Episode 146

We are beginning a new series on the Removing Barriers podcast shining a spotlight on marriage: what makes it work and what should we be aiming for. In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we sit down with recurring guest Pastor Todd and his wife Rebecca, a first time guest on the podcast. They have been married for 31 years and have graciously given of their time and energy to share what God has taught them about marriage. This episode is full of wise counsel for everyone, whether you are considering marriage or already in one.

[Pastor Todd]

It’s about commitment and it’s saying if I need to say please forgive me so that I restore my level of commitment, then I’m not above that because I’m flesh.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay, and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 146 of the Removing Barriers Podcast, and this is the first in the series of lessons in marriage and in this episode, we will be sitting down with Pastor Todd and Rebecca to learn about their 31 years of marriage and the lessons they have learned over the years. Pastor Todd, welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, thank you very much. We’re glad to be here tonight.

[MCG]

And Miss Rebecca a very special welcome to you because this is your first time.

[Rebecca]

Thank you very much.

[MCG]

Thank you both for joining us.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things Removing Barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removingbarriers.net/donate, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Alright, pastor Todd, Rebecca, let’s start at the beginning. Tell us the whole story. How did you guys meet?

[Pastor Todd]

I’ll let Rebecca tell the story.

[Rebecca]

Well, we give them two different versions.

[MCG]

Yeah, that’s the best part.

[Pastor Todd]

It’s ultimately the same version, but I have different take on it. I’ll tell the story.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, because you. Saw me first, so you start.

[Pastor Todd]

So I was in college. And I had. Been praying about the Lord’s will for my direction because I was graduating that year. Sitting in supper one night and I saw her at a distance. In our dining facility and she was with a group of girls, maybe 10 or so girls that were there. And I didn’t know any of them save one. And Rebecca was in the group with one girl that I knew. And so after I saw Rebecca, I went back and. I contacted my friend who was in the group and she said well, I don’t really know that girl. She was there and the group with some other friends that are friends of mine. And she said. But I’ll find out for you. So she found out, and then she ratted me out.

[Rebecca]

And she told me about that.

[Pastor Todd]

And she told Rebecca that I had inquired about her. Well, I didn’t ask Rebecca out for another three weeks. But now I started to see her everywhere. And she knew that I was thinking about asking her out. And so she started seeing me everywhere. And so we debate who was in that spot 1st and who was seeing the other first. I think I was just doing my normal days tasks and she happened to come by me every day.

[MCG]

How does it feel to be? Chosen from a group of 10.

[Rebecca]

Hilarious, but now this was back in the day where we did not have cell phones. We did not have texting, so we had a letter system at our college. So he about three weeks after my friend’s roommate told me, hey, this guy’s going to ask you out. And I looked him up in the yearbook and I was like, OK, he looks OK. I mean, I guess I would go out with him. He didn’t ask for three weeks, so that is absolutely correct. But I did kind. Of spot him here and there. Talking to Chapel or class or something. So he wrote a letter and said would you have dinner with me? And he didn’t like the menu at the dining common that night, so he was going to take me to the snack shop, which is like. Some restaurants on campus, so. I wrote him back and said I will go with. You and rest is history.

[Pastor Todd]

The the interesting thing is the night before I had seen her out with one of the big guys on campus. When I saw her with him. Even though our date was scheduled, I just was like, well, nothing’s gonna come of our date. Because if she’s going out with him, I can’t compete with him as a big man on campus.

[Rebecca]

I only went with the guy because it was Valentine’s Banquet and he asked and I said sure, but there was no interest there. It was one and done.

[Pastor Todd]

But she only want us. She only went out with him one time, so I did have. A chance?

[MCG]

30 years later.

[Jay]

31 years later, right?

[Pastor Todd]

Now she needs to correct something that I’ve said for many years. I’ve said for many years that she didn’t want to marry me because I was in the ministry. Or I was going to go in the ministry, but she corrected me this last time that I said it and she can say what she told her friends after our first date.

[Rebecca]

Well, our first date was sitting through multiple basketball games in the gym, in the college gym, and we just got talking about where did you grow up? Where did you grow up? What did your parents do? What do your parents do? And we had such similar back. Sounds and upbringings that I instantly felt a connection with him, but he was a pastoral studies major and I knew what that meant and I was like in my mind, I was saying I’ve lived the life of being in a pastor’s home all of my childhood, and I just didn’t know that I wanted to go into that. Public work. World, where you’re responsible for people and people are watching your glass house.

[Jay]

Right.

[Rebecca]

And all those I wanted to serve the Lord. And I was willing. To do whatever. But that. That I knew that was going to be a situation. So I went back to my room that night. After we we probably talked solid 3 to 4 hours to talk to talk, to talk. And it was a great night. I went back to my room and my friends were all in there waiting for me to get back and said so. How did it go? What did you think of him? Was he a nice guy? And I said he is a great guy, but I’ll never marry him. He’s just somebody that I could be a good friend with, you know, be friends with or whatever. But then he continued to ask. Me on another day and another day and I. Felt so bad. To say no. Saying yes until one of those questions was will you marry me? And I said yes, but actually seriously. In between we met in February. So that first date was February 21st. I think the week after. Valentine’s Day and we were engaged by June.

[Jay]

Ohh wow.

[Rebecca]

It was very quick, but I knew within a month or so of spending time with him and just doing things with him, writing letters back and forth there. Knowledge the Lord was working on my heart and said, well, you’ve said you’re willing to do whatever I want you to do to serve me. But are you willing to do this? And I thought, well, he is only going to be a youth pastor right now. So maybe I could handle that, you know? But I did have to kind of get my heart right and say, OK. Lord, you’re right. I need to be willing to do whatever, and I’ve never really questioned it. Since then, I’ve never looked back and said, oh, I wish I hadn’t made that decision. I wish he wasn’t doing what he’s doing. So I mean, there are tough days and we can get into ups and downs of marriage and life and career, but I’ve never regretted it so.

[Jay]

Yeah, man. Oh, that’s a wonderful story. Now I realized it happened quickly from February to was it June or July? I I. Forget it’s.

[Rebecca]

June and then we were married in October. So we met and knew each other seven.

[Jay]

Months. Wow. So do you think that there’s a difference between, let’s say, dating and courting? I know that in Christian circles, there seems to be a difference between the two. Would you call what you all were doing, courting or dating? And is there a difference between the two?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, traditionally.

[Rebecca]

I don’t know if we would fall either.

[Pastor Todd]

Traditionally they’ve.

[Rebecca]

We’re not as familiar with.

[Pastor Todd]

Cord, they’ve separated out cording as though you cannot have a relationship with a member of the opposite gender unless it’s for the purpose of finding out that that person’s gonna be my fiance. And I’m going to. Get married, right? So in my experience in the ministry. There seems to be kind of backlash theology with this. Some parents allow their kids to date frivolously. And many times they don’t even know who their kids are going out with. And so it’s not been uncommon for me to say to a mother, hey, who’s your daughter out with tonight, and she doesn’t even know him. Well, as a backlash to that kind of frivolous dating, you come all the way to the other end of the spectrum and you. Say mom and dad are going to be actively involved and you’re not going to have any kind of friendships with a member of the opposite gender until it’s the one, and then you’re going to court them for X amount of time, or they’re going to court you and it’s all leading up to marriage. I think that there’s probably a happy balance in friendships and holding off until you’re ready for a real relationship. So one of the things that Rebecca and I learned through our upbringing. And our past experiences of dating because one caveat that we could also do on another podcast is that both of us were engaged before and we both broke off our engagements before we met. So that’s an interesting dynamic that both of us had experienced. And I don’t feel like we necessarily dated frivolously, but because we dated quite a few people through the process of growing up in our teen years and then into college, we purposely set out a path for our own son. That we wanted them to be friends with girls, but we didn’t let them be real serious at 15 because they get too serious, too quick. And then there’s no way to stop that serious nature of the relationship and you’ve got at least another 5-6, seven years. Before it can go anywhere else, So what? We sought to challenge our own boys with, and they’ll even to this day say that many of our rules were based upon our experiences. And they’re like, ohh dad and mom. Because you all went through this. We had to do this.

[MCG]

All right.

[Rebecca]

But it was for a good reason too. I mean, cause we had restrictions as far as we couldn’t be alone with somebody, but I don’t remember my parents ever saying don’t have an interest in a boy more than just a friend. Like I don’t know that we really discussed that. So there was always growing up in Christian schools, both of us. There was always somebody that. You know, had our eye or that we had an interest in or what? So we were engaged young, but it was very obvious and made very clear to each of us in our own situations, those were not. Who the Lord wanted us. To marry, but that was part of that first date. Three hour story was wait that happened to you? Oh, that happened to me. Oh, we’ve been there. So I think I went into my relationship with him. OK. He was engaged before. He understands where I’m coming from versus it just being me or just being him. I think that.

[Pastor Todd]

Made it well what we sought to do with our own boys is we wanted them to wait until they were. Later into their college type years. Not necessarily. They had to be in college, but we wanted them to wait a little bit longer before it was the serious boyfriend girlfriend and it really was trying to also protect their heart because we realized too, having been engaged, the breaking of an engagement is very hard.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

All right.

[Pastor Todd]

On both parties, it’s very hard on the parents of both parties. And so we didn’t want our boys to give their heart to another and then go through that struggle of. The breakup and the hard nature of, you know, having that first love. So hope that all makes sense.

[Jay]

Right.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely. So how did you know this was the person you want to marry?

[Pastor Todd]

I’ll answer first. I think for me, it wasn’t just Rebecca, and it wasn’t just her sisters. And it wasn’t just her parents. But I could see myself being 100% with her. So from my own heart, as we communicated and we found things in common. And even found things that we didn’t have in common but that were unique to both of our lives. I believe that this is someone that I’d want to spend the rest of my life with and immediately upon marriage and her mom and dad have been like my parents and I kid her parents all the time about being their oldest son. Because we are just so united as a family. That I’ve never. I mean, I love her folks like I love my own parents and her grandparents, and we just have had that kind of a bond, I think. And I could see myself in it. One of the things as well, if I could throw this in that I do counsel with people is you don’t just marry the person, you marry the family. And if you’re at odds right away. With the parents of the girl or you’re thinking all I have to do is get the girl away from her parents and then our marriage will be good. You’re setting yourself up for very difficult times and I’ve actually pastored and counseled through that kind of wrestling match where a couple was engaged. And both sets of parents had the philosophy because I could tell this as I was counseling them all together. That both sets of parents thought as long as we can get the boy away from his parents or the girl away from her parents, this marriage will be really good. And thankfully the Lord worked it out where those two did not wind up getting married. Because I think it would have been a disaster.

[MCG]

Yep. Wow.

[Rebecca]

For me personally, it was once I had gotten my heart rate and settled things with OK fulfilling the Lord’s calling, whatever he wanted me to do because I didn’t have it. A dream. Career or this? Is what I want to do with my life and my future. I really didn’t know where the Lord was directing me. So of course when Todd came into my life and I started letting my head and my heart talk to each other, I was like, I think I know where this is going and I had peace about it. So if somebody asked me, how did you know? And I’ve been asked many times how did you know that Todd was the person for you to marry or that you were going to marry him? And I said I had complete peace and there never seemed to be a. Closed door walking. To our dating and then into our engagement period. I couldn’t find a reason not to marry him, so I just had to trust the Lord, especially after what I had just been through few years prior with the broken engagement I just had to say, Lord, I begged him. When I got engaged that time. If this is not your will, please let. Something intervene and something did definitely intervene. So I knew that. Was the Lord convicting me and looking out for me, so I had to kind of treat this situation the same way with I just have to put this in your hands, Lord, and trust you. I mean, how? Do you know if you’re making the right decision? You’re picking one person out of billions of people on. This planet, you know, I just had to look at it as the Lord directed our.

[Jay]

On this planet, yeah.

[Rebecca]

Paths to each other. And had that peace.

[Jay]

Trusting in the Lord is really important, I would imagine, simply because it’s a huge decision as well. This is the person you’re probably gonna spend the rest of your life with, so huge decision there.

[Pastor Todd]

One thing that’s interesting is I don’t believe that I ever dated someone that my parents were a G. Pence or my family was against they all were. OK, that’s a nice girl. That’s a nice girl. That’s a nice girl. But at the same time where I didn’t date someone that they were against, they weren’t totally always 4. So. When I found Rebecca, you could see this wave of contentment over my family. Now we like her. And I was always saying, well, what about the other one? And they’re like, well. That was OK, but we like her.

[Rebecca]

I’ve literally heard that from his aunt and his cousin is the same age as him and they have told me that for years. We’re so thankful that he picked you. We’re so thankful, he. Found you. I don’t know if you still feel that way, but.

[Jay]

So how did he end up proposing? Or did you propose, or how did the whole proposal engagement thing go down?

[Pastor Todd]

So that’s a great story too.

[Rebecca]

I’ll give it in a nutshell.

[Pastor Todd]

We both have tremendous first time engagement stories. The grand engagement, the the unbelievable location. And for me, I went to the very location that my dad got engaged at. And so it was all unbelievable. In the first engagement, she had an unbelievable location for her engagement. It was just unbelievable our engagement. I flew in from Florida to my friend’s web. Thing and I had the ring with me, but I didn’t know she was going to pick me up. At the airport.

[Rebecca]

And he was already saying to me, I can’t do this without you. It would be so great to have you here. We talked about getting. Buried the following spring, but nothing official or whatever, so I wanted to kind of I didn’t play a trick on him, but I just had told him I had a really busy schedule that weekend and I did not think that I was going to be able to see him. While he was in town that I would try to see him Sunday before he left, so I wanted to surprise him, so I surprised him. I showed to the airport so when he got in the car with me, he immediately opened his bag, took out the ring and. Said Will you marry me? The steering wheel have a great photo of my hand up. On the steering. Wheel showing off hearing at the airport in the.

[Pastor Todd]

At the airport.

[Rebecca]

Parking lot. So we say we were engaged in the parking lot.

[MCG]

Now I have a question that I think is a burning question for a lot of folks. Now I can see why Pastor Todd would ask you, Rebecca, but for the life of me I can’t figure why you would say yes.

[Pastor Todd]

She wanted a life of travel.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, I was going to travel and I had just been dating. Not real seriously, but somewhat seriously a pilot. He was training to be a. That getting his license and everything and I just thought that is so cool. I’ll fly everywhere. And I mean, it was not that big a deal to me, but now we joke that I married a preacher and we’ve been in about 25 countries together.

[Pastor Todd]

So you’re out of the country four months after we got married.

[Jay]

Wow, that’s encouraging.

[Pastor Todd]

No. So I don’t know that she really can answer that question because there’s really no good answer.

[Rebecca]

Why did I choose him? Like I said, I just had complete peace that I felt. Like I don’t know. I just never had any doubts that this was the right person for me, so I appreciated his kindness and his patience and his character and his thoughtful ways. And he was romancing me.

[MCG]

Alright, I didn’t know you have it in your pasta, Todd.

[Rebecca]

Romancing. Yes. Then at one point, old and tired together, so it gets.

[Pastor Todd]

Like I try to tell her I can pay for the flowers and the cards, or I can pay the electric bill.

[Rebecca]

No, I love. You right.

[MCG]

I like that I’m gonna steal that.

[Jay]

Pastor no you.

[Pastor Todd]

Don’t. It’s not a good statement.

[Jay]

Pastor, you don’t gave him ideas now. Ohh brother here we.

[Rebecca]

Go OK with me. I get it.

[Pastor Todd]

More cards and flowers, though to be honest, that’s the truth.

[MCG]

Let’s transition into the Marie. So the honeymoon is over. Your purpose? The honeymoon is over. Tell us about the early years of marriage. What was those like for you guys? The first, you know, 5-10 years.

[Rebecca]

A lot of. Change quickly, which we weren’t planning for because he was.

[Jay]

Yeah, cause you mentioned that he took you out of the country in. The first four months. What was that like? What were your first few years like?

[Pastor Todd]

We went through those early stages because we thought we had a plan and so we could either rent or buy. I had saved enough money for a down payment on a house and the church that we were in was running about 800. And we had about a hundred teenagers in the teen department, about 75 to 100 teenagers. And so when we got married, I’m sorry. In September of 92, we purchased a house instead of renting.

[Rebecca]

And it was being built like we were selecting the carpet and we were making all those choices.

[Pastor Todd]

It was. Yep. And I thought, hey, we’re gonna be here a long time. Well, we went through some bumps in the road and. I wound up resigning, so we bought a house in September. We got married in October and I resigned in January.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, we moved our wedding up from April since he was already serving as a youth pastor and single. He just felt like it would be better for him easier if there was a a wife, a female there for the girls. So we said, well, why not? So we moved it up to October. So he had only been there since May, but it quickly became evident that it was not the place for us. I think we we agreed on that. This is not the place, but we didn’t know what we were going to do. We only saw this place as part of our plan. We never thought of any other.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I was.

[Rebecca]

Plan B or plan.

[Pastor Todd]

BI was 21 years old and I was young, so I was still learning the ropes of being a youth pastor and the pastor that I was serving under at the time was.

[Rebecca]

They were young.

[Pastor Todd]

Was on in years and I had. I had a few bumps in the road and some of my decisions. I don’t think any of them were, you know, like life threatening or any danger to the teenagers or anything like that. But he was not real patient with me learning the lessons. And then continuing on in the ministry. And so we had a generational different understanding and it was just best for me to step aside. But even in learning that there are lessons that we learned from that pastor that we still carry on today and we look back now and God gave us a miraculous opportunity.

[Rebecca]

It was a generation old.

[Pastor Todd]

To go and be outside of the country on our own, in a very wonderful place. And he taught us lessons in the next three or four months that we just both needed to. Learned. And I don’t know that we would have learned them if we had stayed in that environment, but we were taught lessons, we came back to the United States and we did not know exactly where we were going to go. My dad had said don’t go into another ministry necessarily immediately because if you go into a second ministry and it’s a bad. Experience you may be out of the ministry altogether. So we found a solid local church that we knew and that we were friends with the pastor and we had a condominium that was available to rent. So we just both took secular jobs for our second year of marriage. So almost literally, everything in our lives has happened in May. I don’t know how. To explain that. But we graduated from College in May. We started our new life in Pennsylvania in May for one year, we worked secular jobs and we actually made more money. By actual amounts than we’ve probably ever made in our married life together, and we both looked at each other one day and we said, you know, God really wants us in the ministry. So one year later in May, we moved to Tennessee, and I went back into the ministry. And so we were there in that church. For 22 1/2 years, then in May of 2016. My current church voted on me as pastor, and so that May changed our lives. So literally we look back and we say May has been the month. So we may with not too much upheaval, we’re in good shape so.

[Rebecca]

I think it’s. But it was interesting that we were out of full time ministry. For that short time, a year and a half or so, and we both not just him now, but we both had that pool and that draw and that desire that we’re going and working jobs every day, we’re making great money for our ages to just start out in jobs. We are outside Philadelphia. So the cost of living was. Higher there or whatever. So we were making a good income, but at the end of the day there was an empty feeling of, well, what are we actually doing to accomplish something for? Eternity. And so we were having these conversations, and I know the Lord took us outside the country for those several months because we didn’t have a lot of time to get to know each other before we got married. So now we were on an island, literally knew no one else but the people that were in the church, that we were ministering in church there. Kind of as a substitute. Missionary. Or I guess that’s what. They call and that gave us. A lot of time. To get to know each other and spend time together to kind of make up for that. But then just saying to each other, we’re helping out in our children’s church at our church. But is what we’re doing every day really accomplishing anything for eternity? And we’re just talking about that with each other. And then his friend happened to call him and say, or maybe he contacted the friend and said if you ever hear of something just. Let me know and quickly. He got a response back. Hey, there’s a church in Tennessee that needs a youth. Faster. And again I said. OK. It’s just a youth. Pastor, I can do this.

[Pastor Todd]

Yeah, but I’ll tell you the funny. Part when we went to the mission field and filled in for a missionary. We did everything, so I did the music leading and she did all the piano playing and we lived in a very simple apartment that the church had rented for us. And you know, I mean, it was really good for us. But I’ll tell you one funny story. We had been married from October to about.

[Rebecca]

A little.

[Pastor Todd]

January, February. And this couple says to us at church one day on the mission field. Hey, we need to talk to you all. So we’ve been married for October, November, December, January, February 5 months or so. And they said, OK, can we get together on Thursday night? We said sure. They’ve been married for 25 years. And they looked at me and said.

[Rebecca]

About four months.

[Pastor Todd]

We need help in our marriage. Wow, I said. Well, let me go to the vast resources of my knowledge five months. And we still remember them very well and thankfully they’re still in the church now all these years later. And so I try to ask people that know of that mission work. Ohh. Hey, are these people still there? You need it mess them up. Too bad. But you know, it was amazing and how God used. We learned many lessons through difficulties in the nine months I was there in the church in Florida. But then God gave us the next 3 1/2 months. And he taught us different lessons, and we needed both of those for what now would be our future ministry.

[Jay]

So share as much or as little as you would like, but could you share with our audience and with us that are still this thing called marriage, this wonderful thing called marriage. What were some of the problems that you had to experience and iron out and learn from you talk about the Lord teaching you so many things in the time, not just in Florida. But also out of the country sharing as much or as little as you like. What are some of the problems that the Lord brought you through some of the lessons that you? Learned, and what advice would you give to couples that are still in that first five or seven years of marriage?

[Pastor Todd]

Well, you always have different viewpoints when you come into marriage, so.

[Rebecca]

Two different people.

[Pastor Todd]

Two different people, two different viewpoints. I’ll use this as an example. I pull into the parking lot and I think to myself, park away from the grocery store. So that nobody Dings my car, she thinks open spot right next to the door. Pull in there. And so when I passed that open spot, she’s thinking to herself. Don’t you care about me having to walk this far into the into the restaurant or into the grocery store? And I think if we park out this far, no one’s gonna Ding the car and no one’s gonna hit the car. You know, everything like that. So in marriage you come into it and you say I do, based upon the things that. You have in common. But as soon as you say I do, then you find out all the things that you don’t. Have in common. She’s chocolate. I’m the nilla. She’s sold on Pepper. I mean, there’s so many different things that we look at now. And we say, oh, my goodness, we’re complete opposite. I spend money. She saves money. So.

[Rebecca]

We are complete all this.

[Pastor Todd]

And that’s opposite as far as what people traditionally think. But my hobbies are way more expensive than her hobbies. And when we were dating. He said that it was golf and purses, and so I said every time I golf we’ll find you a purse or something like that. When we are dating, it is so much past that it’s not even funny. And so I wish it was just a round of golf that I spent money on. So I think the challenge is just that you recognize that you’re going to have things that are different. And you don’t have to be in lockstep on everything, but you have to have a similar ultimate goal. And so even when we’ve been through very hard things and we’ve had to bear some very. Hard issues in the ministry and stuff we may not have seen the circumstances the same, but we had the same desire for the outcome. And so we’ve moved together. We’ve decided together, we raised our kids with the same philosophy of how we were going. To train them. Up and, you know, and all these things you just have to have the same ultimate. Goal now, she might think that we should take I-10 and I think we should take I-95 and she gives me all the reasons we shouldn’t do 95. And I say these are all the reasons we shouldn’t do your Rd. but we ultimately want to arrive at the same location. And so they’re challenges. You can’t go into marriage and think that it’s all about you. And it’s all about yourself. There are things that you have to deny yourself of. For the good of the other.

[Rebecca]

I think the longer you’re married and for us, 31 years sounds like, I mean, it’s a lifetime. It’s an entire life. And I still say I’m not old enough to be married 31. Years I feel like 31 years.

[MCG]

You are not, but Pastor TARDIS.

[Rebecca]

This isn’t a video, so that’s a good thing. But I mean, obviously you’re two different people and I think knowing that going into marriage and not expecting anything different. Are there times I get frustrated with him because he doesn’t view things or see things the way I do? Of course that’s natural, but we’re not the same person, so it would almost be weird if he did see and think. And there are benefits to different perspectives, and there are times where we’ve talked things out. We’re going to make a financial decision. Or maybe not a financial decision, but a decision that is going to affect our home life or we’re making it within our marriage. We talk it out. He gives his perspective and I give mine. I think we’re pretty good at voicing it and having that conversation, but then ultimately. The decision has to be made and he should be responsible for the decision. Most of the time, and if it’s a decision I don’t quite agree with, that’s where the wives submit yourselves to your husbands comes in and it’s not that, he says. I don’t care about your feelings and your perspective. I’m going to do what I want. We’ve had that, that mutual. Conversation. But at the end of the day, the decision has to be made and I need to be mature enough to handle well. It might not have been the way I see it. This is the way it’s going to. Go and we’re going to. Move forward. I don’t know that we’ve had a lot of things to work through personally with each other, but I think that could be the beauty of the blessing or the curse of dealing with so many other people in a church setting and congregation and ministry. A church congregation is full of people, and so while we’re focusing and taking care of those people and their issues or problems, they may be having, I think it makes us step back and say. OK, we’re doing OK. I mean, we might have our little issues that will arise here and there, but ultimately watching what some couples have dealt with or are dealing with or going through, I think that makes our marriage stronger because we realize we need to work at it and not allow it to get to that point. War and we are blessed that we’ve not experienced that in our. Marriage or we haven’t had to deal with that. So I think just we take an issue as it.

[Jay]

Right.

[Rebecca]

Comes and work through it. I mean, we never look at it. Well, if this doesn’t. Go the way I want. We’re going to get divorced. That’s just not in our. Our realm of thinking, and we’re very blessed to have parents that were not divorced and they’re still married for over 50 some years to this day, so we. Had good examples. Of sticking together through the thick and the thin, so that’s not even on the agenda for us, but we still want to be happy in that marriage, whether you’re in it for. Life or not? You know, so you want to learn to work together.

[Pastor Todd]

I think those are two big things to really have conversations about and that’s what I try to do in marital counseling when they’re getting ready to get married is I’m not trying to talk them out of getting married, but I try to create a lot of conversations between the two of them. You need to be on the same page with being in the career that you’re choosing or directed towards. Are you both on the same page for whatever his career is going to be for whatever her career is going to be, and for how those two careers are going to blend?

[Rebecca]

And those careers can change, because when he was in between ministries, he was security for a shopping mall. He was.

[Pastor Todd]

Right, right. I was a mall cop.

[Rebecca]

He actually be a car salesman and they didn’t hire him because he was too honest.

[Pastor Todd]

I had a Bible degree and. They didn’t want me.

[Rebecca]

No offense to the car salesman out there, but it was. I never would have. I mean, we had the plan. Of what? He was going to. Do so just know going into marriage for any of the younger audience or listeners that are not yet married or have not made that decision on that major life mate. There’s no guarantee. So you may think this is what you’re going to do for the rest of your life, but things.

[Pastor Todd]

The other.

[Jay]

Right, right.

[Rebecca]

Come up and things happen and you just have to be committed to each other regardless.

[Pastor Todd]

Of you have to put food on the table and so I’ve delivered flowers. I’ve, you know, between jobs and when we moved to Pennsylvania, she got a job before. I did and it was really because of her job that I got the job that I had. And you know, I worked for a delivery service. I did a mall cop type setting. You know, whatever we had to do to meet the needs and pave the way. But those are two big things. Here’s the second one. The. The first one is the career.

[Rebecca]

That’s not where we ever saw them.

[Pastor Todd]

Being on the same page with what your career looks like, and of course I would say from a Christian perspective. That that career is directed by Almighty God for both of you. But the second one is being on the same page in child training because so often they think, well, our marriage is in duress. So we’ll have a child and that will solve all of our problems. But if there are issues when there’s two of you, there’s going to be issues when there’s three of you. If you’re not on the same page. Or how you’re going to bring. Up and so often, we’ve watched couples that kind of wrestle over the direction of their kids and training them either according to the Bible or training them according to secular philosophies. And so those are two big areas that if you kind of broke down marriage and you said, where were the stresses and strains? Careers and child training or child anything having to do with children. When are we going to have them? Why can’t we have them now? We have them. What are we going to do with them? How are we going to pay for them? I would always recommend totally boys because then you don’t have to fret over the finances for their wedding.

[MCG]

Alright, let’s go into a break and then we’ll pick up from there. Pastor and Rebecca, you’re listening to the Remove embarrassed podcast. We sit down with Pastor Todd and Miss Rebecca, and we’re finding out the lessons they have learned in the 31 years of marriage. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

Do you have the desire to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints? Answers and Genesis can help. They provide biblically sound books, CD’s, DVD’s, homeschooling materials, VBS materials, online courses, digital downloads, and the Answers magazine. More plus tickets to the Creation Museum and Ark encounter go to the answers bookstore by clicking the link in the description section below so you too can be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks the reason of the hope that is in you.

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[MCG]

Alright, children, raising children.

[Jay]

Yeah, Pastor mentioned how these things are important, particularly when you’re getting married, figuring out the question of children. How are you going to go through your marriage, whether you have them or whether you can’t have them or whatever the situation is. So how did that play out in your marriage? Pastor Todd and Rebecca, when you began having your children raising your children, did your marriage? Change and if so, how did it change?

[Rebecca]

We were told that it was going to change. By many people, we had been married for eight years, so we were pretty removed from our wedding day and getting the question, are you ever going to have children? Because we worked with teenagers and children all those years of marriage, there wasn’t a void of kids in our life. We had kids to our house all the time. We were out with kids all the time. That activities or just hey, we’re going to a restaurant after church. Do you want to go with? But we did get to the point where Todd said, well, I don’t want to be an old man when my kids graduate from college, so maybe we should get started on it. And then his hair turned white. No, we just said Ohh. OK, so and the Lord blessed us with two boys within 3 1/2 years. But because we were so. Used to spending time with other people. And busy in that world of full time Ministry, I think having our kids, it did adjust a bit of our life, but I would not say that it totally changed it because we just adapted them into our lifestyle and they went with us. So I hear people say they put their kids to bed by 7:00 or 8:00 and we’re like. They went to bed. When we did it maybe 10 or 11 or midnight. I mean, if we were out after church and it was late, they were up with us. They just kind of went along with our lifestyle and it’s evident in our boys today. They’re 20 and 23.

[MCG]

Oh wow.

[Rebecca]

Now, but they’re night. They’re night out. They’re night.

[Pastor Todd]

They stay up too late and they get up too late.

[MCG]

I don’t know.

[Rebecca]

I don’t recall a major, and of course we’re removed from it, but any major, I’m sure there were adjustments as far as just daily life or now sharing my husband with. 2 little boys in our house who wanted Daddy when he came home, but it was. I mean, I wasn’t jealous of that time with him. I was grateful. For our children. So I know some people may experience that, but for me personally. I never did so.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, a couple things. We were young when we got married. And because we’ve only known each other for like 7 or 8 months, we felt like we needed a time where we were going to spend some time together and just create a tighter bond between the two of. Us but then. You also add to that my first job with her being married was nine months. My second job was out of the country for 3 1/2 months. My next job was only one year. We didn’t really have confirmed stability until we’d been in our marriage for about six or seven years, and I don’t want to sound like we weren’t trusting the Lord. But we were just in such a state of flux that we didn’t know. OK. Are we gonna be here for a time? Are we gonna have a baby out of the country? Are we gonna have a baby in this location? Are we gonna, you know, so kind of the timing of our, you know, praying to have kids. And just trusting the Lord, you know, he knew what was best for us so.

[Rebecca]

And there’s probably pros and cons to being established in your marriage. You could be so set in your ways eight years into marriage that bringing a child just totally disrupts your whole world. I could see that. Buddy, we did have to take turns. Who’s gonna get up? You know, with the 2 year old that wakes up during the night or, you know, we deal with those things. But then there’s on the flip side of it because we were established in our marriage. I think we had become more comfortable with each other over those eight years. So when there was an issue that arose with making a decision for our child, are we going to let them do this or how are we going to handle? Them getting up from their naps instead of being. I don’t remember being really stressed out about it because we were acting as a team and we had each others backs and I guess felt comfortable with each other saying can you take care of this? And I can’t imagine being newlyweds and new parents but that it’s very possible to. Have success there as well.

[MCG]

What are some things you? You put in place to keep Christ. You know the center of your marriage.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, first of all, we were always committed to church. And that was true whether or not we were in the ministry at the church or not. We’ve always been there when the doors are open with the boys, you know, and just having a family devotional time. We had specific times where right after supper, we’d spend 15 minutes or 20 minutes and we read a Bible story. And then we had a time of prayer. And that was true for our boys, whether they were at our house or if they went to their grandparents house. My parents had the same story book that we had. And so the boys would always be excited to be in Granddad’s lap and to be able to read the Bible stories and both sets of parents have reinforced what we’ve desired to do at home. So we never had the worries of or the challenges that some other homes face. Where of necessity you have to have your kids cared for by grandparents. But then when you get the kids back, you’ve got to do 3 weeks of retraining as grandparents. Let them do this thus and so. And for us we have freely allowed our parents to oversee the boys because we knew that they would reinforce structure. They would have them obey. They would have them in church, they were teaching and training them the same way we would.

[Rebecca]

I think God just being in our life, I mean, it’s the center of our life. So when we’re dealing with our boys, when they’re young, you know you’re asking them. Is Jesus happy with the way you’re acting right now or you know, something like that? But then as they get older and they’re trying to make decisions, you’re encouraging them. Pray about it, ask the Lord to give you direction. I mean, our oldest son has had many situations now in his college and out of college days where he totally had to rely on the Lord. At his direction and him opening doors and different things like that for his career path that he’s on right now. So we see. Them fulfilling what we taught them at a younger age where God is not the figment of their imagination, but he is a part of their everyday life. And we talked about it probably on the.

[Pastor Todd]

Daily I think another key point to add to what Rebecca’s saying is whether you have one child or ten children allowing them to be exactly what God wants them to be and not saying to them, why can’t you be more like your brother or sister or. Why can’t you follow the path of your brother or sister? Giving them the opportunity to be unique but always challenging them to be what Christ wants them to be and to be like Christ? Our boys are very different in many ways and they’re very much the same in many ways, but by God’s grace, we never said to the younger one. We want you to be what your brother is and we never said to the older one. We want you to be what your brother is, we.

[Rebecca]

Or your death.

[Pastor Todd]

Challenge them both. To to just follow God each of their own. Paths and you know one path is got a little bit more completed because college is done. The choice of marriage is done and now he’s in a. Career the other one is still kind of going through some of those things, but never wanting him to think Mom and Dad will only love me if I’m as good as or the same as or better than a sibling and just saying every sibling’s going to be different and God’s going to use them in different ways. Look at it. Much like my parents did with. My brother and I. I my brother is not in the ministry, but he’s one of the most godly individuals that I know and I’ve never one time heard my parents say, well, he’s not doing as much for the Lord as you are because you’re in the ministry and he’s not because he has served in so many capacities as a layman. And been so mightily used and walked so close to the law. For that, he’s a challenge to me because of his testimony and walk with the Lord through his years of marriage.

[Rebecca]

I think one more caveat for the kid to add for raising children is just constantly directing them to God and making their decisions or I think that was key in implementing and keeping Christ first in not only our marriage, but in our home. And our family.

[Jay]

You talked about how God has taught you so many things, and there are so many lessons that you had to learn when you were living outside of the country. Coming up from the ministry that you were involved with in. Florida raising your sons and how you kept God in the center and you’re always pointing them to Christ as you just mentioned, Rebecca. But unfortunately that’s not. The story that we see in many marriages in our country today, in fact, the divorce rate is what is it like 5050? Two, 55% or something like that in the country right now? What would you say has kept you in your marriage with the divorce rate being what it is and what do you think is the motivating factor that keeps you going on in your marriage despite the ups despite the downs? Children’s looking at perhaps becoming empty nesters here soon, perhaps one of those things that has kept you in your marriage despite the divorce rate. And what was that motivating factor that keeps you going on in your marriage?

[Rebecca]

Realizing the grass is not always greener on the other. Side of the. I’ve thought that to myself over the years, you know, you hear people think or say I’m divorcing my husband because he’s not. This, this and this. And then find themselves later in situations where they’re like, OK, well, now my husband’s not this, this or this. And I don’t know what Todd will say. But for me, divorce is not even a part of my. Vocabulary it’s not a part of my thinking. I’m a human, so if a situation arose.

[Jay]

Right.

[Rebecca]

And it. Drove me to divorce. I can’t sit here and say I would never divorce my husband or people say I don’t believe in divorce, so I’m going to live in this marriage and just be miserable. I don’t look at it that way. It’s not an option for me, but being married to Todd was an option for me. So I want to make it the best and I’m not. Always the most cheerful, joyful. Loving wife on every given day, but I don’t have any other. What the word is thoughts of.

[Pastor Todd]

She stopped.

[Rebecca]

Being outside the marriage.

[Jay]

She’s stuck and her parents won’t take her. Back. Is that what?

[MCG]

We’re talking about.

[Rebecca]

Off the recording.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I’ll tell you. This if either of us.

[Jay]

Delete them.

[Rebecca]

It’s just not a.

[Pastor Todd]

Went to find solace with our parents because they would send us back to each other and say you go and fix.

[Rebecca]

They would send us back to each other.

[Pastor Todd]

This, and you’re not coming back here until it’s taken care of.

[Rebecca]

They would encourage them, they said to me. Rebecca, if you divorce me, can. I go with you. OK, sure. I don’t know, it’s just.

[Pastor Todd]

There’s just a it’s.

[Rebecca]

Not a part of our.

[Pastor Todd]

It’s a wrestling match between the flesh. And the spirit. And on any given day, if you said to me, Pastor, would you like to move to Idaho and live by yourself in an 8 by 10 cabin and work at IGA bagging groceries? There are probably days that I would take you up on that and think I just want no responsibilities. I’m going to move away from everything. And anything that I know, but all that is is a fleshly desire and it’s not about pleasing the Lord because I committed to my wife when I said I do. I committed to our boys when God gifted them into our home. I committed to now honoring my parents and her parents. I committed to now, seeking to be a help to my son and his bride. It’s about commitment, and it’s saying if I need to say please. Forgive me so that I restore my level of commitment. Then I’m not above that because I’m flesh. And my flesh does not want to do right. I don’t want to sacrifice myself like Ephesians 5 says. I want to please myself, love myself, provide for myself and do everything like that. And the Bible says that comes naturally to the husband. It comes naturally. No man has troubles loving himself, but loving my wife. As Christ loved the church. Is the commitment that I made on the day that I said I do so we don’t always see eye to eye, there’s different challenges that have taken place in our marriage. And so praise the Lord. We’re on the same page religiously. We’re on the same page politically, and we’re on the same page.

[MCG]

So I guess President Biden getting both of your votes.

[Pastor Todd]

We’ll allow that to remain nameless. I mean, I’m just saying that you have challenges and you’re striving, but you pray that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the work through you so that she knows when I respond in the flesh, I’m going to need to apologize to her or to the boys and tell them please forgive me. I did not respond to you correctly and that is a common theme for every husband and wife where you just need to keep short account. Once and humble yourself and apologize, you say, well, I wasn’t wrong. Well, you know what your spouse thinks, that you erred in some way. And if that’s true, then I want to apologize to try to make it correct and. Make it right.

[Rebecca]

So I also think that it helps to guard. Your heart and your mind. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the term by a well known evangelist. He would call it stinking. Thinking you can allow yourself. A wife can allow herself or a husband can allow himself to start thinking negatively about their spouse and. They don’t do this and they don’t do this and I don’t like the way they do this and I wish they would do more of this. If you dwell on that, I can see how you could easily get so disenchanted with your marriage and your relationship that you think, why are we even existing here together, you know, versus OK, I might get frustrated. About something that’s happened that day or the way one of us handled the situation. And we’re still going. To be friends at the end of the day, we know that. But I mean at the time you don’t think you are, but I would encourage a spouse who might be struggling or having some negative thoughts and stinking thinking. You don’t have to make a handwritten list, but just a mental list of OK, let me focus on all the positives. Of my spouse and thank the Lord for the blessing of this, this and this. I think that changing our mindset from dwelling on a negative situation. Makes a big. Difference in not allowing it to go any further.

[Pastor Todd]

I had a wise aunt that said to me. And I don’t know if this quote is original with her, but she said you can change the skirt in the marriage, but it is the same old pants. You’re not going to improve anything. And that’s what is so important is they just think if I was married to this one, everything would be heaven well.

[Rebecca]

People think if change their spouse. It’s going to get.

[Pastor Todd]

It’s not.

[Rebecca]

And after, what, 31 years now? I have him trained. I’m not about to start over.

[Pastor Todd]

The key in a good marriage is that the husband gets just the right amount of life insurance. Too much life insurance where she says, OK, I’m done with you. It’s not too little life insurance that she says. Have you work a little bit longer?

[MCG]

Alright, Miss Rebecca, it features 5 verse 2224 says wives submit yourself unto your own husband as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he’s the savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wise be subject to their own. Husband in everything. Practically. How does that look in your life in your marriage?

[Rebecca]

After talking with you all earlier about how we met in our early days, I guess my first thought would be submitting to 1st the Lord’s will. And then to Todd, well, because he was determining what our path was going to be by following the Lord’s will and his calling into the ministry. And I was going to follow him. So I would call that submission, you know, submitting to the plan that God had for his life, but realizing that was also the plan for my life. I don’t know. I don’t know. If it was just being raised and. Being taught biblically. So that a wife does submit ultimately like he said at the end of the day, somebody has to make that decision. So I don’t want to be the one bucking it and saying I refuse, I am not going to submit. I’m just as much of a human being too. And I have a right and I have to say, but I think that takes both the husband and the wife to have the type of relationship. But he’s willing to hear me out if we are trying to make a decision and I. Have to voice an opinion or I have thoughts or feelings about it and it’s not him with the iron fist. So to say where this is, what our family is doing and you have no say. I mean, that’s not how he’s. Been so it. Has come somewhat easy to me to submit to his leadership. I mean, I am a strong personality and I’m a. Detail person and a logistics person and I like structure and organization and so there might be times where I feel like I’m the cart that’s trying to pull the horse, but. I also realized too I have to step back and allow him to lead, and then he’s the one responsible for the decision before the Lord. Now, on a more personal note, we recently had a discussion among our family with him wanting to get a puppy. Turn into a very large. Dog with a very strong personality that came with. The breed and I was adamantly opposed to it. I did not want to alter my lifestyle to bring this furry friend into our house and all that was going to entail the responsibility, the material, you know, our pillows getting chewed up by a puppy, whatever. But we sat and had a family chat. And we even allowed. Our son was involved. That, and it’s another situation that my mind goes back to where you just do your best to communicate to each other. I can’t imagine being in a marriage where I couldn’t communicate and Todd might tell you I over communicate because if I’m thinking it, I’m usually saying it a lot better than I do at keeping his thoughts to himself. But. Anyway, we had a family chat and we talked it out and I sat there thinking I’m not going to tell my husband that he cannot have a dog and if he gets a dog, I’m not going to make his life so miserable because he didn’t go along with my wishes and my plans of I don’t want. To get a dog or get. A pet so. It’s a simple silly example, but it sticks out in my mind where in my mind I was adamant that I didn’t want to do this. I would have made the decision. No, let’s not, of course I love, even though he’s a. Handful right now. It’s keeping us on our toes, but. I can’t imagine now our life not having him. But at the end of the day, I. Allowed Todd to make that decision and. He did and.

[Pastor Todd]

Well, I’ll chime in, I’ll chime in and say, you know the other side of it is I love motorcycles and I would love to have a motorcycle. She knows that the only time that I really ride motorcycles is if I’m 8000 miles away on a foreign mission field. She knows I love motorcycles. I do love. I’d love to have one if you told me today I could go out and get one, I would. But I don’t get one because I know how. I would affect her and so I have made many poor choices. Obviously, since we’ve been married, most of them are involved with animals. But you know I do want to be sympathetic as a leader and take into account how she feels about something and I especially do not want my Greystone. To say I told him not to buy.

[Jay]

It I told.

[Pastor Todd]

So if I got a motorcycle and I had an accident on it, I know what she put on my gravestone. So I’m just. Not going. So there is a fair amount of give and take in that and just yes, I’m lead. Thing but I want to be sympathetic to you know, what are her thoughts and and what are her? You know, opinions on this? I’d be a fool to reject all that. And by the way, I think she’s the one who came up with the. Name for our. Dog so she takes credit for at least giving us the great name that we all agreed upon. If we got one.

[Rebecca]

I decide if I’m going to go. Along with this, then we’re going to make it fun.

[Jay]

And so anyway, did it have anything? To do with Murphy’s law, I’m just wondering.

[Pastor Todd]

Now that’s interesting.

[Rebecca]

Never thought of that actually, but that’s a good.

[Jay]

All right. Continuing on the vein that you are talking about, Pastor. So ephesians. Continues and it says to the husbands in that same passage husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. That he might present it to himself. A glorious church. Not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies, he that loveth his wife Loveth himself, for no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourished and cherished it, even as the Lord, the church. So Pastor, can you share with our audience? What are some of the practical things that you’re doing to love your wife as Christ? Loves the church. What should husbands be doing to fulfill that mandate in Scripture?

[Pastor Todd]

Dishes vacuuming. I do my own laundry. I do my own IRA. Not trying to challenge anyone tonight.

[MCG]

You’re stopping by toast, pasta.

[Jay]

I’m saying preach. Pastor. Preach. Yes, Lord, yes.

[Rebecca]

And I’ve never asked him to do any of. Those things.

[Pastor Todd]

Some of that is because I’m just particular about it. So no, I tell you what, I’ll give you one perfect example. I know when my wife is low on vitamin D and so I know that my wife needs some time in the sun. Her and her family love the sun and they could spend days in the sun. Their skin tone is that of Native Americans, because there’s Native American in their blood. And so they tan beautifully, and they have darker skin and she just can soak up the sun. I know when every few months just needs that get away and she needs to soak up some sun because she feels better. And, you know, that’s just something that we’ve learned through the years of marriage. Is I’m the one that if I’m gonna be in the sun, I want to be doing something. So I want to be snorkeling. I want to be playing volleyball, something like that. That makes it worth it to be out in the sun. She’s like, no, I just want to hear the ocean breezes and soak up the sun and get the vitamin D. And so it is recognizing the needs of your spouse and doing what you can to help fulfill those. And I’m giving you a tongue in cheek one. But I do know every now and again, my brother takes opportunity to rent a place in South Carolina every year, and I really try to have it so that. She goes whether I can go or not because she needs it and and I do try to go, but there are challenges and I think first Peter Chapter 3 and verse #7, the Bible says dwell with them. According to knowledge. I’m not the same one that she married in 1990. New she’s not the same one that I married in 1992, but we both have to learn each other, and that is a challenge that is a never ending process to learn. You know what we can my parents have been married for 58 years. My dad is not the same man. That my mom married in 1965. My mom is not the same one because there are just changes that occur. And when you realize that, you have to continually be learning your spouse. And you know, adapt to whatever they’re dealing with. Health issues play a part in it. Career changes play a part in it. The loss of children plays a part in it. We have a recent missionary family where they have 3 great boys and the middle son’s life was tragically taken. That’s going to impact the husband and the wife different. I know if I speak on behalf of my wife, what it would do to her heart if we were to lose one of our two, and I can’t imagine the struggles that are there and the challenges that people face. But just being there and loving, you know, our spouse as Christ loved the church, Christ gave himself for it so long time ago, a preacher said. That we as husbands. Are willing to take out the trash, but we’re not willing to jump in front of the trash truck to. Spare our spouse. And he was just challenging us with. We’ll do the little things that are related to the marriage, but we won’t really sacrifice in the big things.

[Rebecca]

I think it also is recognizing that we’re a team. And so you’re working together, you know, not combative, but cooperative. So it is teamwork and there are days when he’s down and I’m. Up in an opposite and you’re just trying to encourage each other and.

[Pastor Todd]

Yeah, the Bible says two are better than one. And there’s a reason for that. There are many days that I’ll come home and I’m like, I’m quitting. I’m done. Rebecca’s, like, come on, stay at it. Prepare. One more message and. Other days I. Come home and she says you spend too much time in. The ministry stay at home, stay at home, stay at home.

[Rebecca]

I’m tired. Let’s retire.

[Pastor Todd]

And you know. Not that old, and I’m supposed to be planning my retirement in the next three months. So there are challenges.

[MCG]

I heard faster. Miss Rebecca. Let’s wrap it up with this verse. It features Chapter 5, verse 31 and 32, he said for this cause, shall a man leave his father and mother and shall be John and his wife. And they too shall be 1 flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. What do you want the world to know about Christ? Nice church, as demonstrated through your marriage.

[Rebecca]

I say he loves us as we are. Regardless of all the imperfections, and we can look at our spouse that way and say. We want them to love us as we are in spite of our imperfections.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Todd]

That’s a great answer.

[MCG]

Yeah, man, that’s the third, miss Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Jay]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Did you know that you could find us on Twitter, Gab Parlor, Facebook and Reddit, go to removingbarriers.net/contact and like and follow us on social media, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross?

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get a hold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to removingbarriers.net. This has been the removing barriers podcast. We attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.