Episode 132

The death of Tyre Nichols at the hands of 5 police officers was a shocking instance of police brutality that the country united in denouncing outright. The outrage seemed somewhat muted compared to the response to George Floyd’s killing, but many question whether racial tensions may have had a role to play, since all involved were black. Did these officers exhibit “internalized racism” and were thus “the black face of white supremacy” as the left contends? Or was this an instance of the sinfulness of man on full display? Join us on this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast as we explore these questions and seek a biblical answer in the face of such great evil.

[Officer CigarBro]

The policing culture can be at best, very close knit, very noble people, very willing to serve and everything like that, and at worse it can be high school with guns.

[Jay]

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

This is episode 132 of the removing various podcasts. And in this episode, we’ll be looking back at the January 7, 2023, fatal beating of Tyrone Nichols by the hand of five officers of the Scorpion Unit of the Memphis Police Department. The five officers were. Cedarius being Demetrius, Haley, Emmett Martin the third, Desmond Mills Junior, and Justin Smith. They were all fired on January 20th after administrative investigation found they had violated department policy on the use of force. They were charged with second degree murder, 2 counts of official misconduct, 2 counts of aggregated kidnapping, 1 count of official oppression and one count of aggregated assault. Karen Nichols, like all five officers, are back. And joining us in this episode is Officer CigarBro, an officer I had the privilege to see first hand, his care for the folks he served, officer is a pleasure and welcome back to the Removing Barriers Podcast.

[Officer CigarBro]

Thank you so much for having me again. It’s good to be back on here.

[Jay]

Great. Do you have the desire to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints? Answers in Genesis can help. They provide biblically sound books, CD’s, DVD’s, homeschooling, materials VS materials, online courses, digital downloads, and. Answers magazine and more. Plus tickets to the Creation Museum and Ark encounter. Go to the answers bookstore by clicking the link in the description section below so you too can be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks the reason of the hope that is in you.

[MCG]

Alright, Jay, before. We bring in officer CigarBro. Can you give us a background of the incident of Tyree Nichols?

[Jay]

Well, you pretty much covered most of it in the intro there, but some of this will be repeat. But Tyree Nichols was a 29 year old man who was brutally beaten by the five officers from the Memphis Police Department. That was on January 7th of this year, 2023. The the officers were a member of a hotspot policing unit known as Scorpion and Scorpion stands for St. Crimes operation to restore peace in our neighborhood, and the unit had about 30 officers in it. 3035 or so officers in it, it was apparently a response to the increase in crime. That itself was a response to or result. Of the defund the police movement, which was a response to the riots of the summer of Love 2020, which itself was a response to the killing of George Floyd. So killing of George Floyd. The riots of 2020 increasing crime as a result in Memphis responded with establishing a scorpion unit. I have not been able to confirm this, but apparently in the wake of the killing of Tyree Nichols, that unit has been disbanded. But I was not able to. It has been disbanded. OK, you mentioned the officers being Haley, Martin Mills, Junior and. Smith, all of whom were somewhere in the neighborhood between 24 to 3032 years old, very young folks. And all of them were hired very recently. I think 20/18/2017 was the latest or the earliest that any one of them were hired. They claimed the reason for the confrontation was a traffic stop because they claimed that Tyree Nichols was driving recklessly at the initial stop. They pulled nickels out of his car and tased and pepper sprayed him. They claimed that at that point he was non compliant. Nichols somehow broke free and ran away in the direction of his mother’s house. One would presume, because he was calling for his mom when the beating. Place, but the officers caught up with him and proceeded to gang up on him. Five on one. They all beat him up and punches, kicks, all sorts of things that were caught by not just their body cams, but also a CCTV footage that was on one of the light poles mounted on one of the light poles at the intersection where this altercation took place. So they beat him up and he finally. Just gave up fighting. I don’t think he was fighting them. What I mean was they perceived that he stopped fighting. I can’t confirm if he was passed out at that moment or if he simply stopped struggling or running for it. Life, but at that point the paramedics were called when the paramedics arrived, they did not provide medical assistance to Nichols until 16 minutes and they provided medical assistance. They took him to the hospital at the hospital. He was unconscious. I cannot say for sure if he was in a coma or if he was just unconscious, but I would imagine after a beating like that. Pretty much a coma, I would say so. Tyree Nichols mother claims that the law enforcement only told her that her son was tased and pepper spray. She did not know about the beating until she went to the hospital and saw him with a swollen head, swollen neck. Black and blue all over, obviously beaten, and his organs began failing, and he died three days later, on January 10th of 2023. All of the officers that were involved, the five officers that ganged up on him, they were fired by the Memphis Police Department a day later and there were thirteen other officers that were either let go or reprimanded or disciplined. For their actions, although the details of those actions against those 13 police officers is not immediately clear, I’m sure that will come out subsequent of this recording. So they were released the. Killing day and thirteen others were reprimanded. The three paramedics that failed to provide medical assistance were released from the Emergency Fire services as well. On the 26th of January, the five officers were arrested and charged with second degree murder, as well as the litany of other charges that you listed in your introduction MCG. All of the officers have pled not guilty. The footage the body Cam, the CCTV footage was released around that same time that they were charged with murder. I think a day before or the day after they were charged, they were fired and charged with murder, arrested and charged with murder and the release of the videos has caused widespread protests. Although the protests were muted in comparison to the riots of 2020 in the response to the killing of George Floyd.

[MCG]

All right, so let’s bring in the officer because to be honest, when I saw this for the first time, this one. More than any other really got under my skin, I kept on waiting For more information to come out to justify their actions. But let me ask you, officer. As a police officer. What was your initial thought on this thing?

[Officer CigarBro]

Really just watching it, it was just bad to begin with. I usually wait until the facts. Just because you know things can get edited and all that kind of stuff, things can get edited. Things could get, you know, misinterpreted and all that kind of stuff. And they look bad. But you know, and the totality of circumstances is actually justified, right. Again, like fighting somebody is not pretty, you know, I thought people on the street while arresting them. And it doesn’t look good at all, but based upon the totality of the circumstances like. Everything’s good. This is probably the only one where I was watching. I was like, this is pretty bad or I’ll just say like this is pretty bad. Like I don’t know what these guys are doing. I don’t know if it’s ego. I don’t know if they’re just. Like, we’re just going to get away with it. I don’t know if it was just like they had something against this guy. Honestly, I don’t really know, I just know that they just did something really terrible and they shouldn’t have done it. That’s really my initial thoughts on that.

[MCG]

Yeah, there were some unverified reports that I’ve been reading that I think is Demetrius, ex-wife or ex-girlfriend, or at least the mother of his child, worked at FedEx. With Tyree Nicholas work as well, and this was more of a personal beef because he did took some pictures of the beaten swollen tyre, nickels and text them to five different people. Now the Memphis Police Department have not released who he texts the messages to or what he said in the messages. Besides the the pictures. But I guess the question is I think you have touched on this in probably other episodes we have you on, but how did we get here in policing? I know George Floyd maybe have a big thing to do with it, but it seems. Like they have been telling us, hey, you know, black people being hunted by the police. Now here we have 5 police officers that are black, beating and killing a black man.

[Officer CigarBro]

Yeah, I always kind of look at it as well too and maybe because of like the result, apparently one of the guys have been on since like 2018, at least one of them.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

But to me, it’s like maybe the lowering of Sanders as well, too. On top of that, they just got to this new unit. This is sprung up because. We have the same unit in my department as well too, and it’s supposed to. Direct the hotspots just like the Scorpion unit. And while the name sounds pretty cool, it’s just unfortunate that they’re like they did this and then now they got to get rid of that and everything for us. It’s called a Community Action team or cat squad.

Speaker

As it’s called.

[Officer CigarBro]

But I thought about it as well too, and it’s just like I think it’s mainly just like. Lowering standards because a lot of officers are just leaving the job right now. You have a lot of, you know, experienced officers just going to other places or just quitting out, right or just retiring. And I would say for the most part, they’re. Pretty good people and. Because they’re leaving, they’re trying to attract more people with money. And because we’re shorthanded, at least in my department, we’re shorthanded. We went from $5000 sign on bonus to 10,000 now to 15,000. And so that kind of shows you how bad our retention rate is and that may actually attract people who. Go towards the. Job because they need a job, not because. Just they want to do this. Job and do it right. And unfortunately when they need people to do to handle crime and handle something like this, they’ll look at it and they’ll look at this position. Oh yeah, I’ll go in there. We’ll go ahead and do something like this. This is different. And then unfortunately, they get put on there and. If they have it like. How how would you say like they haven’t done anything? Too bad or too terrible, and that makes for lack of a better term. Then they’ll get put in there. But again, I have no idea what the Memphis Police Department does. Or what their standards are?

[MCG]

Well, it was reported that the Memphis Police Department lowered their standards. They had the 15K sign on bonus as well, and they also lower their standards so much that they were actually allowing some convicted felons to actually. Join the 4th hiring and join the 4th.

[Officer CigarBro]

And then I mean that’s just bad news right there for. Yeah, I mean, like, you need to have people who are and again, like people are human. People make mistakes, you know, you just got to be honest. But that right there is just a mistake, because now you’re, you know, the saying. Is that like, cops are like criminals or criminals on patrol, that’s like. One anti police slogan that they may say in this case, you actually if you hire a former convicted felon or an ex prisoner, then like, you’re literally making that. You’re actually putting.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

Criminals on patrol, so like it doesn’t. That’s just bad on my part. Even with misdemeanors like. Something as simple as like stealing something like I wouldn’t hire them to be a police officer as well too. Like you have to be super desperate to do that.

[MCG]

Yeah, it seemed like the defund the police movement did create that super desperation that you talk about because I think the big thing here is that when the Al Sharpton and the Jesse Jackson come out, they always want to say, hey, let us police our own community. Memphis, along with Atlanta and a few cities in the US, are among the few cities that actually have a majority black population. The population of members is like 60% black, therefore is black people policing black people? You have the chief of police being black. You have the sheriff being black. He has to be the defund the police movement. Do you think the defund the police movement is what sugar this? I’m just at loss here.

[Officer CigarBro]

I think it’s mainly like a moral character, but like defunding as well too. It’s not just like taking away the money because they quickly, like I said in previous podcasts before, as quickly as they took away the money and away all those specialized units, those things quickly came back as soon as the rise in crime happened. And then the standards, of course, are just like they’re just getting lower. And again, like, I’m not saying you have to be again, like, everyone’s human. Like, not everyone has to be like, you know, perfect and everything like that. But now they’re allowing, like more people, for example, like the fitness Sanders. This is a. Pretty physically demanding job like you have. Like long periods of sitting. And then all of a sudden you. Have to physically. Either you know, rescue someone out of the car, like I’ve done that right before the car caught on fire. It doesn’t always have to be fighting people, but you have to be able to physically be in shape to do what the job demands, and they’re just loading the Sanders on that. And then maybe this is also a culture issue as well too, is that there’s. Also, a lot of. The way that I’ve always described what other people have told me is that the policing culture can be at best. Very close knit, very noble people. Very bone to serve and everything like that. And at worse, it can be high school with guns. So everyone’s got their own cliques. People are just hot headed. They’re very egotistical, and I’ve seen both sides of that. But when I see like the high school guns kind of analogy, I get kind of they need to find another job. But defunding the movement and the lowering it, it’s just a after effect. It’s a reason why this is happening so.

[MCG]

Yeah, you know, I did some research and I found out there’s this black doctor, PhD doctor Roland Fryer. He set out a few years ago to prove that police are racially profiling black people, and he decided he’s gonna do a study and it to his surprise, he found out that police officers. We’re more willing to. Should or beat a white person more than a black person in the United States? Some examples would be Kelly Thomas of Fullerton, CA. He was severely beaten in 2011 by 6 police officers, 2016, an unarmed white teenager, was shot by the name of Dylan Noble. That was in California and also we have Tony Temper which is one of the probably the most well known one in 2016. He was mentally ill, he called the police because he wasn’t taking his meds and all this stuff. And basically I think it’s a couple of police officers put their body weight on him for about 14 minutes before he died, but a lot of folks have not heard of these guys. I never heard of. Them until I.

[Jay]

I certainly haven’t heard of him until you.

[MCG]

Hmm, I’ve heard him until I research it, but statistics show white folks suffer more from the police officers than black, but yet they were saying that this was racially motivated.

[Jay]

Just mentioned it.

[MCG]

When you hear that. And I know you’re not necessarily white, but when you hear that, what do you think?

[Officer CigarBro]

I don’t think this is like really briefly motivated. I think they’re just trying to. Say like the. Typical like it’s systemic racism and all that kind of stuff, which it’s not. Again, I’ve said it before, like if it’s like 50 years ago, 60 years ago. Yeah, like that’s correct. But now these days we’re. They’re actually like, I’ll give Memphis. They’re actually doing what the people in the city and what a lot of people are saying, like, hey, it should be represented by the people of the community. So you have the Black Methodist police chief. You also have the officers, which are mainly black as well. So to me, like when I hear like it’s racially motivated, it’s like, no, I don’t think so like this. Doesn’t make any sense. If it were like a different race, like maybe, but at the same time, you have to have like proof on that and and going by the study I did remember hearing that when you mentioned that it’s more likely like white people who are going to be like in the sense of like excessive force. Again, I think it was just mainly population, but it’s also another part of where officers mainly are like a little bit more how you might say comfortable or like if it’s someone who is white, I don’t have to like worry about the backlash even if it’s like, yeah, of course it’s justified, you’re going to go and. Do what you got to do. But a lot of police are now these days are a little bit more. They’re definitely concerned about, like if they do something and they do or just supposed to do when they do their job. What’s going to happen after the backlash, even if the department covers you, even if, like the state’s attorney, is like, hey, it’s justified and everything like that doesn’t mean that, like the media or the social media will not come after you. I’ve actually had a friend. Of mine. Who? There’s like a. 32nd, not even bad. There’s probably less than that where he was punching A juvenile and he was punching a juvenile. And I know the guy because I graduated with him. He was punching juvenile in the head, trying to get his hands behind his back. The reason why is because he was at a high school and there’s some. Reported that there’s a dude in a wheelchair and had a firearm on him, so they apprehended that guy and that juvenile came in trying to interfere with the arrest and possibly me, and not tried to take the gun. And so it got to the point to where they had to throw him onto the ground because he was acting up so much. And then that’s when the striking. Began then, of course, somebody was recording that part and actually hit the local, no? And so I checked up on him. I said, hey, are you good? You know what happened over there, you know, this is a 22nd clip. He said yeah, I’m good. The higher brass, like the colonels and everything said, I’m fine. But I was like, oh, and by the way, he’s black, you know. And he’s on a black juvenile. And yet he was getting heat for. It as well too. But it’s just one of those weird. It’s such a weird like premise. It should be either good use of force or bad use force like Tyree Nichols.

[Jay]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

I have to say just all the way around. I don’t see any justification for doing anything like that, but.

[Jay]

Well, let me ask you about that, officer. You said you don’t see any justification anywhere around now. Initially he did not comply and he ran away, although that can be disputed because they pulled him over at 8:24 and and less than a minute later they were pulling. Him out and tasing and. Even looked like he had a chance to. That can be contended, but let’s give the officers the benefit of the doubt and say he did not fully comply. He initially ran away. Does that absolve the officers of their reaction of their response? Do you think that they were justified in that particular instance because of the lack of comp?

[Officer CigarBro]

So I think that like lack of compliance like, yeah, can you bring this up as well too? I shouldn’t have, I guess generalize it put in the blanket statement, right. So initially, like if you’re doing the traffic stop, you know if he does comply then that’s fine. But initially he didn’t get out of the car. So they’re trying to pull him. And this is where it gets, like, really kind of interesting. This is where the lack of training comes in. You know, they try to tase him. I would have just pulled him out of the car, place them onto the ground, and he was actually on the ground at 1:00. But again, this is where you see the like a hands on kind of skill. This is why, like I always encourage officers to do some type of martial arts training doesn’t have to be all the time, but they need to do that. And then they pepper sprayed him and and if it’s a single person and there’s like 5 of you, the worst thing to do is pepper spray somebody because it gets. On you and that’s what ended up happening. I got pepper sprayed and then he was able to get up, you know, again, they’re not holding on to this guy correctly. He has of running away, so I’m thinking like maybe this is my mistake. I’m thinking of like I know what’s leading up to it. But at least in the initial stops like it could have been handled better, and it shows you like a lack of hand on skill and like a training and stuff like that. I’m kind of looking at the whole thing. So like, yeah, you are correct. Like the initial part like maybe you should have, but even then they need to be able to five of y’all need to be able to have the hands on skill to, like, pull this guy down and put him in custody. And that kind of stuff.

[MCG]

Yeah, while I was researching a little bit just in preparation of this, the justification I heard that was given at least internally was that they saw him the day. Before jiving recklessly because on the night of the incident, they did not see him driving recklessly, he actually was the day before.

[Officer CigarBro]

OK.

[MCG]

OK, I know you.

[Jay]

So they just saw the car recognize him. Be like, oh, yeah, that’s the. Guy, is that what it is?

[MCG]

I guess I assume, but I know laws different from state to State Citizen City, but cannot police officer actually do that? If you see me speeding the day before, then you see me the next day. But I’m not speeding. Can you pull me over for the previous?

[Officer CigarBro]

So in general, like if you wanted to like identify the guy again, like it depends on the crime. Like of course if it’s. Like this dude like carjacked somebody and now you see.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

You have like all reasons to pull this car over, but if he was just like driving recklessly and. And again, like was he, like just zipping through? I don’t know what they saw.

[MCG]

I I don’t know either.

[Officer CigarBro]

So it depends if it’s like reckless driving, like he’s just driving very fast and you just come in between lanes and then you see the same car and at least in my state, you can at least like find something else. What’s wrong with the vehicle? Pull it over and then you can ID the. Guy and it’s like, hey, where you like. You own this car. You own this car, you register it and make sure it’s the right vehicle. Because if it’s not, it’s going to throw it in court. So for me, like I’ve seen that before, where I’ve seen cars like, you know, zigzag, go the wrong way. I try to catch up to it. It’s too fast. I’m like, alright, this isn’t worth it. And then I might see it the next day. And to me it’s kind of like, OK, I’ll pull this car over, but at the same time. Do I even know it’s the same person?

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

That’s the hard part so. Even then, like when we were doing our ride along before. They’re like watching for one of the cars come out. It was like one of those white BMW’s. They were finding a reason to have probable cause to stop the vehicle so they can see what’s going on in the car and they can be able to search it.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

So it’s called a pretext.

[MCG]

OK.

[Officer CigarBro]

So it’s to pull the car over for something minor like it could be. Something as simple as a brake light to see like, hey, who is this person again? You can only identify the driver unless you have something else going on. And then you can identify the passengers, which is. Which is the case law, but you can at least identify the driver and then like all right, let’s see. Does he drive this car all the time? Then you can kind of like work from there and say that, alright, this was. The guy again? You can’t even say him like, hey, I saw you doing this. Were you driving? And if you fess up, then you fess up.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

But what these guys are doing, I don’t know. Like at most like. I don’t know what it is in Tennessee. Like, maybe you get arrested if it’s so severe. But like, where I’m at. Like, it’s probably like $400.00 ticket, right? It’s like I don’t you. I just don’t understand.

[MCG]

Yeah, what I notice. That they went in very hot.

[Jay]

Yeah, I read up somewhere that when he was initially pulled over, he was like surrounded on all sides by three different cars. And I don’t know if that’s the particular case. So they really came in.

[MCG]

Right. But they went in with guns drawn already. And I’m again. I’ve been pulled over, but I’ve never been in any situation like that. But usually the officer don’t come in, at least initially, with guns drawn on you, unless they have.

[Officer CigarBro]

Unless they have a reason to stop you. Because I’ve done that before, where we pulled a car over the master description for somebody who had a firearm and then we had our guns drawn out and then we detained them. Come to find out they’re not them. And then we explain to them. I like explaining to the people again, like these were like normal people. Like the the lady. Was like I’m just a bus driver. A bus driver, I said it’s OK, just just come, just come. Just come toward me and then we put him in handcuffs and then there’s like, hey, this isn’t actually the car. And then my Sergeant came in and say make sure you explain to them why we stopped them and say, hey, you guys match. This is the same truck. We’re sorry about this. Sorry for like ruining your day for like a better term, but this is the reason why we stopped you. And then we just let them, they. Came in hot like the. First dude, as far as I remember. Like he came in with gun. Drawn and he just kind of blow. You up like I was like, yeah, like.

[MCG]

Bombs all over, yeah.

[Officer CigarBro]

It’s like ohh. I was like, man, this this guy like a I get, I get it. People get like real heated and I’ve been in that mind frame. But the only time I’ve ever been that heated. Was like the. Dude has chased. He has probably a firearm. We’ve chased him all over the place and then he stops and then he gets out of the car. He goes back into her like, oh, what is he reaching for? That’s probably the only time. I got heated. He didn’t even. Get out of the car. So he’s already, I mean I. I just don’t want to stand either.

[Jay]

I say this all the time and I probably don’t have a popular opinion on this, but you know, we hold officers to a higher standard because they police the neighborhood and they are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be a caliber higher. And This is why I. Think the use of expletives when you’re dealing with a traffic stop or just dealing with anyone you may not think it’s nothing because they’re people who talk like that all the time and they think nothing of it. But I think in a situation like that, if you’re talking like that, you’re escalating the situation. Ultimately, that doesn’t matter because, like you all said, they came in with guns drawn, ready, expressing, that they were ready to blast them, which. Seemed to me to be quite excessive already.

[MCG]

Yeah, I kept on waiting to maybe like George Floyd had a long rap sheet so people would not necessarily be sympathetic of George Floyd, even though they may say, hey, I feel Shawn should not have it near it, never that long. You’re talking about other folks that they have clear criminal background. Terry Nichols is squeaky clean.

[Jay]

Yeah, none of that.

[MCG]

As you can imagine, you know nothing on him, so even if he the day before you was driving. Flee, whatever the case may be, it just baffled me the way they came in. They came in with the expletive and to me it’s like, you know, then they blame it on the blue.

[Jay]

Their response was unwarranted, yeah.

[MCG]

And they say, OK, well, it’s blue against black and it’s like, come on. I hate when they bring race into it. I hate when they bring all these things into it, but I agree with you, officer. It is basically human nature. There are some bad people out there. There’s some bad police officers out there and I think you will agree when I say this. I think they’re more good police officers out there than the bad ones, sure. But as they say, what 1 Apple? Spoiled a bunch.

[Officer CigarBro]

Yeah, bad applicants for the whole. So I mean like, the only way to really. Kind of prevent that is to really just. Take out the bad apples. On these kind of that simple, I mean it kind of baffled me too. I thought I was watching something. I thought it was like, did they just get into pursuit? I’m like, you know, and again just. To just my. I’m not trying to excuse me, but I’m trying to like see you. Like what are they trying to do? Cause I’ve been in that business. Before it’s like did he just rob somebody? Did he shoot somebody? Did he just do something else like?

[Jay]

Did he fit a description or?

[Officer CigarBro]

Yeah, it’s like what’s going on. It’s like, no, nothing, absolutely nothing. And I’m like, oh. This is pretty terrible and as I was watching it more and more the more I was getting angry and I’m more like we’re going to like 2 steps back from all this kind of stuff. But the silver lining is at least what I would say is that pretty much every officer, at least that I know. At least on social media, pretty much said like, yeah, these guys did terrible. They need to be. Faced with what they’re doing right? You know, and at least I guess in the how you might say, like other officers kind of holding. Their fellow colleagues, at least accountable or at least letting the public know that, like, hey, you know, we do actually hold each other accountable, at least on social media, saying a lot of people will say that there’s, like, the wall of silence or something like that. And law enforcement, that’s not necessarily true. It’s just that, like, you just don’t hear about it and you just don’t see about it. Like with my friend with my guy that I graduated with in the lateral class. You know the reason why you don’t really hear other officers talk about this situation is because we don’t want to say something that’s out of that will, like, mislead somebody else because there’s a full. And again, like things are just kind of done informally and they’re also done internally in the sense of like they will deal with the bad cops or lazy cops or something. And by the way, Memphis Police Department dealt with it like a lot of times. They’ll hear where, like, oh, like internal affairs. Like, of course, the own investigation, they’ll, like, investigate themselves. And they’ll say don’t do any wrongdoing again. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have transparency. We should have an outside like a States Attorney or District Attorney reviewing everything just so like we’re making sure that we’re across our teams and our done in our eyes, but their own internal affairs saw this was like, this is pretty terrible. So like a lot of people don’t, I guess. I guess it’s just bad in our part, but I think a lot of people think that nothing happens or nothing is being done.

[Jay]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

It just takes time and that’s the longest part.

Speaker

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

It takes time for these people to be fired, these people to be let go and eventually be charged or if they can be charged.

[Jay]

Yeah, you know what they say. A lie has already made its way around the world before the truth ever gets its shoes on. If you’re taking your time to make sure that you’re charging the right people and firing and and actually doing an investigation by that time, whatever people thought about what happened, even if it’s not true, that’s what everybody tends to believe. Let me ask you this officer. At least one of the officers claimed that Tyree Nichols was reaching for his duty belt, perhaps making a move for his gun. Did you see any indication of that when you saw the video? And I’ve noticed that often times when there’s an unwarranted response, the police officer seemed to always say, hey, he reached for my gun or he reached my duty belt. Did you see anything like that in the video and is that a common, I guess excuse that officers put forward when they know they were kind of dirty in their dealings.

[Officer CigarBro]

I didn’t see any of that. I mean, there’s enough of them. I’m not saying that like I was just watching, like, a real before I came on here. Whereas two officers trying to arrest his dude and he actually did reach for a gun and actually was able to pull. It out and shoot them. But at the same time, they didn’t see. Any indication of that, if he? Was it would have been. He got beaten so badly he’s probably just knocked out. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I’ve done, like an MMA fight before too. And like we’re, you know, I got TKO. So I got hit in the head so many times. You just get this glaze.

[Jay]

You see that? Often in MMA fights when someones been knocked out and then they’re temporarily out, right, but then when they come to. They’re like grabbing the referee and wrestling and trying to. They don’t even know what they’re doing. It’s because they’re completely out on their feet, yeah.

Speaker

They don’t even.

[Officer CigarBro]

Yeah, they don’t even know what’s happening.

[Jay]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

And on the officers parts. And this is kind of like, again, I’ve said this before in this podcast. And I’ve said. It plenty of times before because their adrenaline is so high and I’ve seen it in my partners before too. And again, it doesn’t mean that I’m perfect. I get the adrenaline as well too. But like through training and through all this kind of stuff. I’ve seen my other partners and I can see it in them as well too, to where like they’re so high up that they don’t understand what. How might I say this? They don’t necessarily like understand what’s happening, if that makes.

[Jay]

Right, they’re not processing it correctly.

[Officer CigarBro]

And I mean, like, I think that’s happening. And then another part is that there’s been the crap out this guy because they want to. On top of that, but a lot of times in other videos is just officers.

[MCG]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

They don’t get the hands on training. And so that fails. Then they go to another tool and that fails, which is usually trigger. Then that fails. Then the gun comes out and again it can be just. Qualified and a lot of times it is justified, but it’s kind of sad because you know your hands on stuff needs to be very proficient and if you. Don’t have that. Like hopefully you have partners with you. And and hopefully they’re trained as well too. But you know again it just depends on what’s going on. But that’s usually what I see a lot of the times.

[MCG]

Alright, you’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We sit down with Officer Cigar Bro and we’re talking about Tyrone Nichols, a soul for which Christ died. We’ll be right back.

[Jay]

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. Did you know that you could find us on Twitter, Gab Parlor, Facebook and Reddit, go to removingbarriers.net/contact and like and follow us on social media, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross? Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removingbarriers.net and subscribing to receive all things removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate, removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

[MCG]

All right, Jay, one of the accusation that was made about these officers is that they have internalized racism. Now, I hate that term, but what is your opinion on their phrase, internalize racism? And do you think that the officers? Or exhibiting internalized racism.

[Jay]

I think internalized racism is a crazy idea, and I don’t think the officers were exhibiting internalized racism. If we say that what those officers did was a result of internalized racism, what we’re saying is what they’re doing is always goes back to the problem of race. The black white relations in the United States, when what we saw on that. Video and everything that’s come out so far. Granted when the trial actually happens, probably more will come out, but as of right. Now what we saw on that footage was pure evil. It was wrong. It was sin on their part. And the reason I don’t like the idea of internalized racism is because in some ways, it absolves the officers of their own sinfulness, of their own lack of discipline, lack of training, lack of empathy, lack of thought. Lack of compassion, lack of everything that we deem good as a society when they all came down on Tyree Nichols had that fateful day. And so I don’t think that these officers have internalized racism. And another thing I don’t like about internalized racism. It makes it sound as though the only thing that’s wrong with black people who act out is racism or the results of racism, as if we don’t have a sin problem. Exactly the sinful nature that the scripture says that all of us have. So no, I don’t like the term internalized racism. I don’t like that because of course they’ve weaponized and monetized the idea of racism, and I don’t think that that’s what’s actually happening here. If you are the subject of. Cruel or sinful behavior. You can choose how you respond to that. You can’t choose what happens to you most of the time. You can’t choose what happens to you, but you can choose how to respond to what happens to you. And if you decide to respond to what happened to you with the same. Vitriol with the same hatred, with the same sinfulness than you are just as sinful. It’s not simply internalized racism, it’s your own sin. So no, I don’t like that term and I don’t think that’s what happened in this particular case with these officers. I think what they did was evil. I think they have a. Sin, nature and it was in full this. Play that night when they stopped Tyree Nichols.

[MCG]

Let me ask you, officer, because of course, Jenni, are black, at least colloquially. That’s what they will say. I didn’t know you were white mixed with Filipino. Do you encounter these kind of terms? Internalized racism in yours?

[Officer CigarBro]

No, I never really believe that. It’s like it just doesn’t make sense. Like Jays just like explained it correctly. What it is very. Funny is because I’m half Filipino, half white like my European ancestors actually settled here. They’re like the first colonialists to actually come here. They’re like French, Canadian and Dutch, so and again, we all know people are people. They’ve done bad things and everything like that. So on one hand, people will like. Thing that you’ve inherited from oppressors or something like that, right? But I’m also half Filipino, which the Spanish have like conquered. That they colonized that place for, like almost 300 years, or maybe more of that. And it hasn’t been until like after. World War Two, where they’re actually independent. So like, am I really like oppressed or I’m really the oppressor? This doesn’t make any sense. So, like, just coming from the lenience and everything, and because I take more of the Filipino. But people will not assume that. But they won’t assume that. I just say I’m Filipino just because I was actually born there. You know, my mom Filipino was mainly raised by her, but for example, my stepfather, who’s Italian and his family moved here. I think in 1930s. So just around that area. But yet they will blame him for like the Native Americans and the slavery stuff, when his family lineage really only started, like maybe not less than 100 years ago. And yet they’ll ignore me just because I looked.

[Jay]

Right.

[Officer CigarBro]

Ironically, they’re judging based upon the periods and skin color. So that’s a very ironic thing. So whenever you hear this kind of stuff, it kind of makes me. Friends and I just like ignore it so.

[MCG]

Yeah, I think the point is mute because. If it’s internalized that mean you can’t see it, you don’t know it’s there unless someone do something, and then all of a sudden it must be because of internalize this system because you don’t have any other explanation for it. So yeah, I hate the term. It’s at best. Dumb or at worse, I don’t have explanation for the bad actions I’m seeing from these officers, so I’m going to say it must be internalized racism. And as I just say, the Bible make it clear we have a sense of. Humans are going to do bad things no matter what it is. Software engineer like me, they’re a police. Officer like you. Or they’re still home, mom, like Jay humans do bad things and there’s some. Stay at home Moms who starve their kids and decided that they’re gonna lock them in rooms just like that was in the news recently. And there’s some software engineers who write code that. If they ever get released. The database is deleted or whatever the case may be, and there’s some officers that beat the people. Why is that so hard to wrap our brain around without bringing race into the issue?

[Jay]

That’s my thing. I think it’s because they’re monetizing it, right? I was watching an interview of Tyree Nichols parents, and they’ve hired Benjamin Crump as their attorney. And I hate to say this. And even if there was a legitimate concern, the moment you say the name Benjamin Crump, I’ve already got my hackles up. I’m already like, oh, this is going to be a race thing, and it’s probably all for not, but the way that he was describing what? It’s almost as though he was trying to find, like, stretching to find some kind of way to pin it on white people, as though black people can’t possibly can’t possibly do this sort of thing. And if they do, it’s internalized racism, which is obviously, we’ve all said it’s completely ridiculous. But at any rate, so our initial response seems to all be the same and. MCG, you said several times that you keep waiting for information to come out that will change what you feel about it. So what was your initial response to it and what is your response to it now?

[MCG]

Well, yeah, as I said, I kept on waiting, believing something else is going to come out because I could not believe that police officers because I have another faith in police officers. I think police officers is a great profession and I think, yeah, for most part they do a good job. So I couldn’t imagine that they would just beat him up because hey, I just want to beat him up and I know I just said. Of course we have a sinful nature, so it’s possible. I just don’t expect it. But you know, I watch the full videos that were released by the Memphis Police Department. I know you decided not to watch it because it was too, so brutal.

[Jay]

I couldn’t handle it yet.

[MCG]

But in Video 2 right and 9 minutes and 16 seconds. For the video, the medics arrive. They never offer any aid until minute 25 and two seconds, and he was put on a stretcher at minute 28 and 30 seconds. The ambulance actually came into view at minute 30 and 30 seconds, so 2 minutes after they put them in a stretcher. They put him in the ambulance. They came there at 9:00. 10 minutes, 16 seconds in and it in the A8 until 25 minutes 2 seconds in so dear the medics I know they came out and said the police officers were preventing them and stuff like that. I think the medics failing as well and I look at that as like Man Video 4 right 9 minutes and 54 seconds in the minutes. Drive and there was an ambulance there as well. Dominics was asking, hey, what was going on? How are you doing all that stuff? Try to talk to him.

[Jay]

To who? Tyree Nichols. Or one of the officers, OK.

[MCG]

Right. Some of them were trying to talk to him. But I watched that video and I saw the police officers, two police officers, whole entire Nichols, one on both sides and punching him, punching him. And look, I see him went out, like, twice. Like when I say went out like. Cold if they weren’t holding him, he would have been on the floor. You can tell I know you love MMA. I don’t really watch those things, but you can tell when someone is. Knocked out? Sure. Right. And I can see Tywin Nichols went out at least twice when they were punching him. Not only that, they punching him, they took the baton and they beat him with that tank.

[Jay]

And they kicked him in the chest as well.

[MCG]

And I saw him went out during that beating as well. Not only that, when they were holding him on the floor, I saw a police officer kicked him in his face, at least. Twice, and he went out again during that time. And I’m like, there’s nothing this man could have done. There’s nothing in my mind that can justify it, that look again. I’m no police officer, but I can’t imagine that this man could have done anything that justified that.

[Jay]

To deserve a beating like that.

[MCG]

Except maybe if you’ve raped your wife or your daughter or something. Have to be so graphic. But what could this man have done to deserve such a beating? And not only that, they did it knowing that they by the cameras were. On and from what I understand that the police officers in Memphis know where their city surveillance cameras are. They were right under a city surveillance camera, and they beat this man with no regard. Firstly, he tells me that this is not the first time they did it. There’s no way.

[Jay]

Ohh, good point. Good point.

[MCG]

There’s no way no one can convince me this was the first time they did it, and I’ve seen videos where people come out and say, hey, this officer would have roughed me. Before look the first time you do stuff, you normally are timid and whatever case may be. I saw none of that. These people were just going for the pound of flesh. I saw officers. One of them would step back. To catch his breath. If I was at the playing. One of them stepped back to catch his breath and the other one went in and started beating him, and when that one is finished and he’s tired. The other one goes in and the two of them. Just cool in this manner.

[Jay]

They were caught on camera bragging about it as well, so.

[MCG]

Not only bragging about it, but you asked about the cigar brought about his reaction and whether not the fact that he didn’t comply initially. If you watch the videos while they were rehashing the story, what happened and talking about how strong he was and how the fact that he went for his gun and how that he must be on drugs and all that stuff, in my opinion, they were just trying to justify what they. Just don’t look. This was a beating. This was worse than George Floyd 10 times worse than George Floyd because I can argue that George Floyd system was full of fentanyl and some other drugs and all this stuff and maybe the knee and the neck didn’t kill him. But was the jugs in the system? Was his bad heart and. The jugs in the system. I can argue that. But there’s no argument for this. This was a beat 10 look. They kicked him, punch him, beat him, pepper sprayed him. Refuse the paramedics to offer aid to him and took pictures of it and send it off to their friend. Man, I’m telling you, I’m glad I’m not the jury or the judge or anything in this case because I will put these men on to jail, but anyway.

[Jay]

What about you, officer? In light of all of this, what did you think about it? Initially, you mentioned that you felt the same way. How do you feel about it now?

[Officer CigarBro]

I’m just glad they’re getting charged, you know? Again, everyone’s innocent until proven guilty and the wheels of justice move slowly and we have to go for the same. Process OK, I know. Buddy include myself wants to just throw this guy just, you know, slam the door and just throw the key away and forget. About these people. But they have to get tried through. So and again, like I say that and I don’t mean that in like you’re trying to excuse your behavior was like. That’s like like I’ve done that. With like people who? Like, actually shot people. And like, well, he’s gotta go through. Well, explaining rights and sitting with these officers, I mean, it’s as clear as day that they’re going to be guilty and I don’t know why. I don’t know why you’re pleading not guilty. I’m like, dude, like I I don’t know why you may as well just. Own up to it. At this point I don’t know, man, this is bad so.

[MCG]

Do you think there’s any possibility in the ram of possibilities that they could be justified in their actions that the jury of their peers, 12 reasonable people in the US? Well, that’s kind of stretch, but do you think that they could be ever found to be innocent or not guilty in anything, any possibility? Anything he can pull out of the hat?

[Officer CigarBro]

Man, if they do like, I’m gonna blame people rioting. I’d be like at that point they did. I’m like, this is fairly clear as day. I really don’t think so. So I mean, hopefully the prosecutors just do their jobs correctly and then they get a. The judge has to be on bias as much. As possible but. Hopefully the prosecutor can, like, do the best that they can. And picking the right people and everything so.

[MCG]

Yeah, I agree with officer man. I can’t think of any. None, especially in this political climate, especially with the demonizing of the police that their actions can be justified. I’m telling you, I’m gonna show my age here, but they could get Ben Matlock or Perry Mason and they will still lose this case. There’s no way that what these guys did were right to me. Because the important thing here is not just the body cameras, because you can see evidence of them trying to hide the body camera. Try to obscure what we’re seeing on the body Cam video, but when you look at the surveillance camera that was above them. On the streetlight that the deer toast. And if there are times that we could suspend, and I know this is a very dangerous statement. But if there were times that we could just suspend their innocent until found guilty or stuff like that, this is one of the case men. This was absolutely inhumane until beaten. That I can’t find any justification for. So no, I don’t think there’s any way they could be fined justified, or even even remotely. Get some kind of lesser deal or something and I hope they don’t accept any plea deal neither. No, they need to throw the book at them. That’s my opinion. I think when police officers break the law in this extent, they need to should look at them just like I think that when parents abuse kids, they need to throw the book at them. So I’m just picking up police officers, but I’m just simply saying in this situation, man, I wouldn’t have one objection if they should look at them. Was I’m a wretched Sinner, just like they are. But wow, man, that was shocking. Alright, let’s wrap it up with this how can we get beyond police brutality and give us a broader picture on this situation?

[Jay]

There are two things I’d like to point out about the death and the killing of Tyree Nichols as it relates to the gospel. OK, so you have the unjust and unfair. There’s just no. Premise, under which we can say that this happening was OK, this incident was OK. So we have that particular site, but then we also have the actual actions of the police officers. And there are two things that we can pull from that. Well, there’s a ton of things we can pull from that. But there’s only two things I’d like to pull. From that, let’s look at the actions of the officers, Pure Evil, sinful. As we mentioned before, and I’d like to just point out to and remind us as well as the listeners that if under any circumstance you don’t think that you have a sin nature. Or somehow that you are good enough or not that bad, or the scales might tip in your favor because you do more good than bad. I want to use this opportunity to implore you to remember what the scriptures say. The scriptures say that there is none. The Bible says that our sins are like the filthy rag before the Lord. Like a filthy bloody rag before the Lord, even if your sin was simply A-fib compared to, say, the great conspiracies and lies that have happened in history and in our world today, that sin is still punishable by death and eternal damnation before the throne. Of a holy God, and I want to encourage the listener and warn the listener and us as well. We could look at these five officers, these terrible men who did this terrible senseless. Thing and compare ourselves to them and say, oh, you know, I would never do something like that. I’m not that bad compared to those guys. But your sin, not just the sin that you commit the sin that you think no one can see is ever before you and is ever before the Lord. He sees all of those things and you are just as guilty before him. You may not be. Out in the streets. Beating people into a senseless pulp and then ultimately killing them. But you have done things before. The Lord that you will have to answer for. And how can you answer to a holy God who has given his law, who has given? His word, who has made his standard clear? What can you possibly say before holy and righteous? God, I implore the listener, and I implore us to think about that as well. So when we look at those officers, yes, we can point the finger at them and say, man, we should put them under the jail, but we should also remember that we belong under the jail too. Under God’s judgment, we belong. Under the jail as well so. Let’s shift our focus as well to the death of Tyree Nichols and you know, if there’s any way. That these men are absolved or found not guilty, as officer Scarborough said. We wouldn’t even blame the people that would go out to Riot as a result. But I want to also encourage the listener and remind everyone that the ultimate judge is Almighty God. The death of Tyree Nichols, we say. Most likely we’re going to find earthly justice here for his death. I believe that those officers will be charged and found guilty and punished and sentenced and. In jail, but they will also have to stand before a holy God. And there are many injustices, many things that we don’t understand. Many hurts and burdens and terrible things that have happened that we just have to stop and wonder why, God, why did this happen? How did this happen? Loving God, why is it that these terrible things happen? Let the listener remember that there isn’t a Sparrow. That falls to the ground that God is not aware of. He knows the very number of the hairs on our head. Head he is there, down at the atomic level of every single substance of every single person, of every single thing of every single situation in this universe. He is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. There is nothing that gets past our God and we may feel like this is an injustice and that there is no God. Because how could these terrible things happen? But I want to encourage the listener and warn everyone that there is a God. There will be justice and he will not allow these things to go unpunished. The question is when we consider the righteous judgment of God and the fact that he is all of these things that I have described. How do we stand before him? How do we stand before him? Can we stand before a holy God? Tyree Nichols on January 7th went to meet his maker in a situation that he could not have controlled. What happened to him, and it’s very, very, very, very unjust that he died. At that particular time from our perspective, but he has stood before the maker and there will come a point where each of us have to stand before Almighty God and give an answer for ourselves. What can you say? What will you say before God? Do you think that because you are a good person or you’re a doctor, you’re a nurse, you’re an officer, you’re a good citizen. You’re a this that or the other fill in the blank. Do you think that’s a reason for God to forgive you of your sin and allow you to into his heaven? No, the Bible makes it clear that there is only one thing that will allow a person. To be made right before God. It’s the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ came into the world some 2000 years ago for the sole purpose of shedding his blood to die for the sins of the world. So that whosoever believeth him him should not perish, but have everlasting life. If that was true of Tyree Nichols, if he turned from his sin and put his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, he’s with the Lord as we speak. He’s with the Lord right now. But those who have rejected or refused his good gift of grace, his benevolent gift of grace. They will have to spend an eternity in hell. Their sins were paid for and they snubbed and they walked all over pearls. The Bible talked about do not throw your pearls before swine. They treat it as nothing the precious blood of Jesus Christ that was shed for their sin. Dear listener, don’t let that be you. The Lord Jesus Christ died to pay for your sin and for the sins. Of the whole world. World turn from your sin and put your faith and trust in God. If we’re ever going to get past police brutality, if you’re ever gonna get past the injustices, the racism, the assuming that everyone is guilty, and the tension that we feel in our country right now, that’s never going to. If we all don’t humble ourselves before Almighty God realize that we are just as guilty as everyone else around us, humble ourselves before the Lord turn from. Our sin believe on his son, live for him and treat others accordingly. Then we will see peace in our neighborhoods, in our cities, in our states, in our country, and in our world. Turn to the Savior today.

[MCG]

Officer Saguaro is always a pleasure to have you on our podcast. Thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

[Officer CigarBro]

Thank you so much for having me again. Been a pleasure.

[MCG]

Right. Thank you for listening. To get ahold of us to support this podcast or to learn more about removing barriers, go to removing barriers. Net, this has been the Removing Barriers podcast we attempted to remove barriers so that we all can have a clear view of the cross.