He was thinking more along the lines of familial and. Cultural and feelings and wanting to preserve the ties that bind and all these different things and in that particular scenario. He failed to give her sound biblical counsel. He succeeded in perhaps telling her how to keep them around for a little bit longer, making conversations a little bit easier, avoiding the awkwardness, avoiding the. What you say is the price of following Christ, but he didn’t give her biblical sound advice. He gave her very bad advice, and we’re going to talk about this later, but I’m not pointing a finger at him and coming down hard on him and saying, Alistair Beg you knucklehead. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that in particular. Instance Beggs advice to that grandmother was wrong and there’s just no two ways about. It was very, very wrong and. If the advice that he gave the grandmother was wrong, then the question is how should we counsel someone that’s in that particular situation? If someone came to me and said Ohh, I’ll even give a personal example actually and I look back on this often and I wonder man, what should I have said? I was caught off. Guard and was not. Really prepared to speak in the time that was allotted me. I was working at a well known fast food restaurant. It’s one of those upper scale fast food restaurants, not like McDonald’s or Burger King. It was more like a Panera Chipotle type of fast food chain and the overwhelming majority of the people that worked there were of the homosexual strain. And so one day. Out of the blue, one of them came to me and put his arm around me and pointed to someone. And talked about how. He was so attracted to this particular guy, this out or the other, and I was so shocked by what he was saying to me that I froze and as soon as he said it, he was off. He went into the kitchen and was doing whatever he was doing and I completely missed an opportunity to respond there because it happened so quickly. And what do you do when you’re in a situation where? Our entire culture has done a complete 180 on this particular subject where not even 4050 years ago it was completely unthinkable to celebrate this sort of thing. And now we’re at the position where there are laws. Us enshrining this unbiblical lifestyle, how should we counsel someone that is in this grandmother’s position? Granted, of course, you and I were not pastors, obviously, but we may find ourselves in a position as Christians perhaps talking to someone who is in that situation or who has come to us for counsel. How would you counsel someone in the grandmother’s similar situation?

[MCG]

Well, I might be a little bit hard nosed on this one because as you say, I’m not a pastor, but I think along the line and this again going to be very difficult to hear if you’re in this situation, but I think. Firstly, I would say be prepared to suffer the consequences of following Christ. I can’t stress that enough because in the West I think we are living such easy lives that when we have situation to stand on the word of God and to stand and be quote UN quote persecuted, we buckle yeah. And then we rise up and say Oh yeah we love. God so much. Again, I’m not saying I’m any super Christian or anything. I hope I will stand if the day come from my persecution. I don’t know if I would, but to me, maybe paid to suffer the consequences. Of following Christ and also understanding, loving someone. Does that mean you upset or condone all their behaviors? I don’t know when the definition of love became condoned and acceptance.

[Jay]

Well, you mentioned it before, how the LGBTQ community has hijacked language, what it means to love someone, what it means to hate someone, what it means to condemn someone. All of those have different definitions now.

[MCG]

Yeah. So I would say, you know, stand on the word of God, stand on the word of God. You can love your grandchild and still stand on the word of God. He can explain to the grandchild the reason why you can’t come and don’t have to be preachy or scream in their face. To repent well, you can clearly tell them. Hey, I love you, but I love God more and I can’t. I can’t come and don’t give a gift because again, a wedding, a celebration. So you go.

[Jay]

And a gift would be affirming, wouldn’t it? A gift would be affirming, yeah.

[MCG]

Exactly. In my opinion it would be, you know, and I found a quote from voted bacon that I wanted to say. And he said in the West the devil give us praise, position and possession and those things bring us comfort or what the enemy withholds from us in the West is persecution. And that is what we, Jed. My question is, what are you willing to give up for the sake of? What are you willing to give up for the sake of Christ? Would that be your grandchild? Hopefully you don’t have to give up a grandchild. Episode 51. I think we had Matthew Cashner. How worried barriers removed Matthew Gardner gave his testimony of being a homosexual and how his parents dealt with him during that time. And if you want the epitome of how you should deal. With a loved one who is in a homosexual relationship, LGBTQI relationship. Listen to that bit. So I think much of catching parents handle it perfectly and biblically, according to the testimony that he gave. And he was one eventually over because of their strong love for Christ. You know Philippians, chapter 3, verse one to 10 again, long passage. But I think it’s important. Finally, my brethren rejoice in the Lord to write the same things to you. To me, indeed is not grievous, but for you is safe, a way of dogs. We way of evil workers we we have the confession, for we are of the. Vision. We worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and we have no confidence in the flesh, though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any man thinketh that he had, whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more this is Paul speaking, circumcise the 8th day of the stock of Israel of theCHIVE. Benjamin and Hebrew of the Hebrews as touching the law. A Pharisee concerning zeal, persecuting the church, touching the righteousness which is in the law. Blameless. But what things were gained to me. In those, I counted love for Christ. Yeah, doubtless. And I called all things, but laws for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ. Jesus, my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things. I do count them. But Dong that I may win Christ and be found in him. Not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, that I may know him. And the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering being made conformable unto his death.

[Jay]

The Fellowship of his suffering make conformable to.

[MCG]

His death. Look, I don’t want to come across as a super Christian because I’m not. I’m flesh and blood, just like everyone else. And I don’t know how I will respond if I’m being persecuted for my fate. I probably would. We can’t. And whatever the case may be, don’t want to come across as, hey, this guy. So whatever case may be, but I’m telling you, we live such weak, sissify Christian life in the West and in the US that something like this is an issue. It shouldn’t be because the word of God is clear. And I will say, hey. Stand upon the word of God. Yes, it’s painful. Yes, it might be ill, Nathan. Might be, but stand upon the word of God, your love for Christ should appear as hatred for your family. It’s hard knows. Some might say it might not even be practical, but show me your practical from the scripture will be my question. You’re listening to the room of embarrassed podcast we are talking about Alistair Begg and LGBT Union and dealing with sin. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

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So now that we’re back from the break, let’s continue this conversation about dealing with sin. How do we counsel people? How do we deal with the sin itself?

How are Christians to deal with sin and unbelievers? Or as well as in the lives of believers, because it sounds like this particular grandmother was consistently trying to witness. Praying for them, pointing out their lifestyles as being in opposition to Christ and his word. So if you have someone, whether saved or unsaved, and I realize that addressing their sin will follow different stripes. But how should we be addressing sin in the lives of people?

[MCG]

Well, firstly I will say I’ll shoot it over to you, get your opinion as well, but firstly I will say if you’re dealing with animal life of the umm. Believer. I think you come down to. 1. Thing you present to them the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Jay]

Hmm.

[MCG]

I don’t think you need to go to them and point every little thing that they’re doing, and this lifestyle is wrong and that lifestyle is wrong. You present to them their. Gospel of Jesus Christ. Let the Holy Spirit convict them of Sinner judgment to come and pray that they will be saved, and that’s how you deal with sin unbelief. The dynamics a little bit different if you’re living with an unsafe person, like for instance, or if you’re a family member because you don’t want to be obnoxious and every day you see the person you tell them, you know, I need to tell you need to be repent and get saved and stuff like that. I don’t think you need to be in their face like that if you’re living with them. Of course, if the opportunity to present this stuff you want to present the gospel. But what is more important, when you live in an unsafe person is your testimony of Jesus Christ in your life.

[Jay]

MHM.

[MCG]

More so than constantly verbally witnessing to them, that’s different than if you go into a stranger’s door and knocking in the door and trying to present the gospel to them because that person doesn’t know you. They don’t know your lifestyle, but if your situation where you’re living and interact with the person every day, your lifestyle become even more important there than even your verbal testimony. And I think that. This biblical principle that I talk about, the unsafe wife, the Bible talking, she will win in by her conversation or by her testimony.

[Jay]

The word.

[MCG]

So when it comes to unsafe person, I think you present to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. For the safe person, well, the Bible gives us guidance on how to deal with these things. Of course, in the terms of offense, the Bible says might 1815 to 7. Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between Dee and him alone. And if he shall hear thee, thou hast gain thy brother, but he will not hear thee. Then take wit. The one or two. More and in the amount of two or three witnesses, every word may be established, and if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church. But if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. So here the goal is to restore fellowship is to restore the brother, true confession instant and forsaking them in proverbs 28 and verse 13, the virus city that covered his sin shall not prosper, or whose have confessed and forsaken them shall have mercy. So the important thing here. Is in all of this Bible say alone first, then between two or three witnesses, and if then the person does not continue, does not confess and forsake or repent. Take it before the church. We of course become a church issue before the past, and the deacons for church discipline. So I think that.

[Jay]

That’s.

[MCG]

Against how you deal with believers when it comes to sin and stuff like that to Bible make it clear alone first. They’re still not repenting. Get two or three witnesses. They’re still not repenting before the church. And if after the church Bible say, hey, treat them like a heathen. I’m not quite sure I’ve ever seen it done that someone actually got treated like a heathen, but. I think the Bible is clear and the process of restoring a brother who is in sin.

[Jay]

I wonder if that speaks to the weakening of our churches and that we haven’t seen church discipline carried out as it’s described here in Matthew 18. We hardly get to know each other as church members well enough for this to actually take place. Perhaps in the church there seems to be this sort. Of. Come on, you know. Non judgmental. Sort of. You know that’s not to talk about these things that I don’t want to say. It’s sweeping it under the rug, but maybe there’s a hesitance to effectively deal with these things, perhaps not in every church and not in every gathering. But I mean, in the church as a whole, if you don’t see it done often, then that’s indicative of the weakness of the church. It doesn’t have teeth to go after. Sin in that particular way, and I’m sure that’s another whole can of worms open up.

[MCG]

Yeah, I think the principle here is that private sin should be dealt with privately. Public sin should be dealt with publicly. Again, I’m coming. An island perspective and also the US perspective, what I see how truck discipline is carried out in the islands is a little bit different than up here. And again the cultures are different. So it’s other fair comparison. And again everybody in the islands kind of know everybody, especially the small islands like where I’m from. You know if you have a Big Island like Jamaica maybe not. But in the small islands that where I’m from, if someone is in public sin, everybody kind of know, let’s make it a really bad thing. Quote UN quote. Let’s say it’s a a man professing to be a Christian, active in the church, church member, but then he’s sleeping with his girlfriend or whatever.

[Jay]

MHM.

[MCG]

It’s not going to be long before people in this village know it comes back to the church and bunch of people know. So the pastor has to execute discipline, saying in a somewhat of a public way in terms of of a process he might go through. I’m not saying you’re going to get a whooping or something, but public way up here what I’ve noticed.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

Is most of the time the people just leave the church and move on. They move to a different church. Or it is done very privately like I remember that growing up the pastor will have a meeting. I’m talking when I kind of come to age as a member and can attend those meetings. The past I remember the past that many times will have the Members stay back after service or call a special business meeting or whatever and discuss and say hey. Brother, social search or sister social search was. You know, falling in the same whatever the case may be and going to be on the church discipline, he would not say that on the Sunday morning with non members and stuff like that, but everybody kind of know because of the size of the country or the island. But I’ve never seen that done up here. I’ve never gone to a business meeting or whatever and and the past are kind of blatantly say hey. This person has fallen the same, and they’re gonna be on the church. Discipline depends on the position of the person. They might make an announcement to the members that the person you know falling, saying would never say what the sin is. And maybe can just say, hey, this is what we’re going to do, but you never hear anything else about it kind of thing or if it’s private, you never hear anything about it completely. And I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong. I’m just saying that I think culturally there’s a different because, for instance, I can get up and you know, let’s say I fall in saying I can drive 500 miles north-south or whatever. And go to another church. No one knows me. No one knows anything kind of move on. It can’t do that in the island, for one, the most you can jive is probably 10 miles, and then you go to someplace else and everybody know you’re over there. So yeah. Yeah, that’s the person who he just left the church and he came over here because he want. You can’t do that. Yeah. Everybody know the baggage you’re bringing here. No one knows the baggage you bring when you move. You know, 1200 miles from where you’re living to in another state. So is a little bit different. But I think the Bible principle room is the same. Well.

[Jay]

OK, that’s interesting because. This entire scenario is different as well because this all happened online and that’s a dynamic. I think that we need to address because when he talked about this grandmother and things began piling on in late January, February of 2024, you had pretty much. Every Christian YouTube. Whether they are pastor or layman or just Christian content creators on YouTube piling on talking about what he said. Why is it wrong? Why is it right? Like the conversation was intense surrounding this particular issue. And so this was done publicly. It was done on the interwebs. On the Internet for everyone to see and for everyone to hear. Here, and so everyone on the Internet jumped on it. And that is something that we need to evaluate as Christians. Is that the biblical response? Because the Bible says go to the person one-on-one if they won’t hear you take two or three address the person again. And if they won’t hear the two or three take it to the church. And if he’s not listening to the church, treat him as an unbeliever. And so. Well, the Internet has changed that dynamic. Someone can say something, say online or on a podcast, in an interview. Whatever. And everyone is jumping on this one person. It can be incredibly overwhelming to respond to something so drastic. Maybe that’s why he felt the need to respond like he did. Because if you have like 1000 people. Pointing at this one thing, this one thing, this one thing and all it takes is just one person, and you’re bombarded by all of this negativity. Perhaps that shines a light on how we as Christians are responding to sin in this new social media digital age that we’re living in now as well.

[MCG]

I agree that the Internet does add a different dynamic to this and.

[Jay]

It amplifies things.

[MCG]

We’re sure if it wasn’t for the Internet and advancement of. This. Let’s say it was back when we just had cable TV and radio, so to speak, and even if he had said this and. Radio. We wouldn’t have a platform to respond to it here because we’re part class, but I think also this is where the local body kind of come into play because I don’t necessarily think that it’s my job to get a hold of Alistair Begg and say, hey, you know, that advice wasn’t the best advice because one, I’m not a part of his local body.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

[MCG]

And he doesn’t know me from Adam, so to speak. So I think if anyone in this congregation. Believed that he had sin or believed that advice was wrong. They should not first turn to YouTube and podcast. They say. My pastor said this and it was wrong. I’m going to condemn it here over the stuff they should have gone to Alistair and said, hey, Pastor, I love you. I think that advice was, and I’m sure that people need this congregation. I can’t imagine there’s no one in the congregation. Who doesn’t believe that the advice was poor?

[Jay]

Well, I’m sure there’s a handful, but According to him, everyone on his pastoral staff thinks that he gave good counsel and he explicitly. Said that, his friends and family are shielding him, or at least were shielding him from the onslaught of criticism that he received online, which. Yeah, right. But what he said that was worrying was that everyone on his pastoral team said that he did the right thing and given that.

[MCG]

Well, the Internet Internet can be brutal.

[Jay]

Some of the advice now that’s.

[MCG]

Well, that’s coming from him. And again, I don’t know anybody in this church to knowing anything about it. So it could be right. Unfortunately. Again, I don’t know these people, but it could just be yes, man. Yes, I don’t believe. You stuff because.

[Jay]

Or he could be exaggerating.

[MCG]

Yeah, all the bread and butter comes from him. So you know, I’m not going to condemn the. And who is basically paying my salary kind of thing. So again, I don’t know, to be honest, I had never heard of Alistair Begg until this happened. Never. I’ve heard of. Wow. John MacArthur. I’ve heard of vote Beckham. Some other preachers out there, but I’ve never heard of him before this happened. Then.

[Jay]

Yeah. That’s amazing to think about. He’s actually one of my favorite teachers to listen.

[MCG]

So. To so, so to say that because this happened, I. Heard of him and heard of him in dislike? No, we are all fallible men. I’m sure if you go through all 160, whatever. Plus episode we have done. Sure. I’m sure the things that I say that people say. Oh yeah, MCG, that’s totally wrong. You’re following me again. I wouldn’t put him in the bracket of TD Jakes and.

[Jay]

Yeah. No, no.

[MCG]

Joel Estina stuff, like I say. Oh, no, he’s a false preacher or whatever case, man. I think he was wrong here, but I don’t think this is necessarily make him like, look at that false prophet or whatever term our heretic or whatever I think is the fault of men. Just like all of us. Sure, he gave bad advice in my opinion, and I think Scripture is on my side and again at the end of the day you move on. But again, I think he was wrong. I don’t want to be had on him because again, I don’t know the man. I haven’t even heard of him.

[Jay]

Her heretic. Right.

[MCG]

For that. But at the end of the day, hey, I don’t think going to LGBTQIA unions is the best move.

[Jay]

Yeah. So in response to the backlash, Alistair Begg doubled down. He said he refused to recant. He refused to repent and he said a lot of other things as well. And so I’d like first to listen to some of the clips in which he addresses what he calls the storm in the teacup, in other words. Everyone’s making a big deal out of nothing, is what he’s saying. It’s a storm in a teacup. Now, there are certain things that he said in response to the backlash, and to me, these things are very, very concerning. And of course I’m a nobody. I’m not a pastor. I’m not a preacher, I’m not a teacher. I’m just a regular Jane. But his response is a little bit. Concerning, but I also wonder if he responded in that way because of the amplification of the response on.

[MCG]

I think it was justified.

[Jay]

On the Internet, I think it’s absolutely that as well, but I want to be as generous as possible because I know that he’s a faithful preacher of the word of God, and so let me just pull up these two clips. But just by way of quick summary, he not only refused to repent, he claimed that he didn’t have to, and that everyone accusing him of giving the grandmother wrong advice. Is Pharisaical in their. Position. And he also preached a sermon in which he pulled up Luke 13, Luke 15, the parable of the Prodigal Son, and comparing the people who were calling out the issue as the older brother and accusing them of lacking compassion. And all of these different things he talked about how he doesn’t identify with American fundamentalism. For evangelicalism and he insults them as being incapable of determining nuance in situations and being too hard lined about things. And so there are a lot of things in his response that are worrying. I’ll play a few clips here. Here’s the first clip.

[Alistair Begg]

In that conversation with that grandmother, I was concerned. And about the well-being of their relationship more than anything else. Hence my counsel, don’t misunderstand that in any way at all. If I was on the receiving end of another question about another situation from another person in another time, I may answer absolutely differently. But in that case I answered in that way and I would not answer in any other way, no matter what anybody says on the Internet as of the last 10 days. If that were the case, I would never. If that were the case, I would never. I should never have said it in the 1st place. If you want to me to repent and to. Repent to repent. I I repent daily because I say a lot of things that I shouldn’t say. I mean check with Sue, but the fact of the matter is, I’m not ready to repent over this. I don’t have to.

[Jay]

OK. So that’s the first part of his response and to me, that’s problematic. I’d like to hear what you think MCG, because he said above all else, he was concerned about preserving the relationship between the grandmother and her grandchild. Above all else above what thus saith the Lord above what Scripture has clearly delineated as sin, as proper conduct for Christians above all else? Your thoughts?

[MCG]

I think my thought is clear based on what I said earlier. What are you willing to give up for the cause of Christ above all else?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Again, if you say, hey, MTG, you’re very hard nose in this episode and I will agree, I come across a very hard nose. I may come across, maybe I don’t loving in terms of my. Soon, but I do understand the relationship. I do understand that the grandmother doesn’t want to lose fellowship with her grandchild. However, again, I ask, what are you willing to give up for the cause of Christ above all? Else. Let’s go back to what Pastor Todd said. Love, my friend does not win. True twins. Yeah. And of course, that the Bible says that came full of grace and truth. And we have to have a balance. He was perfectly balance of grace and truth. We have to have that balance. But at the same time, we don’t celebrate what God condemns.

[Jay]

That’s great.

[MCG]

So while I can become passionate, there’s come a point where you have to say, hey, no, because I can’t take it so far. It’s so I hate to use this illustration, so forgive me, but if someone come and says hey, be compassionate with me and allow me to have you with my wife out of compassion. Do I do that because I want to be compassionate? Compassion has to end with sin. Begin. And and yeah, to me, you’re saying it’s OK to sin because you’re being compassionate. And to me again, that’s.

[Jay]

Wrong. Yeah, I think if we were to fill in the blank with any other sin that this grandmother is dealing with, let’s say that your child is abusing drugs and you want to be compassionate. The child comes to you. Asks for money because they need a fix. You want to be compassionate, you want to reach out, and you don’t want to make them angry and close the door for fellowship between them. Do you give them? The money to go and pursue that fix, that drug, because it’s compassion you want to preserve that relationship above all else? Of course not. What about talked about this before? He talked about how where we talked about LGBTQ when we’re talking about LGBTQIA situations, even in the pulpit, before they talk about it. There’s all of these disclaimers and all of these caveats and all of these apologies and all of these you have to set it up and say, well, I love gay people and I don’t hate gay people, and I’m not against you and I’m not this or that. And you have all these qualifiers before you get to what the saith the Lord, right we’ve become. What is it called when like you take the edge off the teeth? Weak. Yeah, you do. You weaponize. The weaponize is not the right word. But when it comes to addressing sin, we’re afraid to. And that’s a problem in this particular instance. Alistair Begg almost spits out the word. Repent as though that were some dirty word that doesn’t apply to him as though he doesn’t need to. He’s never had. Well, I know he says he repents daily, but in this particular instance, where there’s such a clear line in the sand about what good counsel is, he almost spits out the word. Incredulous. Repent. Repent. For what? That I find a little. Bit troubling that he.

[MCG]

He does come across as pride.

[Jay]

To me, prideful, yes, he continues here.

[Alistair Begg]

Now. Let me say something that would be a. Little explosive.

[Jay]

And notice how his congregation doesn’t seem to be any pushback there. There just seems to be full support, but anyway, I digress. Here, he continues.

[Alistair Begg]

I’ve lived here for 40 years and those who know me best know that when we talk theology, when we talk stuff I I’ve always said I am a little bit out of sync with the American evangelical world for this reason that I am the product of British evangelicalism. Represented by John Stott, Martin Lloyd Jones, Eric Alexander, Sinclair Ferguson, Derek Prine, I am a product of that. I have never been a product of American fundamentalism. I come from a world in which it is possible for people to actually grasp the fact that there are nuances in things. Those of you who are lawyers understand this. Everything is not so categorically clear that if you put one foot out of this box, you gotta be removed from the box forever.

[Jay]

OK, so notice the insult there to anyone that is fundamentalist in their views and they’re holding to scripture to say that it’s wrong to give that grandmother that advice. Your fundamentalist and you are incapable of grasping the nuance, he says. In these different things, because he comes from British evangelicalism. So number one, there is a I don’t want to call it a sewing discord, but there is this idea. That. British evangelicalism is somehow superior or better or. More nuanced or more sophisticated than American fundamentalism? And if you disagree with him, you’re an American. Taking that too far, that seems to be.

[MCG]

What I heard? Well, what I heard initially was that he’s pulling his resume. Yes. So here’s my resume.

[Jay]

I. Associated with these great theologians, that’s where I come from.

[MCG]

And you can go back to that scripture that’s read with Paul where Paul mentioned basically his resume.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

And he said he called them. But don’t alister. You, are you counting? Are you counting all those things? But Dong?

[Jay]

Yeah, help them. But dung. Yeah, that’s great. That’s a really good. Really good. Really.

[MCG]

But at the same time, when it comes to American evangelicalism, I can understand that I’m not the product of American evangelicalism. Sure, I’m from the islands in the Caribbean. Yeah, we kind of do things a little bit differently so I can understand where you’re coming from. And I’m from the islands. We do nuance there, Alister. And I’m saying you’re wrong. So. What’s your point of going back to England? OK, I’m going back to the Caribbean. I still think you’re wrong.

[Jay]

Sorry, the way you said that was pretty funny, but this is no. Laughing matter? Yeah, but at the end of the.

[MCG]

Hey. Hey. I gotta said, I don’t think that put him in the bracket of a heresy or heretic or false teacher or whatever case may be I. It’s basically pride at this point, and whatever the case may be, I think this is the public issue and I think you should have at least say, you know what, make it clear. And I’m not saying he stands with the LGBTQIA community or anything like that.

[Jay]

It’s pride.

[MCG]

But at least you can say, hey, you know. What? Maybe the advice wasn’t the best advice. You know what? I would have still encouraged her to go, but maybe the advice would the best advice and at the end of the day, you. Know what you. Shouldn’t have even made this public. Yeah, you should have known that. The world that you inhabit, the people that listen to you outside of how many 100 people that go to your church the rest of the world listening to you go to say, hey, you know what? There’s some things that just don’t. Put on Internet, I have a podcast that is something I don’t put on Internet because you know. Hey and I don’t have the size of audience that you have, so.

[Jay]

And his reach is massive. He’s on radio stations all throughout the country. In fact, as a result of having doubled down on this American, I think it’s called American Family Radio. The AFR took down all of his time slots. You know how radio stations have time slots for different ministries. They completely took him out.

[MCG]

And he was disinvited from some conference John MacArthur was having.

[Jay]

Yes, the he was disinvited from Shepherd’s conference as well. So there’s another section in his response that I think is interesting and telling. Telling in the sense that two things, number one, we should be praying for Alistair, that the Lord would open his eyes to the pride that we are all susceptible to, that we are all vulnerable to that. We are all victims of and partaken. Praying for him, but also watching, lest we fall as well. Just being mindful of the different ways in which we’re being prideful. The different ways in which we fall, particularly when we’re confronted with sin. That’s a very difficult thing. Again for our listeners, I hope that you can sense that we’re not coming across as bashing Alistair Begg. He has been a faithful preacher. Of God’s word for many, many, many years. So this is not us bashing him. This is just addressing an issue that I think that the church is waffling on, that the church is not standing firm on this LGBTQIA virus that persists, that we seem to be hesitant to confront head on. So here’s Alistair Begg continuing toward the end of his response. With more of doubling down, that is particularly concerning to me MCG. We’d love to hear what you think about this.

[Alistair Begg]

To monogamous relationship between one man and one woman for life. Amen. And at that they stood up and walked. Out. Well, why didn’t somebody catch that one for me? You know what? I’m glad they didn’t. And I’ll tell you why. Because if I’ve got to go down on the side of one or the other, I’ll go down on this side. I’ll go down on the site of compassion, with people actually accusing me of just weakness rather than go down on the side of condemnation. Which? Closes any doors of opportunity for future engagement with those who know exactly what we believe about the Bible and about Jesus, and about so on. So you know, I I hope that this is helpful. I I think as long as you understand that my response to one grandmother whom I have never met was not in any way a blanket recommendation to all Christians to attend. LGBTQ weddings there was nothing to do with that at all. If I was misguided in any way, it was I allowed my grandfatherly hat to take over. It was my personal opinion. As I sensed what was best, as I learned about the individual and specific situation.

[Jay]

All right. So then that particular instance before that clip, he was saying that he didn’t understand why people were coming down so hard on him because before when he was talking to a group in California somewhere and he was expressing and putting his foot down on the biblical definition of marriage being between one man and one woman. Many people in the audience got up and left because they were an LGBTQ supporting. Group and he wondered, well, why didn’t anyone? Talk about that. The reason why is I think is because you were preaching what thus saith the Lord, what is there to say? You were saying what the Bible says you were in agreement with the Scriptures and those who were not got up and left. There’s nothing noteworthy or there’s no responding to that, that needs to happen in this particular instance you gave. Again, we’re beating a dead horse you gave. Terrible counsel to someone who came to you for Biblical counsel, and now everyone’s calling you out on it. And it’s apparently an issue. The people who are calling you out are pharisaical and not nuanced enough and not of the right theological stock. That’s the issue there. And again, he mentioned that he was responding to a woman that he had never met and thinking of it in terms of a grandfather wanting to preserve that relationship and it like he said it at the first clip above all else. And that’s the issue. Alistair Begg should know, and all of us should know that when you have a platform like his, you influence a lot, a lot, a lot of. People’s impact of the words you say and the things you do cannot be underestimated, and there are people who are looking to you to help them understand what the scriptures say about a particular issue. And if you say something like this, naturally, they’re going to think that Alistair Begg is OK with Christians attending LGBTQI weddings. There’s no other way to interpret that. Why else would you even make that? Public if that’s not where you stood and I should be careful, I don’t want to come across as accusing him of being OK with LGBTQ weddings because I know he’s not. But to put that out. There is to in some way or another, endorse or support or deem OK to go to LGBTQIA weddings, your thoughts CG?

[MCG]

Well, I think that he was telling the truth in that. Last clip and.

[Jay]

Telling the truth in what way?

[MCG]

In terms of, I think he was taking it in isolation. Hey, this grandma have a unique situation. This is my advice to this person and my advice to someone else.

[Jay]

Mm-hmm.

MHM.

[MCG]

When the nuances are different, will be different. The problem is. Your followers, quote UN quote, would not see it that way. They’re going to be someone out there who says, well, Alistair Begg says that it’s OK for me to go to my relatives who are gay. Weddings gonna coat and take them a gift. That’s what they’re going to hear. So even though I think the advice is wrong, I think the bigger problem is. That you make it public because even if I agree that there might be some situation where you might possibly. Go. You don’t make that kind of thing public because your pastor, the flock, is going to take it in generality. Oh, so I can go to. Mine. Son’s wedding, even though he’s married and another man, that’s where the problem lies again, I think I’m taking a little bit harder nose on it. I think you should not go. I think is the most loving thing you can do is not going and standing up the word of God and true love. Christ and I agree reasonable minds. And differ, but I think that’s the problem, dear. He made it public more so than even the advice itself.

[Jay]

And so the backlash is going to be public. And now, in this social media age, the backlash is going to be immediate, and it’s going to be amplified, of course. So what I found problematic is the accusing your brothers of being Pharisees. I find that really a problem problem of wearing that brand. Other hat caring about the relationship above all else that really is problematic. Saying that you don’t have to repent and that somehow because you come from different theological stock as he said that somehow there’s an issue with fundamentalism if you hold to the basic tenets and the truths of God’s word that somehow that you’re in the wrong for that those are all. Very problematic responses to this situation, and so my prayer for Alex. Your bag and for all of us, when we’re confronted with our sin, is that we would repent. Absolutely. There are others that are calling for him to come under church discipline. I know the BTWN guy is calling for that, but yeah, definitely the responses are problematic and we should be praying for our pastors wholesale anyway. They are a prime target. The enemy knows that if he can take down the shepherd, the sheep. Scatter and so there’s definitely a lot to pray for in this particular situation. So obviously the response to Alistair Beck has been intense, but he dismisses it as a storm in the teacup and for the most part it seems that as of this recording, many folks have moved on. But it it still hasn’t been resolved. Now. His contemporaries there are no paper weights. We’re talking people like John MacArthur’s the John Pipers the vote. Vacuums of the world what do they have to say about this?

[MCG]

Well, I have some clips of some. Pastors John McCarthy voted back on that either. Said something about it. Not all of them are in response to him, but what they had to say. But I want to read an article here before I played those clips. The third article is does Alistair Begg have a point about gay weddings? I’m just gonna read some of it. I’m gonna read all of you pretty long. A contentious debate among. Believers was reignited last week and this was written back in January. The fire some erupted after advice from pastor and Bible teacher Alistair Begg surface where beg advised a grandmother that she should attend her grandchild’s wedding to a transgender individual and to bring her gift. So I’m going to skip down a little bit, he said. I’m not surprised by the opposition he has received. This is a painful, familiar issue. Of me over a decade ago, my identical twin brother married another man. After much wrestling and prayer, my wife and I decided to attend the wedding. I’m gonna skip down a little bit again, he said. When my wife and I decided to attend my brother’s wedding, we do so knowing be in a shadow of a doubt that he and his partner had no question where we stop. Yeah, you know, party may not have a question. We used to, but what about everyone else? What about all the questions? Are going. To be anyways, I go on where we stood biblically and relationally. If we were not confident of this, we would have felt guilty of passive approval. My brother was in a relationship with his partner for several years before they marry. Over those years, we had very direct and. Honest conversation. Again, call it. It’s not a marriage. They didn’t get married. All right, I’m going to slip down a little bit. My brother and I even had a heated discussion the day before the wedding. There would be no way to mistake our motives. I was abundantly clear that we were not celebrating or endorsing their choice. In fact, the first word out of the officiant at the ceremony were now we know that there are some here that disagree with this Union, but they have chosen to be here because they love them. For that, we thank you. We attended the ceremony at the demonstration that no matter what. Choices. They mean we love them. I think there’s other ways they can show love anyway. I believe that the particle logical fallacy is driving many of the responses of begged advice and to disc conflicted grandmother, and has been at the heart of the debate since we had faced this reality almost. Ten years ago, I call false equivalency fallacy of false equivalency is an informal fallacy in which equivalent is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. A flawed reasoning here is that presence and celebration are the same thing. If you’re present, you are by default celebrating. I think the false equivalency. Is on your part because you’re going to a celebration, but saying you’re not celebrating a wedding is a celebration. And you’re going to the celebration, but you’re going just to be present, but you’re not celebrating. So again, remove this. What else can I say? Can I go to a strip joint and tell my wife? Well, I was just present. No. What other sin do we condone in this way? Calling it presents and celebration. No, what other evil do we condone? And put present at celebration in a different bracket, you’re going to a celebration. Whether not you’re happy and joyful or you just sitting down and not clapping. You’re at the celebration anyway, he said. I’m currently deep in my 40s and over the years I have known many parents who not only attend, but in many cases even funded the heterosexual wedding. Ceremonies of their children who were marrying partners they would not have chosen. Many of these parents were extremely grieved by the Union. Again, who do, who do you, then? False equivalency.

[Jay]

Not the same thing. Yeah, not the same thing.

[MCG]

At all. They go into a heterosexual wedding. So I mean, and parents disagree. Yeah. No, I do believe that children should. Follow their parents advice on their partners in the. West. We don’t have parents necessarily choosing the partner for the child. It’s great to get the blessing of your parent and I think children should seek that, but I don’t think the Bible says that thou shall marry the person your parent asked to marry, or the parents set you up with or whatever the case may be. But the Bible make it clear that you should. Marry to someone of the same sex. That would make it clear they should marry an unsafe person. So if two Christians are getting married appearances, I agree with the marriage. Yeah, you might say, you know what? It’s not the best way to show honor for your parents, but if they’re both adults. It’s not the same thing you’re talking about. For the equivalency. It’s literature. This article of your false equivalency.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[MCG]

Anyways, I’m going to leave it there because you’re going to talk about God being present at every gay wedding and difference between this God manifested presence and his omnipresence and all that stuff, which of course we know God is omnipresence, so God is present there. But when we’re talking about God being present, we’re more talking about of the moving of the Holy Ghost. The manifest as present as you call it. So I think that’s important. Because this guy and I didn’t check, the person wrote this article. But those are some of the people that come in to the defense of Alistair Begg and I’m like. If that’s the strongest argument that presents all the equal celebration, there’s a lot of problem here with this. And again, it goes back to what I said earlier, what are we willing to give up for Christ? Are we willing to suffer loss? Anyways, you talk about the contemporaries. I’m going to start with John Mccarter because someone asks John Mactaggart this direct question about Alistair Begg and hear what he has to say.

[Neil McLeod]

Good evening, Pastor John. This, my name’s Neil McLeod. I’m a Scott.

[John MacArthur]

Yes.

[Neil McLeod]

They’re not going to get rid. Of us. John, I I have a question that’s been heavy on my heart about one of our Scottish brothers. Will you comment and guide us as to why Alistair Beck is mistaken in advising a member of his of his flock to attend and solemnize a marriage of her granddaughter to a transgender partner? Can you guide us as to why we should not bend to do this?

[John MacArthur]

Yeah, that that question. Thank you. Came up and has gotten all over the Internet. Let me say first of all, Alistair and I. Have. Been friends for, well, 45 years when I was in Scotland. 45 years ago I was pushing his 45 year old son in a pram. You know what a pram is, Neil? It’s like a baby buggy. So we’ve had a lot of history. Together. And I have a great affection for him. I also want to say that you shouldn’t judge a man by his weakest moment. All of us will have a a moment of weakness. Having said that. I have to disagree with the answer that he gave to the Question Believers should not go to. A homosexual transgender wedding. For for a lot of reasons. But he was making the argument that you go out of compassion. Rather than condemnation you, you go to show love to them as a means to reach them. My my response to that is the most loving thing you could possibly do would be not to go and to condemn the relationship. That is loving. It’s not loving to help somebody celebrate stepping into the fury of God’s judge.

[John MacArthur]

No, no transgender person. Feminine homosexual will enter the Kingdom of heaven. This is not a time for you to celebrate thinking that. Your affection for somebody is the means of their salvation. They they will come to salvation when the Lord exposes their sin. That’s why the Holy Spirit, John, 16 convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment. And what should be said to somebody is this is wrong. This is against God’s order. This is not marriage. It is not a marriage because you can’t have a marriage between two people of the same sex. It’s not a marriage at all. It is defying God who ordained marriage. Obtained male and female and designed procreation. It is a blasphemy against God, as is transgender life and homosexuality as well. That is the message to give in love. I I I couldn’t, beyond the theological reasons and the biblical reasons. I couldn’t affirm that if if I went, I would affirm that not only could I not affirm it, I I don’t think I could tolerate it. I don’t think I could survive sitting in something like that and feeling like I was. Supportive of it and then to give them a gift. I that that is to aid and abet the celebration of something that is. Defying God’s design and the very, very I would say point of the sphere, currently of the corruption of this entire culture. So you can’t be a part of that.

[Neil McLeod]

Thank you so.

[John MacArthur]

Much. Well, it’s my pleasure. I do say this. I don’t understand why you would answer the question that way. I thought if somebody. Was in that situation and had that view and you’re on the radio and somebody says. And this you’re recording this, right? So you’re whoever you’re. Host is is going to ask you a question and the host says. What would you tell this grandma about going to a transgender wedding? I would immediately say. Ask me another question. Particularly if I. If I was at all prone to suggest that that might be OK, I would never say that because you have to calculate the cost of that and how do you calculate that? I mean the the price for that is is really epic. It’s it’s really epic. And there’s so much more about him. That is wonderful and. And faithful and his ministry just passed 40 years of pastoral ministry in that church, and it was a great celebration. And now he’s going to be defined by that. That that I don’t know how you calculate doing that for that reason. Unless there is some very personal relationship with someone you’re trying to win over or protect. But that’s really speculation in my mind.

[MCG]

And that was Pastor John MacArthur. Here is Pastor Vodi bakom.

[Voddie Baucham]

Neutrality is not an option. And and so many Christians. Are. Under the deluded impression. That if we just keep our head down, if we just go to church, if we just practice our faith in our home, if we, if we, if we just do that, that that they’ll leave us alone. But they won’t. They won’t. I don’t know if you’ve been watching lately. But it’s not enough. For you to just refuse to be hostile. It is now demanded. That you bend the knee and confess Caesar’s Lord. You can’t be neutral. Try to be neutral if you want to. We’re just going to be neutral. We’re just going to go about our lives. Yep. And then your daughter lines up in the track meet and there’s a boy racing her. What do you do? Do you sit there? Take the loss. Clap when the trophy is given to the biological male. What do you do? What do you do when? You go to work. And and then they they they had this new policy at your work where you put your pronouns on everything. And you say no, no, I’m not gonna play the game. I’m just not gonna put the pronouns on there and they said no, no, no. It’s a policy. Put your pronouns on there. Fine. I’ll put my pronouns on there, but my pronouns are the pronouns that God gave me. Good for you, cause that’s just step one. You’ve put your pronouns, everybody else has put their pronouns, and then this is what happens. They come to you and they say. You must bear false witness. Look at that man. And call him a woman. Neutrality. Is not. An option. Go get your pH. D. Go be the best student ever, anywhere. Go try to write a grant proposal. Try to be a scientist, a biologist at chemistry. Anybody try just just, just try today to go and do that and sidestep all the mind. All of them. Let’s say your work must be based on the assumption. That there is no God, that the world was not created and that it’s billions and billions and billions of years old. Neutrality is not an option. Try as you might. And it always boggles my mind, right. You can have one person who says the world is 30 billion years old. Great. You get a prize and another person who comes and says no. Actually the world is more than 60 billion years old. No problem. You get a prize too. I come and I say the world is actually several 1000 years old and they say you’re an idiot. Why? Why the distance between the 60 billion year Guy and the 30 billion year Guy is 30 billion years. The distance between the 30 billion guy and me is less than 30 billion years. How come both of them get to be OK, but I don’t? Neutrality is not an option, folks. On our children and go to schools that pump this stuff into them. Neutrality is not an option in your family. Some of you have experienced this in your own family. Neutrality is not an option. All the recent stir about, you know, do you go to to, to, to the the gay wedding? Do you not go to the gay with all of this recent stuff? Why? Why are Christians wanting their pastors and leaders to help them think through this? I’ll tell you why. Because when the family or the extended family comes to you. And says Johnny’s marrying another man. They know that you’re a Christian. They’re just double dog daring you to say that there’s something wrong with it and you’re not going. Neutrality is not an option. It’s not. By the way, why is neutrality not an option? I’m glad you asked. Because. These worldviews. Are rooted and grounded. And atheism? They’re rooted and grounded in the idea that there is no God, and because there is no God, we are accountable to no one, to nothing except ourselves. That’s why we use phrases like my truth. We’re accountable to no one. If there is a God. All of these worldviews fall. So you cannot go around. Proclaiming your worldview that is rooted and grounded in the existence of the one true and living God, the God who was and who is and who is to come without there being this clash. So neutrality is not an option. I’m sorry. If you thought you could get out of this unscathed, I’m here to tell you tonight. You cannot and you will not.

[MCG]

And I will end with this one. Doctor Steven Lawson. I’m not quite familiar with Doctor Steven Larson, but he had some interesting things to say about this.

[Steven J. Lawson]

There’s been a lot of talk recently. About whether a Christian should attend a homosexual marriage. And there’s been a lot of talk recently about whether a Christian should attend a transgender wedding. And should they bring a gift? To the wedding so that they would appear to be. Compassionate. And loving. And I want you to know that the answer is absolutely no. You have no business. Being there. Because it is a travesty, it is a blasphemy. It is an abomination. It is not to be supported. It is not to be celebrated. It is to be repudiated. And it is to be exposed. And by attending you are celebrating this union. And you cannot celebrate blatant gross sin. Of the highest order. Adrian Rogers said years ago and it needs to be heard again today. He’s with the Lord now. It is better to be divided by truth. Than to be united by error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts. And then heels. Than to speak falsehood. That comforts, but then kills. It is not love and it is not friendship. If we fail to declare the whole Council of God, it is better to be hated for telling the truth. Than to be loved for telling a lie. It is better to stand alone with the truth. Then to be wrong. With the multitude. Let us not forget that marriage is not the product of culture or society. It is not the result of man’s thinking that it is God and God alone. In his infinite wisdom, who has designed marriage. And there is the sanctity of marriage entering into a holy union, and those who are unholy are to be reproved. For entering into that which God has made holy. And so by even attending. Much less even bringing a gift. You are giving your endorsement of approval of what is taking place.

[MCG]

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, if you have made it this far into this episode, thank you for. And then.

[Jay]

This is the removing barriers podcast. If the podcast or the blog were a blessing to you, leave us a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don’t forget to share the podcast with your friends, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to: removingbarriers.net. This has been the removing barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.