Episode 133

In modern English parlance, the word “church” is either a hierarchical organization or an activity people do on the weekend. Rarely is it defined as the scriptures define it: a people bought by the shed blood of Christ, called out of the world to reconcile the world to God for the glory of God. On this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, we sit down with pastor John Leber to scratch the surface of this word, “church;” what or who it is, what is it supposed to do, and why does it matter? Prayerfully, this episode will help us realign our thinking about this entity with what God has already established in His Word.

[Pastor Leber]

You know, there was. A time when I believed, as a younger Christian that the church began on the day of Pentecost. But I do not hold to that anymore. I hold to that the church was established the moment Jesus Christ selected his first disciple.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 133 of the Removing Barriers Podcast, and in this episode. We will be talking about the doctrine and polity of the church and joining us in this episode is Pastor John Leber, pastor of Gateway Baptist Church in Kissimmee, FL. If you’re ever in Central Florida area and looking for a solid church, do visit the Gateway Baptist Church in Kissimmee. Pastor Leber is a pleasure and welcome to the Removing Barriers Podcast.

[Pastor Leber]

Thank you very much for having me. Let’s get started on this. You want to talk about the church? We’ll talk about the church.

[MCG]

Well, let’s get into it.

[Pastor Leber]

All righty.

[MCG]

So there’s a. Lot of misconception of the church. So we got to try to go through some of them and just kind of ask you some questions and you can answer them as you see typically from the scripture is the church a building?

[Pastor Leber]

Well, let’s put it this way. The church is not a physical building. It is a spiritual building. It is a building of people who have come to the. Saving knowledge of. The Lord Jesus Christ and we are part of that church, that Jesus Christ has built, but there is a visible church which is the local New Testament church, and of course. Not every member of the local New Testament Church is a member of the True Church of Jesus Christ. Unless you’ve come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not a member of the church. Whether you’re a member of a local. New Testament Church or any other church out there.

[Jay]

Pastor, you mentioned any other church out there that leads into our next question is the church a specific denomination? I know that the Catholic Church has a very. Explicit idea about what they consider the church to be and whether or not someone is in it. There are hundreds of denominations, both now in America and throughout the ages, is the church a specific denomination?

[Pastor Leber]

The only denomination that the church is is that you have to be born again. You have to be in a personal relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ. Then you are a member of the True Church of Jesus Christ. You know some. People differentiate in terms. Of what? The church is the Catholic Church believes if you are not a Catholic, you’re not a member of the church, you’re not a. Member of that. And they call it the Universal Church. I do not call it. There is no such thing as a universal church. There is a Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that’s the only church and the thing of it. Is is it talks about? That well, it talks about that in Hebrews 12/22 and 23. It talks about the General Assembly. Now the word there in the Greek means a festive assembly, but the word right after that it says. The Church of the 1st. Born I’m a member of the. Church of the 1st. Born because Jesus Christ is. The first born. According to Matthew 1616 through 18, he is. The first fruit. He is the first born. So I’m a member. Of that church, the Church of the first born and everyone. Who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ? As their personal savior is a member of the Church of the First Born, now this church. Has not met yet. It will meet for the first time. At what we. Call the catching up or the Rapture and Jesus Christ will come for his bride. And so Jesus Christ will come for his bride and we, which are alive, will be caught up. If that so happens. But the dead in Christ shall rise. 1st and then we which are alive will be caught up in the air to meet with the Lord, and that’s the first time it meets and then. It will meet. At the marriage supper of the lamb and it will meet throughout heaven. And then when Jesus Christ comes back to set up his Kingdom after the tribulation, he comes to set up his Kingdom. The thousand year reign of Christ. Then we the church will come back and we will govern. With the Lord Jesus Christ, all the nations of the world. And so that’s the church I belong to. I do belong to the local New Testament church. That’s the visible arm of the church. But not everybody in the visible church doesn’t matter which denomination you are, whether you’re Presbyterian, whether you’re Catholic, whether you’re Lutheran. Your denomination doesn’t get you into heaven. Only the Lord Jesus Christ does. And when you get saved, you are positioned. We call it positional sanctification. We are taken. Out of this. World and we are set apart for the Lord’s work and we are put into his family and we are positioned and so we are a member of the true church. Of Jesus Christ.

[MCG]

No, ma’am.

[Pastor Leber]

And that’s what I like to call it. Some people call it, you know, by different names, but I believe that the true Church of Jesus Christ or as it says in Hebrews, we always have to go. Back to the scriptures. The Scriptures are the final authority, so we need to go to the scriptures and see what the scriptures say. And of course in that Hebrews 12/22 and 23. It talks about the Church of the first born. While Jesus Christ is the first boy. He’s the foundation. He’s the head of the church and we are his body. So it’s a spiritual house that we are building. Not everybody, not every denomination. People from every denomination are in the church if they believe and accept the free gift of salvation through the. Lord Jesus Christ. That’s the only way you get in. There’s no other way in.

[MCG]

Let me ask this pastor. So in Matthew chapter 16, verse 18, and you have acts Chapter 2 and I guess I should say many scholars have debated since time has begun that the church was established either in Matthew Chapter 16. Verse 18 on extracted. You let me ask you who established the church and when was the church established?

[Pastor Leber]

You went to there, but I usually go to Matthew Chapter 4. You know, there was a time when I believed, as a younger Christian that the church began on the day of Pentecost. But I do not hold to that anymore. I hold to that. The church was established the moment Jesus Christ selected his first disciple. And so we go to Matthew. Chapter 4 verses 18 and 19 and he says. And Jesus walked by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and Andrew, his brother, and casting their Nets into. The sea for. They were fishermen. And he said. Unto them, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. So when he selected his. First disciple is when the church began. Now the empowering of the church did happen at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit. Coming down and indwelling the believer, but. As to the start of the church, Jesus Christ. Cause Jesus Christ said in Matthew 16. You know, it talks about upon this rock. Well, he’s talking about himself. He’s not talking about Peter. There’s a play on words there. And if you look at the Greek words, it means that I’m the foundation. I will establish my church and of course. The gates of. Hell will not prevail against it, you know? So you have that all right there. So the thing of it is, is the church is Jesus Christ. It’s also his body. It’s also his bride. He’s the husband, and we’re his bride. And so that’s why we go to the marriage. Upper of the land during the Rapture or the catching up before the tribulation. So that’s why the true Church of Jesus Christ is everyone that has placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Look at. The first person to the last person. Until the rapture. And that is the church now. God has his special people, the Jews and Israel, and he will deal with them at an appropriate time. But right now we are in what we call the dispensation of grace, or the, as some scholars put it, we are in. The dispensation of the church, or the time of the Gentile? And so he is dealing with. His New Testament people, the new Covenant people, he will deal with his old covenant people again during the thousand year reign and also during the Tribulation period. He will deal with his old covenant people during that time. You know, as they say, we are the wild olives that are grafted into the olive tree. Israel being the olive tree, we being the church. And so if God will spank his children, Israel, he’ll also.

Speaker

My God.

[Jay]

Pastor, you mentioned that the church is the bride of Christ, that we will be caught up at the Rapture and that will be the first time the church meets. You mentioned that the church will be there at the marriage supper of the lamb being his bride, so it sounds like we’re a very special group of people, those that are actually in the body of Christ, that are actually of the church. Which and yet, and particularly in a country like America, where its founding is Christian Ish, you would find a lot of people that will just casually say ohh yeah, I’m a Christian, I’m safe. I’m this or the other and they trivialize it. Could you explain to us what is so special about the church and not just today in this country? Now, but across history from when it was established, what’s so special about the church?

[Pastor Leber]

Well, what’s special about the church is that we were given a Commission and that Commission was to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unto the uttermost parts of the world we’re to do it locally, and we are to do it. Worldwide were to give the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and he has given that as our responsibility. Now we save nobody. The church saves nobody. I save nobody it is. The power of the Lord. Jesus Christ working in one’s heart. What I’m supposed to do is present. I’m supposed to proclaim I’m supposed to be an advocate. I’m supposed to be a mouth, as they said in the old days for the gangsters, a mouthpiece. And that was a lawyer. I’m supposed to be the mouthpiece of God here on Earth. I’m supposed to present. That glorious gospel unto a lost and dying world. Now I don’t change them. The Holy Spirit changes them, and so, but I am to present. So I’m not responsible for them getting saved. I’m responsible for presenting the message. Of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so. That is an. Important role for us as believers. You know why not? If it was all about just getting saved, why didn’t the Lord just take us up the minute we get saved and we don’t have to worry about this anymore? We’re out of here and we don’t have to deal with the world anew because. His plan was that we, the people, his people. Was spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. And that’s so. Important for us as a church to. Do we’re to worship God through two prongs, and those two prongs are evangelizing the world. And also edify. Buying believers or building them up, helping them to grow in the grace. When you get positioned, we call it positional sanctification. When you get safe, then there is a part that says. Now you have to go progressive. I know people hate that word. Progressive, but progressive sanctification. We need to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to become more and more like. Jesus Christ every. Day when people see you coming. They ought to see Christ. They ought to see Christ. In you, we’re to be and don’t get me wrong, I’m not endorsing. There were a group. A religious group and I’m going to say a religious, a false religious group called. The monies. Well, you know. We know that the moon, the moon up in the sky does not produce any light. It reflects the light of the sun. The SUN. It reflects the light and then we see the moon. Well, we as Christians, we are to reflect the light of the Lord Jesus Christ. We’re to be, as I would say, moonies. For the Lord were to reflect that unto the world, and so that they can see the light, and that they can respond to. That light, however, the Holy Spirit moves in their heart, and that’s important for the church to do. That’s one of our most important things. When Jesus dealt with the woman at the well. She says. I perceive that you’re you’re a great. Teacher and you’re a master. You know, you know, you know this stuff and. She said, oh, I perceived that you’re. This great teacher. Well, then, she asked the question. She said our father say you gotta worship God in this mountain. And your people, the Jews. You say you. Got to worship in Jerusalem, but Jesus said that what we have to worship God in spirit and truth and who? Is the truth. Jesus Christ, that I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the father, but by me there is only one way to heaven. There is only one Rd. that leads that direction. All these other religions are man’s attempt to reach. Not, but the personal relationship with Jesus Christ to a believer is God’s attempt to reach man. And so that’s what the church is about, and that’s what the church is. We are a spiritual building and when we’re missing one person or one part, you know, not everybody can be an eye. Not everybody can be a mouth. Not everybody. Could be a hand or feet. We all have a job to do. In this spiritual house, and so God gives us the Holy Spirit, gives us certain abilities, some speaking, some singing. Some people have multiple gifts from the Lord, some have only one, but we’re to use it to bring honor and glory. To the Lord Jesus Christ in our worship. And that’s what the church is supposed to do. It’s supposed to worship. The Lord Jesus Christ.

[MCG]

So let me ask you this. So someone gets saved and let me say this young man get ordained. How does this young man go about establishing a church, declaring the purpose for his church and all that stuff? Can anybody just decide they’re going to start a church?

[Pastor Leber]

I can’t hear you now, but I think you said something about. Can anybody be ordained and? Establish a church. Well, first of all. You have to. Be called to salvation. That’s the general call. Now, if God. So calls you to. A special calling of being a pastor or an evangelist. That’s fine. But the church or? The believers around you are the ones that will see that in you and then they will be the ones. Who agree with God that you’re called of God to go and start and establish a church, and so they will help you in that endeavor to go do that. But you have to be. Called of God. It’s not well, I’m just. Let me put it this way, I got saved. When I was 16 years old, I’m in the minority as far as how it happened. Most people get saved through the personal touch. One-on-one thing I got saved at a crusade. So that’s the 5% that gets saved through it, like a Billy Graham crusade. It was a Sawyer crusade and I got saved. At that crusade, I went back to my church at the. Time, which was a United Methodist Church. And after I explained it to the pastor. Oh, that’s nice. Oh, that’s good. Oh, that’s OK. I came to the conclusion after a few months of continuing to go. To that church. That the pastor was not saved.

[MCG]

Oh wow.

[Pastor Leber]

It was a vocation to him it was. Choosing a job no God chooses men to serve. In his church and in his ministry, you know he chose Moses. He chose Daniel. He chose Joseph. He chose Joshua all through the history of Israel and, you know, follow suit. He chose Paul. Paul was going where to Damascus to persecute Christians. He was on the. Road I’m doing God’s will. God’s wills is that. I get these. People who. Are subverting the Jewish religion. Yet Jesus Christ appeared to him. And said. You’re a vessel. I’m going to use you. I’m going to use you to establish many churches, and that’s what Paul did well at that time. He was Saul, but then he became Paul. So he was used of God to establish many churches, and he was what he was, the apostle to. The gentile. Everywhere Paul went, where did he take the gospel? First he took the gospel to the Jews. Every place he went, if there was not a place where there was a synagogue, he went to the place of water and that’s where the Jewish people would gather is at the water. And so he would go there and he would. Give them the. Gospel first. I remember 1. Of my professors. Well, it’s. Was he at Doctor Barry Leventhal was my professor, but his friend wrote a book. His name was Doctor Arnold Luckenbach, and he was head of Ariel Ministry. And he wrote a book and it was called Israel analogy. The missing link of systematic theology. And it dealt with the issue of Jews. We’re still to take the gospel to the Jews. Wherever they are, we’re still to take. It to now they may. Not, you know, like it anybody else, they may just reject. They may just say no, no, no, don’t want. It, but we’re still to. Take the message of the Lord Jesus Christ to them. I say it is all about Jesus. The church is all about Jesus. It’s his institution. There are three institutions that God ordained first family, human govern. And the church. And so they’re the three. And God ordained them. The governor, the President of the United States, the King of England. They are supposed to be ministers of God unto the people, so that we can live a peaceful life and that we can worship God. The way God intended us. Now we know that that doesn’t always happen because people get in positions of power and authority, not the right way. They get into these places where they shouldn’t be, but you know, God allows that. That’s all part of what we always call permissive will of God. Nothing surprises God. You can’t surprise God. God knows everything that’s going to happen. He even. Knew about this. Tragedy that was unfolding out there near the Titanic. But he’s in control. He still sits on the throne and he’s still in charge of this universe.

[MCG]

Let me ask this pastor. So you seem like you’re of the opinion that the Great Commission was given to the church. Was it given to the church or was it given to individual Christian?

[Pastor Leber]

It was given to both the Great Commission. Is to the church, but it is also to the individual of Christian wherever we go in our walk, we are to carry the Gospel of Jesus Christ so. If you work a secular job like I did with the Secret Service, I’m still to present the gospel. I’m still to give. Out the message of the good news. Now of course. There are limitations on how you can do, but you know people go. Well, life stuff. Well, hey, look, we’re all supposed. To be walking in a manner worthy. Of Our Calling. We’re supposed to be walking. We’re supposed to be progressing and becoming more. Like Jesus Christ. So that people. See you and when they see you. They say, hey, there’s something different about you. There’s something extraordinary about you. Tell me what it is and it gives you opportunity to share. Well, it’s because of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s not because of me. So the Commission is given. To the church. But it is also given to the individual believer each and every believer is responsible to share the good. News of the. Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a command. It’s not a suggestion and it is a command to every local New Testament church, no matter how big or how small they are. A small church. But we have 21 missionaries worldwide because. We’re commanded not. Just to spread the gospel in our Jerusalem or our Samaria. Ten were to do it to the uttermost parts of the world, and so every church is responsible to carry that message. The good news of the Gospel to the whole world. And each individual. You take time. You’re traveling, you’re on an airplane. You’re gonna catch a flight. And there’s a thing you’re giving the gospel to somebody. Will you miss that? If it means somebody getting saved. Because you’re giving them the gospel. You’re giving them the. But you’re they’re they’re telling. Boarding time is now. Get on your flight or you’re gonna miss it. You know, we ought to think about eternity not just what’s in front of us at the moment. We need to think eternally. And we need to. Think if I don’t give this gospel to this person. They may die and they may go to hell. Without having that testimony. So I’m supposed to give it and, you know, and I may not see the fruit, I may not see the fruit. You know, it’s like Paul said, you know, Paulus Waters, I, you know, somebody plants the seed, somebody waters and then another person comes along and. Picks the fruit. Well, hey, but we’re all involved in that.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Leber]

We’re all involved with that. So that’s why we send out our missionaries. We’re a part of their ministry. We’re a part of when they have 2123 or 24 people safe that goes into our account because we’re supporting them in doing the work for the Lord Jesus Christ and to establish a new church, a New Testament church in that foreign land. So it is like I said, it is both the church’s responsibility, but it’s also the. Individual’s responsibility carries forth the gospel.

[MCG]

Hey, man, you’re listening to the removing various podcasts. We’re sitting down with Pastor John Lieber, and we are talking about the church. The doctrine and the polity. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

This is the removing barriers podcast. If the podcast or the blog were a blessing to you, leave us a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. And don’t forget to share the podcast with your friends, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross. Do you have the desire to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered? To the Saint. Answers in Genesis can help. They provide biblically sound books, CD’s, DVD’s, home schooling materials, VBS materials, online courses, digital downloads, and the Answers magazine and more. Plus tickets to the Creation Museum and Ark encounter. Go to the answers book store by clicking the link in the description section below so you too can be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks the reason of the hope that is in you.

[MCG]

Our pastor lieber. As we get back into this discussion, one course sender is on my mind is it’s about church governance. How should the church be manage? What’s the role of the pastor, the Deacons? The members? How do we go about setting bylaws and all that stuff? Should they be something universal or each individual local body have their own? The way they do things are they norms. Customs tell us about that.

[Pastor Leber]

I would say. There are a lot of churches out. There that have. You know, whether it’s a Presbyterian style of government or it’s a board type government or if it’s a pastor led church or it’s a congregational led church. They’re all different types of governments out there, but the. Overriding rule is that this church belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. His word, the Bible, governs everything that we do in the church. We do not run this church as a secular business, we run it. The way God has put it, and Paul. Put it in the epistles. He put how the church is you read the Ephesians. You read the different thing Colossians. You see how? The church is supposed to operate. The pastor is not to Lord it over everyone. The pastor is not a dictator. The pastor is supposed to in spiritual matters he leads. He leads as long as he is following the word of God. As long as he’s following what thus sayeth. The Lord God everything else. You know. We are a priesthood of believers. Working together to do God’s will. But the pastor? Has that because he’s called of God to. Be the pastor. I told the church when I came here. It has to be 100%. It has to be 100%. The unanimous vote for me to come here and I told him. I said the. Other thing is. You have to agree with God that I’m God’s. Man for this church. If you don’t agree with that. Then I shouldn’t be your pastor. And so it is that understanding that God is in charge, Jesus Christ, is that I tell my church this all the time I’m the under Shepherd. To the Great shepherd. The Lord Jesus Christ, this is his church. And I am to run it. His way, not my way. And so I have to. Look to the. Word of God and I have to run the church according to what God’s words. And I’ll give you an example of a church that I was in and I. Won’t say which. Church it was. I was the pastor of the church and thing. But it was that. I came to the Deacons and I said we have to put a person under church discipline and you should have seen their draws. You should have seen. Their jaws drop. Like we can’t do that. That’s not I says the Bible says the church can put a member under church discipline. I says after there’s a procedure, there’s. A way you do it and you never do. It out of spite. You do it in love to restore that. Brother, back to fellowship. But they said no, you can’t do that. You can’t. You can’t do that. I said the Bible says we can and I says. When we run, as long as I’m pastor here. We run the church. The way God wants to run the church. Not the way. John Lieber wants to run to church. We have to follow the word of God, so whatever church government now my church leaders are not to lorded over their flock. They’re not too. I’m in charge. You do it my way and it doesn’t matter if you don’t like it. Hit the door and don’t let it hit you in the behind as you leave. Excuse me? No, we run it according. To the word of God. In the independent fundamental movement. There are a lot of churches that are run top down, whatever the pastor says. That’s the way it. Happens now if in spiritual matters, if he’s following the word of God, I’m the follow that man.

[MCG]

Follow me as I follow Christ.

[Pastor Leber]

Right. What Paul said. But if he goes against what the word of God says, I have every right to be a good berean. And I can search the scriptures to see if it’s so and if it’s not. So I don’t. Have to follow. That man, I don’t have to follow where he’s going or what he’s leading. And some churches have, you know, because their pastors doctrinal beliefs had changed from the 10 basic fundamental doctrines. They had to ask a pastor to leave because. He said, well, you know. It wasn’t an Angel that came and. Stirred the water of the pool. Of Salam. It was could have been a demon that could have been anything. I’m sitting there going well, the scripture said it was an Angel. We go by what the word of God says. We don’t go by what man says. We follow the word of God because. He’s perfect. We’re not. He’s infinite. We’re finite. That’s why I tell my congregation. Do not put the pastor up on a pedestal. I said the. Only person that should be on that pedestal is the Lord Jesus Christ. And guess what? Every one of us falls short.

Speaker

Of that.

[Pastor Leber]

We fall short. And so many churches have fallen apart because. The pastor runs off with, you know, and never. Mind we won’t. Go there. But the pastor does so and off it goes, and then there’s a church there, or there’s a church split over music or this that never. I say, hey, there’s a difference between Christian music. Let me put it this way. I don’t call it Christian music. Because you can put Christian in front of every type of music there is, but that doesn’t make it godly music. The standard is godly music. It’s sort of like the thing, you know, I know some churches have had this argument about clothing. And what’s appropriate for a woman to wear and what’s appropriate for a man to wear in the church service? Matter of fact, one of them was my wife was singing, and her accompaniment person didn’t have stockings on. Well, they were told they weren’t allowed. To be on the. Platform because they didn’t have stock and I said back there said excuse me. The standard. For God. Is modesty both for men and women and clothes that pertain to a woman’s are women’s clothes and clothes that have pertain to men? Are men’s clothes, you know, some fundamental churches say you wear a pair of slacks. Well, let me see. Is that suit designed for a woman or is it designed for a man? My thing is, modesty is the key. I don’t want it in my face. Modesty, both male and female. It’s supposed to be modesty. And so, you know, wearing tight fitting jeans. And I remember when I was a youth pastor, I told 2 girls that in my youth group they had to go home. Of course, this was back in the day when many skirts were in. And also those very tight. Knit sweaters. I can’t think of the name of the sweater, but they’re tight and you could see all the boys. In the group. You know you can see their jaws drop and their eyes, and then they’re just staring at the girls, I said. You are your brothers keeper. I said what you’re wearing is affecting them and I told them it also is affecting me. I said go home and change. Change your clothes to a more modest apparel, and of course, these two girls were deacons, daughters. And I says I’ll take it up with. Your dads. At a later time. Say if it is is, we either follow the standard that God said. See my standards are preferences. I like blue over yellow. Or green. That’s a preference, but when God sets a standard. Some people say, well, that’s legalistic. I said no. When God sets a standard. His standard is an absolute. He commands us to carry forth the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s not a suggestion, it’s a command of God. We’re to be obedient. Jesus said. If you love me. Keep my commandments, do what I have written in this book, the Word of God, the 66 books of the Bible. This is the standard. My wife always likes to say Bible basic instructions before leaving Earth. Everything we need to know is in. The word of God.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Leber]

Don’t know anything else. The word of God is the final authority, and so we ought to follow. It as the same with the church. And it’s the. Same with how the church operates. It has. To be the word. Of God, you say the purpose as the church moved away from the. Purpose was one of the questions. I would tell you most definitely. Most definitely, the church has. Let me put it this way. It was the Methodist. In the Great Awakening and the circuit riders. Who were carrying the gospel? All over the United States. They were going to 5/10/15 churches. They were called the Singing Methodist. But look where they are now. When you compromise with the world, when you start compromising. The principles of God’s word. Then you get into trouble, and that’s where a lot of the churches are. They’re in trouble. The Church of Leia the sea. What did God say? And I believe that the seven churches represent the type churches that we have out here today. They’re seven of them. But the predominant one today is the Church of the lay of the sea. And what is the lay of the? Sea of me, it means people. ‘S rights. Boy, do you hear a lot? About that I have right. I have her dead men don’t have rights. If you’re dead in Christ, you don’t have rights. Jesus Christ has the right. To control. What you say what you do, where you go. He is in charge, Paul said. What I crucify my flesh on what a daily basis because I want to do the things that God wants me to do and not the things I want to do. And so those are some of the things. That we have, we have to be careful. We always have. To come back to. The word of God and we. Always have to keep our focus on Jesus. Christ, he is the central figure of the Bible. He is the central figure of the universe, and we got to keep our focus on him. And he is the head of. The church and. So he is the. Leader, you know, follow the leader. Let me put it one more way and and I know there’s no such thing. If an alien came down here. To earth and ask you to take him to your leader. Where would you take him? Would you take him to the? White House? Or would you take?

[MCG]

For an alien, maybe.

[Pastor Leber]

I think I’m the God’s house.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Leber]

But I’m saying, you know, that’s it. It’s what you’re focused on.

[MCG]

Yeah, definitely.

[Pastor Leber]

That’s the most important thing.

[MCG]

Yeah, I would imagine. Can you imagine Biden talking to Ellen anyways, I think you called it off trouble.

[Pastor Leber]

They wouldn’t understand. We won’t go there.

[MCG]

Everyone you mentioned church discipline. Pastor Church Discipline is a hot topic. I personally have not observed church discipline in the US. Of course I’m from the Caribbean. I’m not saying it has never happened in my church. I just I’m not personally seen it. That could be because it happened. And it’s happened somewhat privately. Maybe the deacons may know about the other members may not know. How should church discipline couple? Should you know? Should everyone in the church know this brother or sisters on the this? Should it be a public affair or a private affair between the pastor and maybe a few trusted deacons? How do you go about doing it? How do you do it in love?

[Pastor Leber]

Well, we do it the Bible way and the Bible way has a procedure. First you go to your brother, you try to win your brother back. If that doesn’t. Work you take a few others with you. And present it. And if that doesn’t work, then you bring it. Before the whole congregation. And the thing of it is is church discipline. Is never there to hurt somebody. It’s there to bring that brother back into the fold. And so I’ve seen church discipline done. The right way? And I’ve seen it done the wrong way and when you do not follow the procedures of how church discipline is set up in the word. God, that is the wrong way to do church. And when you’re just doing it to punish somebody, that is the wrong thing. You are trying to restore. Jesus gave us the Ministry of reconciliation. Our ministry is to build one another up, not tear one another down. I see it in churches and I haven’t been around as long as a lot of the other pastors, but I’ve seen it in churches where it just tears people apart. It pits one group against another group and this. That you know, and I just say that’s wrong. Let’s do it the Bible way. Do it in love. If your motive is to hurt the person. If your motive is to punish the person, then that’s the wrong motive and the discipline should not be undertaken. But if you’re. Motive is to restore that person to fellowship. Just the fellowship to you, but fellowship. To the Lord. That is the right motive for church. Discipline and I’ve seen it done. Properly and it works just the way it’s supposed to work. But then again, you have to convince your congregation you have to convince the people to do it the right way, because there are always somebody out there that says. Well, I don’t care what brother, so and so did.

Speaker

Right.

[Pastor Leber]

I’m still gonna have fellowship with him. Well, then what you’re doing is. You’re going against. What the Lord? Said if you put somebody on church discipline, you’re to put them out lovingly until they repent and they have to come back and repent. If it’s a public matter. It needs to be a public repentance. If it is a private matter. It needs to be a private now. I had a incident with my son when he was going. School, where the teacher Christian School teacher ridiculed my son and told him that he was cheating and all this other stuff. In front of. The whole class and all that thing that he didn’t turn in his homework assignments. And this, that and the. Other thing and my son did all that. He turned it in and then after it was all shown and everything. He took his homework stuff and threw it. Away because it was the end. The semester and what was the end of the year and he got rid of it and they called me up and brought me in and said, well, we don’t have all his materials. Or this that. And the other thing, and this is the way it went. And so the headmaster of the school said to me, he goes well. Would your son lie? Listen, let me tell you the truth. My son’s more afraid of what’s going to happen to him at home than he is from any discipline that you do. Now. My son said he did the work he did the work. So I went home. And I hadn’t taken the trash out and. I went through. The trash and I found all his assignments except for one. I brought it back in, had to sit down with the principal and the teacher and I handed him. The stuff and. I said here’s the assignments and everything I said. I couldn’t find one, but I said I know he did it and they go. OK, all right. We accept it. And then. The teacher says well. I’ll apologize to him privately. And I looked at the principal and I looked at the. Teacher and I said no, you won’t. You’ve ridiculed that boy in front of his whole class. You will apologize to him in front of the.

Speaker

Whole class.

[Pastor Leber]

And the teacher refused to do that. And the principal didn’t say anything, so I just. Said fine, but I’m just. Saying this is on you guys. You did it. It was a public. Public sin? Then it needs to be a acknowledgement in public. You have to apologize in public, I said. If it’s a private matter between you and the teacher, then a private apology is fine. Well, it’s the same in the church. When you do something that brings. Disrepute to the church. Then you need to publicly. Repent of your sin before the whole congregation, and then we bring you in as a brother again. We bring you back into the group as if it never happened. And we’re not to remind the person. Of it, you know this. It has these long memories, they. Always go back and they they go well, yeah. Ohh remember five years ago. Excuse me. Forget what happened five years ago. If you forgave that person, you’re to forget it and you’re to move on and you’re. To serve God. You’re not to keep bringing it up. You know, in front of the person and trying. To humiliate them again, you’re to leave it go and just let it go. The Lord’s taking care of that, and that’s what church discipline is all about. It’s about restoring somebody to right relationship with the Lord and with the church, and that’s what we use it for. And it’s to be. Used sparingly, you know most of the time, just going. To talk to your. Brother is enough. You say, brother, you know? You offended me in this area. We need to talk about this. And then you know, if you win your brother, then you’ve gained a friend. For life, for really. And so those are the things. But a lot of. People you know well, I don’t care. I won’t have. Nothing to do with you have sometimes. In the church. Where there’s no, I don’t wanna pick on women or or thing. But I’ll say men this time. But there’s one man way over here, sitting in this side of the church. And there’s another guy sitting, you know, 3 sections over in another part of the church. And they haven’t spoken to each other in in 20 years. Because of an offense back then, it’s sort of like the Hatfields and the McCoy. He’s, you know, all. He’s constantly fighting, if you know the old, you know, West Virginia. I knew we had a Real McCoy that. I had a Hatfield who was living next to me in Alexandria and so. The feuds were. Still going on? They still, you know, sit down. Get it right before the Lord. And then forgive, forget and move on in service to the Lord because either way you do it outside of that way, you’re bringing disrespect and disrepute to. The Lord Jesus. And so it’s all about bringing honor. Glory and praise to Jesus Christ, and we don’t do that by fighting amongst ourselves. We’re to build one another up.

[Jay]

After we’re to build one another up and you know what they say, Pastor people or people, people have their preferences. They have their. In many ways, that’s one of the reasons why we have so many denominations, right. We have a group of people who say, well, hey, women should wear head coverings and this group doesn’t believe they should. And so they split off and go off into their own denomination. Or this wants no instruments in the orchestra. There shouldn’t be an orchestra. Well, we should just be singing a cappella. And they split over that. I mean, we can understand why there are so many different denominations. And we can understand how because people are people, how they run their churches will be different. Although, as you said, it should all come back and be grounded in and be followed as far as the word of God says that these things are to be done, but now we’re living in an age pastor where. With the proliferation increase in access to the Internet and to. On social media, there are sermons and lessons and gatherings and zoom meetings that are happening as church events all the time and people have come to say, you know, now that we have all of these things and as a result of the pandemic, we can see that a lot of churches. Met over technology so we know it works. Why do we even need a church? Why do we need to go to church? Why do we need the church? We may not even really need it. What do you say to someone who would say or who would ask that question? Why do we even need a church? What would your answer be to them?

[Pastor Leber]

Well, the question you know and I know about all the electronics and all the different methods of going to church through the Internet and this that. But the one key thing that you will not get. Is the fellowship. We are a relational people. We were designed by God to have a personal relationship with him. And we are. Physically we are a relationship people and that fellowship is important. It is important for us to grow. I can listen to sermons and this, that and outlines on the Internet, and sometimes they get a lot out of it and sometimes I. Say, well, that’s full of baloney. That’s garbage. That’s not coming from the word of. God, that’s whatever that person thinks. I says let’s go back to what? The God’s word said. But the fellowship? The sweet. Fellowship of being a family when you were unsaved, you were an enemy of God. You were in this world, you were an enemy of God, and when you got saved, you became a friend of God. But more than that. You were taken out of this world and you were placed into the family of God. Families relate to one another. They relate, you know, and sometimes they can have knock down, drag out fights. But we’re family and we’re to treat one another with that type of respect, and we’re to treat one another as that type of relationship, you know. And when I was growing. Up. You know what me and my brother, we fought like dogs. I mean, we were constantly at each other’s throat. But when somebody came after my brother, you wouldn’t know who the first person was. There to defend him.

[Jay]

It was you. I’m sure.

[Pastor Leber]

So the thing of it is. Yeah, family fight in the church. There are fights. But the thing of it is, is that should not stop us from fellowshipping. And that should not stop us from loving the Lord. We’re here at the church. Can you worship God in your house? Yes, you can. But we are here corporately. To worship the Lord. Jesus Christ. And you can’t do that from you. House, you can’t do that. Watching it on the screen, you can’t feel the spirit moving amongst the congregation. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not charismatic, but there there is. You can feel. The energy and the passion when you’re there. You know, it’s like, let me put this.

Speaker

Right.

[Pastor Leber]

When I played football. When I wrestled. And they played the national anthem. At the event, whether it be a Olympic style event or this, that and the other thing, the emotions just welled up and I felt. I’m a part of this. And that’s the same thing in church. The fellowship is what’s important. The Fellowship, not just. Bored, but with the people. And so we need to have that fellowship. I had a friend who matter of fact, he’s been in the church for 27 years now, which I’m kind of surprised. But when I first met him 40 years ago, he wouldn’t go to church. He was a believer, but he would not go to church. He wouldn’t go to a Baptist Church. He wouldn’t go to a Bible church. He wouldn’t go to any churches because they’re all hypocrites. Everyone of them is a hypocrite and I told him I said, well, I said to him and I won’t use his name. But I said to him is a. When you find a perfect church, don’t join it. Because it won’t be perfect anymore. Because you’ll be a member, I said. There is no perfect churches out there. People are people. When we got saved, we got a brand. New spiritual nature. But that old. Fleshy human nature did. Go anywhere. It’s still there. And so if you feed to the flesh or you sow to the flesh, you’re going to reap. The things of the flesh or the. Things of this world. If you sow to the spirit, you are going to reap spiritual things and you’re going to understand that we are to love, you know. Our motto at Gateway Baptist Church is love God. Love others serve both. We’re to serve one another. Where to take? Care of one another. ‘S I heard. A pastor one time say this. He came up to some people that were in the church and he. Says, you know, you may want to go. Down the street to this other church down here, they’re. More your kind of people.

[MCG]

Oh wow.

[Jay]

Excuse me.

[Pastor Leber]

The church is for everybody. It’s not for one particular. Group of people. It’s for all people and I tell you what I says. If somebody from Jamaica, I want them. If they’re from Antigua, come on. If they’re from West Virginia, never mind, we won’t get that. That’s a whole completely different country. Come on then. I don’t care. If you love the Lord. And you love the things. Of the Lord you want to serve the Lord. Hey, you’re welcome. If a Hell’s Angel guy, motorcycle guy comes in, they’re all tattooed up. And this, that and the other thing and has a big long ponytail and all that. Hey, you’re welcome. See, I’m not in the business changing. Your outward appearance. I’m in the business of allowing the Lord to change your heart and then through that heart change he changes the rest of you and you become a person of God that will interrelate with other people and share the good news of the gospel. And be willing to. Come alongside another person. We’re not here to tear people down. We’re here to build people up. We’re here to grow the church, the true church. And not like I said. The true church. I’m not talking about the visible church. The visible church is the local New Testament church. Now it comes in all sizes in shape, but not everybody in that church is safe. The people who are safe are part of the true Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. And one day they will meet in the sky. To be with their savior. And so, you know, it’s all about that. That’s what I say. We have to be about taking care of one another, building one another up, doing the things that will bring honor and. Glory and praise to Jesus Christ. That’s how we worship him. We worship him through bringing honor, glory and pray when a person gets saved, all heaven rejoices.

[MCG]

And move.

[Pastor Leber]

And so that’s what we should be about. And unfortunately, too bad. Sometimes we get into this thing where we throw stones at our fellow believers across the aisle, and we ought not to do that, you know, and some people do worship differently. You know, I understand when people have the same language or they have the same culture. That they want to worship in that type of. Setting and this. That but you know. When you get to heaven. Do you think it’s going to be all island people? Do you think it’s going to be all the people from Europe? You think it’s going to be all the people from Africa you think it’s going to be all? The people from Asia, it’s going to be. A blended. Group of people from every walk of life from every.

[MCG]

But we definitely will have island food though.

[Pastor Leber]

You know well, you know, some people say, you know well, there won’t be no animals. And I said, well, I don’t know about that. Doesn’t the Lord come back on my horse? You know, some people say. Well, my dog won’t be in heaven because he’s dichotomy and and I’m trichotomy. And you know, of course we have. All these doctrinal issues and some people say that they believe in dichotomy. Others believe in Trichotomy, and I’m gonna tricholoma you know, it’s body, soul, and spirit. But the thing of it is 2 parts spiritual, one part physical. So that’s why I could say, like Nicodemus, you know, Jesus told me he. Said you must. Be born again? Well, when you’re born again, you only die once. If you’re not born. Then you die twice. You have the second death, you have your physical death, and you have your second death. So I’m. Of that old school. I look at it this way, the word of God has to be the final authority. It must be what? Thus sayeth the Lord God. In every area of of our lives. And you know. I’m not perfect. I don’t follow it perfectly. Matter of fact. When I was younger, there were some things in the Bible I. Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you’re wrong. God, you should have never struck that man dead. He was trying to help. He was holding on to that Ark so it wouldn’t fall. Off that car. There was no reason for you to kill him. You read the rules and the regulations that God had set for the carrying of the Ark. It had to be done by the Levites and it had to be done carrying it on staves, not an ox cart. Now, so when you learn something new in script. Sure that enlightens your eyes and the Holy Spirit enlightens you to it. Then you need to apply it to your life and that’s the hard part of a lot of Christians is making the application. To your own personal life, you know. Ohh well, yeah, yeah. Preach it. Preach it, brother. So and so needs that. What about you don’t? You need it. I’ve had many a time when somebody comes up to me at the end of the sermon and tells me all about the sermon and says, boy, my brother leader that really that really got to me. I’m sitting there. I turned to my wife. I said. Did I preach on that? I thought I preached on something. Else, but that’s what the Holy Spirit brought to them. Don’t ever limit what the Holy Spirit does, and then what you say is. When somebody says. How good your preaching was, or this, that and the other thing, or how great this music was, and all that it’s always to God be the glory to God be the glory.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Leber]

He’s the one who gave me the talent. He’s the one who gave me the message to God. Be the glory. It’s not my message. It’s his. So that’s the way we ought to operate.

[MCG]

Not forsaking assembling of ourselves together as a man of summaries, but exalting one another and so much the more, we definitely can’t do this so much. The more over zoom.

[Pastor Leber]

And to tell you that guy 27 years, he’s been at the same church. And he’s loving it. And you. Know the church. It’s called Lighthouse Baptist, but we. We won’t go into. But he got involved and yes, he knows that people aren’t perfect. And yes, he understands that, you know, we’re to extend grace to them. We’re to extend mercy to them. We’re not to beat them up because they think differently than we do. They help work to. Help grow them in the grace and knowledge.

[MCG]

Of the Lord.

[Pastor Leber]

Jesus Christ. And that all goes back to going. To back to the word of God. Because you know, how are we supposed to act? The only way we. Know how to act is by what? It says in psalms. In Psalm 119. I believe it’s. I think it’s verse 9. It says wherewithal. Shall a young man? Cleanse his ways by taking heed thereto according to thy.

[MCG]

I’m worried.

[Pastor Leber]

Whose word? Not my word. God’s word. So that’s what we’re supposed to do.

[MCG]

And for. The other part. Thy word have I hidden my heart that I may not sin against thee.

[Pastor Leber]

Sin against him and that’s the. Other thing, yes. Yeah, and if. You go to the proverbs where it says and believe it’s proverbs 23. It talks about it too it. Says as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

[Jay]

Let’s see.

[Pastor Leber]

So my thing. Is what you. Put in these I portals your portals. Even taste any of our functions. What you put in is what you’re going to get out it’s. Sort of like computers the computer. Is only as good as programmer who programmed it. If he puts garbage. In it, then garbage is going to come out of it if he. Puts wholesome things in it and good things in it. Then good things will come out of it. Well, it’s the. Same with us. Believers, if we put. The garbage of this world into our minds. Then guess who’s going to. Use that to clutter our minds and to draw us off into the wrong directions. Satan’s. Going to use that. But if you hide God’s word in your heart or you listen to good biblical music with, you know, godly music with good doctrinal themes to it, then the Holy Spirit can use that to guide and direct you. And so it’s very simple, but it’s hard to do. It’s very simple. To say, but it’s hard to, and that’s what people have to do. They have to let the word of God guide their lives.

[MCG]

You truly have a passive spirit. You have many times in answer the question going to mini message. So we’ll give you a chance to go into that message by sharing the gospel with us and tell us we know, as you said earlier. That church membership is not necessary for salvation. But how does one obtain salvation to become part of that? Church of Jesus Christ as you mentioned.

[Pastor Leber]

Well, I tell people it’s the call of God. God gives a general call, he says. Whosoever he says in John 316 and 17 for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever. Believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. But it also goes on and says God didn’t send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him. And then the word might. Be saved comes to that, so it’s a choice.

[MCG]

Hey man.

[Pastor Leber]

So somebody has to present the gospel. You know, if they. Don’t hear what Jesus Christ did on the cross of Calvary by becoming sin for us. And they don’t believe that they’re a Sinner. How are they going to be able to come to the? Saving knowledge of the Lord. Jesus Christ. That conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. But the thing of it is is. We have to get somebody lost first in order to give them the salvation message and the Holy Spirit is the one that can. And then what? Does he do? He seals us, he. Seals us until the day of redemption, so it’s a permit. That thing I had nothing to do with my salvation. Jesus Christ did it all. And the Holy Spirit communes with my every saved person should know that they’re saved, because the Holy Spirit communes with my spirit. And informs me that I’m saved. I’m a child of God and so and the Holy Spirit seals me until the day of redemption. Well, when’s that? When the Lord comes again to Take Me Home and I can’t wait, he said. I go to prepare a place for you. I’m gonna prepare a beautiful mansion and you’re gonna live there forever. And I said. I’m waiting for that. But the thing of it is is. I’m like Paul. The closer I grow, the more I grow in the grace and knowledge of. The Lord Jesus. Christ, the more I understand what a filthy, rotten Sinner I. So that’s the thing. I mean. Paul and Silas. When they were in that Philippian jail. Did they give a six part sermon on how to get saved? They just said we’re still here. Don’t do yourself in. Don’t kill yourself. And then he came over and he showed him the light saw that they were. He brought them into the house. And then he asked what that question. What must I do to be saved and what was their answer? It was a simple answer. One thing believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And thou shalt be saved. Believe that’s it. Nothing else. Don’t take anything. You can’t work your way to heaven. You can’t be circumcised into heaven. There’s all these things that. Everybody you got.

Speaker

To speak in.

[Pastor Leber]

Tone you don’t. You got to be baptized. No, you don’t. Now we follow believers baptism because it’s a command. Of the Lord, but. Hey, the man on the cross next to Jesus Christ. He wasn’t baptized. Where did Jesus say he was going to be? He said he’s going to be in paradise. And my thing is, is just acknowledge that you’re a Sinner, acknowledge that you’ve done things wrong. Except that Jesus Christ paid the price for your sin on the cross of Calvary. Believe that God the Father raised him from the dead, and he is now seated at the right hand of God the father, making intercessory for you. That’s what the gospel death. Burial resurrection on Lord Jesus. Christ. And believe it. And that’s a heart thing, not a head thing. It has to be the heart. If you don’t change your person’s heart, you’re not going to change the person. It’s the heart. The heart issue is. Matter of fact, I think that’s my sermon. This week, issues of. The heart. But the heart is the key. Changing a person’s heart, you know the best what I’ve seen in recidivism rate in prisons and stuff. The faith base operations that go into the prison. Fans have the least recidivism rate. Of all the. Programs that are in the prison. Because the heart has changed. You don’t change the heart. You’re not going to change the man. The man’s going to go back and do exactly what he was doing before. It has to be a heart change and it has to be a genuine heart change. There’s a lot of people that well, you know, it’s like if it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must. Be a duck. Well, if you walk like a Christian, act like a Christian, you may not be a Christian. You may not be a Christian. If your heart is not changed and I saw people who have come forward. Serving in the church for 20 years. And then they realize that they’re not really saved. They’re working their way to heaven. It’s not a free gift to them, and they get saved after serving in that church for 20 years. All of a sudden they get saved because they hear the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thank God the Holy Spirit convicts him. In their heart, and they are what they become, a new creation in Christ, a new creature in Christ, and Old Things Pass away, and behold all things become new. And that’s what it’s all about. Just giving that gospel message and allowing the Holy Spirit to do his work. I say I saved nobody. I have not saved the person in my life. I mean, other than physically I have as a lifeguard and swim. Coach I’ve saved some people. From the ocean and from the pool. But save some. Buddy, no, that’s God’s work. That’s the Holy Spirit’s work. My work is to be the mouthpiece that brings the message. So they have opportunity to come to the saving knowledge of the Lord. That’s what I do and I hope I do it well enough that I hear those words. From the Lord Jesus Christ. Well done, thy good and faithful servant.

[MCG]

From Pastor John Lieber, it was a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Pastor Leber]

Alright, thank you. It’s good to see you guys. Again, God bless.

[Jay]

Hi, this is Jay MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate removing barriers. A clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

Thank you for listening. To get ahold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers. Go to removingbarriers.net. This has been the removing Barriers podcast we attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.