Episode 122

If we are honest, we admit that we wonder about the big questions of life: Who am I? How did we get here? What is death? What happens after death? Social media is replete with stories of near death experiences, encounters with the dead, and other paranormal or supernatural incidents, but are they real? Are they true? What exactly happens to a person when they die? In this episode of the Removing Barriers podcast, Missionary Marco joins us as we explore these questions and examine what the Bible says about them.

At about 16 minutes in the recording, Missionary Marco mentioned the case of a pastor who was praying over what to do with his unresponsive mother. He would like to correct the record with the information below:

In 1988, the mother of Pastor Terry Coomer (Hope Baptist Church, North Little Rock, Arkansas) suffered a heart attack and was without oxygen to her brain for more than five minutes. She went into a coma and throughout that night had seizures every few minutes. Several brain specialists told the family that she would never regain consciousness and would be a “vegetable” for the rest of her life. Her major organs had shut down, and she was on a breathing ventilator. For months she remained in that condition, with her husband stopping by the hospital each day to talk to her, when she suddenly woke up! Pastor Coomer testifies: “I was called to the hospital and she talked to me. She told me how much she loved me and how she was going to miss seeing her grandchildren grow up. She also talked about knowing that she was going to die and about the home that she had in heaven. She asked why this had happened to her. I told her I did not know, but I knew God loved her and had a place prepared for her. We prayed together, and I hugged her and told her how much I loved her. Ten days later, she went into the presence of her Lord. I asked the neurologist how they could make such a mistake. He told me the brain is different than any other organ, meaning that it is more difficult to predict what will happen to the brain than with other organs. I can testify to that. I am glad we were not persuaded to pull the plug even though I was told over and over, ‘She has no quality of life.’ I am thankful we left the decision of her life in the hands of the Lord rather than those who thought it was okay to kill.”

Read more: https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/do_we_have_right_to_die.html

When he was near death. He pled. Oh, Christ, oh Lord Jesus. And then he would cry out. I must die. Abandon of God and men.

Oh wow.

And then the lady who looked after him said, for all the wealth of Europe, she would never see another infidel die. It was a scene of horror that lies beyond all exaggeration.

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay, and I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross.

This is episode 122 of the removing various podcast. And in this episode. We will be sitting down with missionary Marco to discuss death. Is there anything beyond? Missionary Marco, this is a heavy topic. Thank you for joining us and welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast.

Thank you so much. So good to see you. So good to see you both today. Yeah, not necessarily the maybe the most popular topic, but an important one.

Yep, definitely. Alright, let’s jump right into it. Tell us, how would you define that? What is that? I think everybody knows when something is dead. But how would we define that?

Yeah, actually I was looking into this and there’s actually not a lot of literature out there on what death is like from a Christian perspective or otherwise. I was actually kind of surprised. I mean, we as Christians, we often talk about the afterlife and the eternity and getting right with God. And obviously all those things are related to death. As far as death itself, I don’t know if there’s a book. I mean, there’s a few books written on them, but they’re certainly not very popular. I’ve got just from a couple of books, David Clouds way of life. Encyclopedia has a couple of different definitions of death, one being a spiritual death and the other one being a physical death. He describes both of them as a separation. But to different, different meanings there the spiritual death being a separation from God. Of sin and of physical death, separation of the spirit from the body, and then finally he has the eternal death, or the second death, which is the final eternal separation of the unsaved from God and life.

So you will say that there’s a big difference between being physically dead and spiritually dead. Let’s kind of zoom into that for a little bit because I think a lot of folks may understand what physical death is. We have all been to funerals, we all have heard people dying. It’s an everyday occurrence for us. It’s part of life, so to speak. But when you say spiritually dead. Would you say that the spirit is like a corpse? Is it dead in the sense that we know that a dead body cannot move? A dead body cannot do anything for itself. Is that what we mean by spiritual death? That the spirit itself is now motionless can’t do anything.

Yeah, that’s a very good question. If we look at. What the Bible says. Well, death specifically about spiritual death. We turn to Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse one. You are quick. And who are dead in trespasses and sins so. Paul is saying they’re to Christians to a church that you all were dead, that he’s talking spiritually dead. So what that looks like spiritually, I don’t know that we could really conceive all that. That means I think that’s one reason. Oftentimes, the Bible and Christianities talk about in terms of faith because there are some things we have to take for granted just. Because God says. I firmly believe there’s some things we just simply in these enfeebled bodies can understand, but apparently all human beings were at least one point spiritually dead. Those who were. Missions have gone beyond that, apparently. According to what Paul writes there, cause he’s using the past tense and saying were. But I believe all were dead at some point. The first people who have come to spiritual death would have been Adam and Eve in the beginning, and then of course, us being their progeny, their descendants, we all inherit that death, that spiritual.

Yeah, I want to do with them. I think this question Mission America is because another topic is not necessarily about Calvinism, but spiritual death and physical death is often compared. Yeah, to be the same thing when it comes to not the same thing. But compared to with the Calvinists. So the Calvinist will say that at least some of them will say that. The spirit is dead and that dead spirit cannot believe that dead spirit cannot make a decision. That dead spirit really can’t do anything because and they compare that to your body when you are physically dead, then you can’t do anything. So if we take your definition and we say, OK, that is. A journey and if their physical death is a separation of the spirit from the body or the soul from the body. If you want to put it that way and then spiritual death is separation from God because of sin. Just recently I was reading something from David Claude I just mentioned before. He says the Bible clearly teaches this believe. And thou shall live very well. Listen to you. He that believeth. On me had everlasting life, John 647, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. And then what he referred to as the extreme Calvinist, he said the extreme Caveness says live, and thou shall believe. Please notice that John 112 does not say this, but as many as have been regenerated to them. If he powered to believe in his name even to those, yeah, have become the children of God. Notice also that John. 2031 says believing he might have life, it does not say having life. He might believe. Yeah, in his helpless and hopeless condition, the Sinner is to. Spoke to the Lord Jesus Christ and live John 314 to 16. We sing to him, look and live. The extreme covenants will change the words to say, live and look, and I think that’s very important because if this spirit is a corpse and it cannot do anything, then David Cloud has a point here because the Bible says look and live. So if the spirit is. Bad and the cops can’t do anything. The spirit can’t look and live. I personally believe that. When you get saved, that’s when you’re quick. I think the cabinets will teach that you’re quicker than you can believe and be safe.

Yeah, I think you’re looking at it correctly.

Spiritual death and physical death are two different things we’re establishing, right, but that certainly depends on who you talk to. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they say something completely different. They say that the soul is not like. What we would think of as the spiritual component of a person, they say the soul is the person in their entirety. And so when someone dies, it’s the complete cessation of the person altogether. They’re, like, annihilated. They cease to exist. And so there’s like a lot of questions, which one is right? Of course we know that’s what the Bible says is true. And certainly not what the Jehovah’s Witnesses say. So we have that part, but we also have the question of what about people who are. For lack of a better expression, 1 foot and 1 foot out like the medical terms like brain death. And what’s your take on those to the medical side where say someone is comatose? Or perhaps there’s brain death, or maybe in a vegetative state, I should say as well. What are your thoughts on that missionary, Marco?

You know, it’s interesting, I guess two things. First off, I think that perspective is wrong. The one of annihilation you know. Adventist believe something similar. I guess they came from similar roots, but the soul is something eternal. It’s not something that goes to sleep, it’s not something that gets destroyed. Jesus himself. He was with the disciples and Moses and. I just. Came back and they were there, and the disciples recognized them. So even then they weren’t in some sleep induced state. They were alive somehow. From what I understand, in the Scriptures they haven’t received their glorified bodies yet. We see that happens eventually. So in some way, though, they’re still alive. You know the soul is an eternal thing. If I just go to the scriptures here, I was just looking actually where it was Moses and Elijah. Matthew 17, after six days, Jesus takes Peter and James John. ‘s brother bringing them. Into an Mountain High part like there you have. When Jesus was with them and those people were there. So the soul continues. And I think it’s interesting, cause medically I don’t know, like I’ve known some people who’ve had to make that decision where their mother was vegetative state. And it’s a hard thing where somebody actually has to pull that plug. I know another person, and he had had a heart attack. His heart stopped, and all the paramedics. Were there, as far as they’re concerned, this guy was dead, but they were. Doing the CPR on him anyway, and this guy vividly remembers he could hear everything and they broke his rib, which I guess is a normal thing that happens. When they try and bring back someone from the dead and he couldn’t see anything, but he could hear everybody visibly, it was actually a family reunion. And so his whole family’s there. He has his heart. Attack the paramedics come and he hears all this going on and he hears them prepping the defibrillator. But he doesn’t know what it is. I mean, he just doesn’t clue in. And then they shot him and he hated it. He felt the whole thing. He knew what was happening, was horrible. And then he heard them do it. Second time and as much as he wanted to, he wanted to scream no cause. His ribs are broken. He’s already felt the one shock. He doesn’t want another one, but he couldn’t cause he, as far as the world was concerned, he was dead. And so I don’t know that medically. There’s a thin line. I guess that’s one thing sometimes. Will argue where does our mind begin and where does our brain end? I mean, there’s something about us that’s eternal. That’s something about it. That’s immaterial that we can’t measure, quantify. And it would be a hard situation to determine when death exactly is, because I mean, there are some situations where people are considered dead. And they haven’t been.

Yeah, absolutely. Now that you’re speaking about that, I’m thinking of news articles where people were not just clinically dead, but actually dead. There was no heartbeat, no circulation, no breathing, no. Nothing for several hours and they were declared dead and then they just wake up in the morgue several hours later. So yeah, certainly as finite people, we probably need to tread lightly on this death and beyond thing. We don’t know quite as much as we think we know, and perhaps we need to defer to scripture.

Well, that’s absolutely right. I think as much as we can say, there is a Gray area most of the time, life and death is pretty clear. I mean, people will sometimes this is a liberal tactic. Well, they’ll take the Gray area and they’ll try to apply it to everything, whether it’s abortion or euthanasia.

Right. Make it the rule.

So I think any good Christian will realize there are. Questions like you have a topic pregnancies. I don’t think that would be right to call that an abortion that’s saving a life. Or other situations, you know where someone has to make that decision because they have a family member and as far as they can tell, it’s absolutely not possible for them to come back. They love them, they do everything they can do, but there are places and instances where somebody has to make that hard decision and it shouldn’t. Taken lightly. But I think there’s clear cases where we know what life is and. God is for life. He came to give. Life so a Christian should always choose life. That doesn’t mean there aren’t grey areas, but most of the situations that you and I will ever deal with are not great.

Would you go into that a little bit more? Marco, you’ve touched on the issue of euthanasia. Abortion, those kinds of things. And it sounds like you’re saying there are times when it’s biblical in the sense that we should always be on the side of life. We should never be actively trying to end someone’s life or kill someone or anything like. That could you elucidate that a little bit? Further so that we can understand the topics of euthanasia and abortion, mercy killing all that. Sort of thing from a biblical perspective.

Sure, the Christians should always choose life. I think that’s pretty clear. God came to give us life. Life is a gift from God, so it’s not something man can take. It’s something up to God and so we have, you know, one situation. Sometimes people bring up is etopic pregnancy. As the baby grows, if you wanna call it a fetus inside the fallopian tube, it will cause internal bleeding and the woman will die. And so what’s generally done there is they operate, they take out the fetus or the baby and they try and save the life and they show. Cause neither the child nor the mother are viable in that situation, so that’s the best thing you can do is save life there. If you could save both you. Would, but in that. Case the situation where almost I don’t know that you ever can save the child’s life in that situation. That doesn’t happen. Well, you know, I know people who it’s happened to, but you can’t take that and then apply it to. Say well now, then you can abort every child in any case, because that’s technically not not an abortion.

Right.

You’re not ending a life, you’re. Saving a life, so I mean. That doesn’t mean there aren’t hard, sad situations that people need to deal with. And I think as Christians, we need to be compassionate in regards to that. Sure, when Christians are anti abortion, it’s not because they hate people. I learned not too long ago that Christians adopt many, many times more children than non Christians do, and so I think that just shows that. Christians in general, they want to help. They want to see life. They want to see the unfortunate helped in this case, children. And so I think Christians need to be as much as we need to be people who. Take a stand. We need to back up that stand with compassion. And so, you know, I guess in youth in Asia, sometimes youth. There’s, I mean, there’s children now. There’s high school kids, there’s young people who want to be euthanized. I mean, that’s ridiculous. You got your whole life ahead of you. You know, I think any pastor deals with people who are close to death, who are dealing with tragedy, who are dealing with what seems like impossible health situations. But the thing that happens is oftentimes someone opens the door. Like I said, whether it’s abortion or anything else. By saying, well, what about people who are suffering, and then they just try to apply to anyone who’s having any issues that, you know, the Bible has the answers. I believe the Bible has the answers to encourage folks to help folks. Compassion for. Both. So we can’t use. Compassion is an excuse to say, well, now we can kill everyone. I think countries have gone down that road have ended badly. Holland is one such country. I think it’s 10%. If I can remember the statistics correctly, 10% of people I have may have these figures wrong. I I should look them up again, but it’s an astounding percentage. It’s definitely in the double digits of people who are. Or euthanized without their consent. Wow. And so oftentimes it’s like the saying goes, the camel gets his nose in the tent and someone will say, well, for compassion’s sake, we should allow euthanasia for compassion sake. We should allow abortion for compassion sake, and then it just opens the door. It’s sort of like people who argue in favor of abortion. Which is the taking of a life is obviously the taking of a baby in the worst situations, say incest or rape. Well, that’s 1% of all case. And so no liberal would say that the 99% of the rest of the times it shouldn’t be done. They just use that 1% as an excuse to allow the rest and so we shouldn’t think that way. We should think through things and apply something consistently. We shouldn’t use the exception to define the rule.

Yeah, definitely. I want to go back to being medically dead just a little bit here because. Both you and Jay mentioned different scenarios of people being dead or people being declared dead and they waking up or realize knowing what’s going on. So the question is, when should we pull the plug? Well, is this a liberty issue or does the Bible have strong opposition against it? For instance, if the doctor come and say hey? Your spouse is brain dead, and it’s best for us to take him or her off of their. Support because there’s no way they’re going to live. Yeah, I’ve known Christians who have pulled the plug. I’ve known Christians who say they have never pulled the plug. Do we have clear guidance of Scripture on that or is this just a liberty issue when it comes to that? Because, at least for me, one thing I think about is that if it wasn’t for the advancement of science, yeah, there wouldn’t be any plug to pull.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. You know, and I mean, science can only do so much. But I was thinking earlier about that case. I think you pointed out to me that Terry Shivel it seemed that she was alive when her husband wanted the plug pulled on her and her family wanted her alive. And yet he did not. And so there are situations where it seems that there’s life, I guess. We would hope that anybody, any family, I mean, that’s the other thing. Some people have no family to care for them. You know, I think of a fellow in my church who I love dearly, who really doesn’t have anybody. You know, we bring him to church, but the people in his family wouldn’t necessarily advocate for him. He’s an older man. If anything happened to him and so praise the Lord when there’s some caring family. We would hope the family would feel the same way. That God does. About life. Again, not to always go to the exception rule, but I know a good Baptist preacher who had to make that hard decision with his. And there was no, I mean, I don’t remember how many weeks he wrote a book about it, and I don’t know how many weeks or months this went on. I think he was the oldest oldest child. So he, you know, being an adult himself, he was the one who ultimately had to make that decision. And it wasn’t an easy one. And so, as much as I know, this man loves the Lord, loves his mom, and would have done anything to keep her. He didn’t think that there was any. There was any point that she was being kept alive, so I sympathize for people like that. I haven’t been through it. I know that God chooses life and sort of like we’ve been talking about. What does that look like? Give me a jar of that. Where is that line you know and I know that, like you said, science can do all these things. I live in a third world country, and so we don’t have necessarily all the amenities they have elsewhere. But somebody can sometimes be kept artificially alive, and they do that even to harvest organs, persons clinically dead. But they keep the heart pumping. They keep all those things going to be able to utilize those organs, you know, that’s good. They can get the most out of what’s left of that shell. Parting to say that, but. It’s a hard thing and I know that a person should pray about it if they’re Christian, they should get counsel from their pastor, and I don’t envy anyone who would be in that harsh and to love someone dearly, to want to have them around and just be put in that place to not know what to do and just have to beg God to give them wisdom.

Right.

Yeah, I hearing that one, just a personal story because I guess it doesn’t have to do directly with. That, but you talking about harvesting organs. I’m very suspicious about that, to be honest. Because, sure, you know, they’re the benefit here to declare the person dead so you can get the organs. Yeah, true. So, for instance, the personal story is when my wife and I got married, she moved to the state that we live now. Of course, she had to update her. Drivers license and all those things. And one thing she did when she went to get her driver’s license, she declared herself as an organ donor. And I was adamant about take that off because for me. I’m thinking, OK, you’re getting an accident. You’re being rushed to the hospital, and the parameter is looking at your license. Ohh, organ donor? Well, maybe we should not do as much as we could to save her so we can donate the organs. I just read a story where someone wake up, you know, just before they were going to have his organs and, you know, to me. I’m like, I’m kind of person. And I want to make sure that this is final before you start cutting my loved ones open to get their organs. And again, praise God for those who are willing to give up their organs and do that for others. But I can’t see myself doing that because I’m not 100% sure that my loved one is gone before you are cutting them open and taking their organs.

Of course.

So I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m just. For me, it’s just like, whoa, you know, I don’t know if I’ll be happy if any of my loved ones, but if my wife or my kids or any extended. Family declared themselves as organ donors because this world is corrupt and I don’t know if they’re going to say, hey, we can’t do anything else. Ohh type O blood type or type whatever blood type. He’s a perfect match for such and such and such. Let’s get these kidneys on these hearts. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe I’m just a conspiracy theorist or something, but. It will be difficult for me to even declare myself or anybody else love as organ donors, so.

Yeah, it’d have to be done. Honestly, I don’t doubt there’s situations like. Father-in-law, she just passed away last month. But he was in the hospital for several weeks before he passed on, and so him and his family both wanted his organs donated. He died with a certain disease, so it was beneficial for the doctors to have particularly his brain, because there’s very little known about what. What’s really going on in people with this disease and so in that case, there was a pretty, pretty clear cut. It was being done legitimately and it wasn’t something sudden, but yeah, it certainly medical staff are just like anybody else, want to make sure things are being done on the up and up.

Ok Missionary Marco, we’ve talked about death, let’s change gears. A little bit. And why do people die? We can talk about that all day long. But why do we die? As human beings, we don’t just keep on living.

Yeah, I guess we get the answer to that. Just in the first few verses of the Bible. I mean, God’s merciful in giving us life. I know sometimes people have trouble understanding, you know exactly that. You know why death. They’re even going beyond that. What about hell? What about the afterlife? And some people have the idea that, well, you know, God will deal with anyone who’s not a Christian. Anybody who goes to hell is because they haven’t accepted Jesus. But that’s not really right because if you take a step before that, the reason anybody would go to hell. It was because of sin and so it’s not about. Although Christ is central to the Gospel, Christ is central to the Bible. Christ is central to our destiny. The bigger issue that condemns us is not whether or not we have crisis prior to that, that we’re sinful. And so the Bible says the wages of sin is death. I remember when I was young my. Dad pointed out there was a TV show that dad. Just to watch sometimes, and he pointed out one of the actors on there and he said that guy is a drinker, he’s a drunk and that’s why he looks much older than he is. And you know, I’m a kid. I don’t know anything, but that stuck with me as a young person. And now, as I look at people, sometimes I see people who really aren’t that old. But they sure look old and to me that’s just a little bit of a glimpse of death. We do know that not everybody who’s sick and not everybody who’s dealing with disease, it’s directly because of the sin they’ve committed, but certainly we see. The wages of sin, people who live loose, lives people who are drug addicts. We are and obviously drug addicts as well. We see the evidence written on their face and just how they can. And so the wages of sin is death. We see it written on people’s faces. We see by how they carry on. We see by how their lives going. And so sin is the reason. General Sin according to. Chapter 5, verse 12. Of all of sin. And so we all inherit that sin nature. So we all have a little part of that. We all have that in common, but the specific sins that we engage in that exactly brings death itself. So I guess everybody dies because of, I guess the general sin that pervades everybody but individual and specific sins contribute to that.

Yeah, definitely. The Bible says the way of the transgression is hard.

Is there any part of our person that ceases to exist when we die?

Well, I think our body well in one sense, our body. Yeah, like our we leave the shell behind someday we’ll get a new body. So I mean, you could say that we get a body of sorts after.

Will it be like that same body just glorified or just a completely new body?

It seems like it will be new again. That’s going to be one of those things I’ve got to learn more about and I think we’ll learn more about an eternity.

Yeah, I think so.

I think. Of when Mary saw Jesus at the tomb there, he said he had to go to his father, and when the disciples saw Jesus on the road to mayus, they didn’t recognize him.

Right.

There were times where they did, and there were times where they didn’t, so there was something different about him. He wasn’t entirely the same.

Right.

So it will be interesting and that’s the other thing, like the Bible doesn’t tell us a lot of things. We’d like to know about heaven. God’s giving us everything we need. But from what I understand, I guess it depends on how you define heaven, because you know what happens to us when we die. Well, our body stays behind so. What do we get? On the other side, and it depends how you define heaven. If heaven is where God is, well, then you know heaven exists now. But if heaven is the New Jerusalem, which I know it’s also described as, then heaven doesn’t yet. And yet people are with the Lord. And people don’t have their glorified bodies yet, according to Scripture. So what it look like? I don’t know. Moses and Elijah were, you know, the disciples could see them. Jesus could talk with them, apparently, and communicate with them. But they didn’t have their glorified bodies yet. So there’s still questions about that.

When I was studying or at least preparing, I thought the same thing too. I’m like, man, I’ve got a lot to go deeper on and study and learn as much as well. And I was just thinking of when we were talking about what happens to the body, which parts cease to exist. I’m also thinking of so many religions, say different things, that Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you are annihilated. You no longer. Unless, unless you’re one of the 144,000, and then you’re brought back by God’s power, there are Catholics who believe, correct me if I’m wrong. Catholics believe that when someone dies, their body goes into the grave to be resurrected at a later date, their soul goes into purgatory. And if you pray enough. For them, or if there are enough good works done on your behalf by living people, then perhaps if you go through like a purification period you can go up to heaven. People believe that and then there are plethora of other ideas, not even to mention people who don’t even claim the name of Christ. Although those people that I mentioned obviously are not within Orthodoxy. So I guess the question I’m asking is, yes, who’s right? Is there life after death, or do we cease to exist? What does the Bible say?

Hi, Mr. Before you go into that, you’re listening to the Removing Barriers podcast. We’re sitting down with missionary Marco and we’re discussing death. Is there anything beyond? We’ll be right back.

Hi, this is Jay. MCG and I would like for you to help us remove barriers by going to removing barriers.net and subscribing to receive all things removing barriers. If you’d like to take your efforts a bit further and help us keep the mics on, consider donating at removing barriers.net/donate. Removing barriers, a clear view of the cross.

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Based on the last question. I was just looking at Wilmington’s book here. The section on limbo and purgatory.

Aren’t those the same thing, limbo and purgatory? They’re not the same thing.

Well, I’ll read you what it says about purgatory. What does Roman Catholic Church say about man’s destiny, purgatory and limbo, or two central fastest to the view under purgatory, it says this is the Roman Catholic. That those who die at peace with the church but are not perfect must undergo penal and purifying sufferings. However, this is only for those who die with lesser sin. For all dying with mortal sin are forever condemned to hell, Catholic Doctrine teaches that a person’s stay in purgatory may be shortened by the gifts or services rendered by living people on behalf of the beloved dead one through the Roman Catholic. And it talks about the different councils that approve that and then under limbo, it says this is another aspect of Roman Catholic theology that teaches that all unbaptized children and the mentally incompetent upon death precede to a permanent place of natural happiness. But not heaven. This view seems to run contrary to Jesus own teaching, and then they refer to Matthew 18. One through three and Matthew 19, that says, except you be converted and become as little children. You shall not enter the Kingdom of heaven. So he already says that. Can do, apparently, and then Matthew 1914 says suffer little. Children forbid them, not for such as the King of heaven. So that’s what Wilmington has to say about that.

I thought they were the same thing. This whole time.

No, I’ve got something to learn about Catholics, that’s for sure.

So biblically, let’s answer the question from a biblical perspective though, because I think this is. Or you can say one of those million dollar questions that constantly acts like why are we here? Is there life beyond? So is there anything after that?

Sure. Well, according to the scriptures, after death is judgment. Even you wrote that in a message to me there, Hebrews 927, as it is appointed on the man wants to die. But after this the judgment. So I mean after death is our judgment and beyond that we have eternity, John 336 those that have the Sun have life. Those that have not the sun. It’s not life, but the rap on them so. All men have either eternal wrath or eternal life coming to them all men, women, boys, girls, and so we were just talking about limbo and purgatory. But Scripturally, it’s just one or the other. Those who have the son who have life and those who don’t have the son who have wrath. Yeah, that is what happens beyond death. That’s why the Bible often talks about death. The journey I was just looking at the Old Testament, whether it talks about Abraham, whether it talks about different people, it says gathered unto his people. So it’s talking about going somewhere, even when David was crying over his son that passed away, his baby that passed away, he said he shall not come to me. But I’ll go on to him. Death has often talked about his journey and obviously. They’re not just talking about going to sleep, they’re talking about going somewhere. It may not be a geographical. Place, but it’s a.

Yeah, definitely. You mentioned about heaven and hell, I just want to put a plug in for episode 64 and episode 65 episode 64 is Hell and a loving God and episode 65 is Heaven and the Holy God. And we did both of them with our friend DW. So if anyone want to kind of dive a little bit into heaven and hell, we do have those. Vessels, they’re available. Alright, mission and Marcos. So do you think that what we do in our present life determine our outcome for the afterlife?

Yeah, it would depend on how you define do. There’s a good book called Done and it talks about the two religions really. If you call that or the two face do versus done. Starting the script, there’s nothing I can do. Whenever the Bible talks about eternal life, it never talks about it as a reward. Never talks about something that can be merited, and it’s always talked about as a gift. So and. The sense the Scriptures are pretty clear that gifts are not thing that we merit. Gifts are something freely given even Romans 623. This is the key to life and Christianity for the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus. Christ our Lord. So gifts are not earned. They’re not worked for God offer his eternal life, and if somebody will just humbly call on Jesus. I think the number one sin, the number one inhibition, the number one prob. That keeps people from God. Is believe that completely. You know, when someone wants to live life their own way when they don’t want God as their authority, when they don’t wanna answer for how they live their life. They’re too proud to call on God. And yet if somebody will just have that attitude of humility and say, God, I’m a mess. God, I’m a Sinner. God, I’m undone without you. God, I do deserve because of my sinfulness. I do deserve an eternity in hell. I do deserve death. God, would you save me? And when somebody cries to God? With that attitude. He’s so loving. The Bible says that God is love. But he doesn’t love us because we’re loving he loves. Because he is love and so he looks at a sinful people. He looks at a sinful person. I often think of when Jesus looked at Judas. We can’t comprehend the love of God. Looked at Judas and the moment. Of his betrayal. Knowing that he’s going to be executed for what this man’s done, he did nothing but good and he took this man around with him for years. And the God for that was betrayal, to be crucified, to be executed in the worst, most shameful way. And yet he looks him in the eye, and he calls him friend. And so I can’t comprehend that kind of love, but that’s the kind of love that Jesus had for all mankind. And even the man as terrible as Judas. And so when a person looks to God and realizes how undeserving. They are and they call out to God and humility. God saves them. These are that. You ask about what do we do? And I think it’s a good question. But what religion confuses is that they think that there’s something they can do to merit. And that’s, I guess the difference between what the Bible teaches and what religion teaches what God’s word teaches, what every religion in this world teaches every religion in this world doesn’t deal with sin. It doesn’t really deal with what to do with Christ and his atonement. Why on Earth did Jesus come to this earth to die? If I can do things on my own, and so the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus paid the price for my sin, he died of death that I did. Deserve so that in turn I can accept that free gift that I don’t deserve and he can take me to heaven. So what do I do to be saved and just have that attitude of humility and and cry out to God personally? You know, there’s a part of our faith that’s intellectual and I’m a independent Baptist. I believe in solid doctrine. And yet I know that doctrine. Loan and even understanding doctrine loan can’t save me. There’s a personal part of my faith. Where I need to look to God as a father, and I need to ask him to save me personally. I can understand those things. Those of us who know a. Little bit of the. Bible know that the Devils believe and tremble. But there’s something beyond just intellectual knowledge that makes us say there needs to come that step of faith, that trust, that personal portion to our faith. That acceptance. And So what do I need to do to be saved? It would be that it would be accept God’s perspective of me and just make it personal and receive that gift that he’s given me.

Yeah, man. You know, I think that question is a very important question because a lot of folks will look at. Even what you just said and said, OK, so you’re telling me that this person used bad guy X from history? Yeah, could be saved because he has nothing to do with his actions, but what Christ has done upon the cross for him. And a lot of people look at it and say, man, that’s absurd.

Well, and it is absurd, isn’t it? I think you know I. Firmly believe in eternal security. I firmly, firmly believe it. I think because we did nothing to deserve salvation. We also we don’t do nothing to keep it, but I heard a preacher recently say something that I appreciated. Maybe it is slightly controversial, but he said he doesn’t believe in sinless perfection and I don’t think any Bible believing Christian does or should. And yet he says he believes that far too often, Christians become far too comfortable with sinful. I mean, when God saves me, he purifies me. And so when somebody even asked the question about a Hitler or the classic deathbed confession, if someone were to say, well, you know, on my deathbed, except Christ is that repentance. I know you believe in repentance. Anybody who believes the Bible understands except you repent. You shall likewise perish. And so if that’s true. And I can feel comfortable with my sin. And then just hope that I’m conscious in that last second before being saved. That’s not a repentant heart. That’s a heart who loves and revels in sin and just wants to get fire insurance, and that’s not salvation. And so I don’t believe in sinless perfection, but I do believe that God changes lives. And so I don’t think that any Christian should ever feel comfortable with sin and just that whole thing about Hitler. Well, of course, technically, if God would save a Judas. You would say the Hitler, but Hitler wouldn’t continue being Hitler. You know, there would be a difference. You know, the thief on the cross repented and accepted Jesus Christ, and yet he defended Christ to the other criminal. You know, he didn’t do anything to be saved, but that man’s. Whole mind changed and so when people talk about death bed confessions, those are not people whose minds have changed. Those are people who want their life insurance, who want their fire insurance. They want their ticket to heaven.

Yeah, definitely.

That’s not repentance.

You know, you brought up that because a lot of time when, especially when celebrity. He’s die, you know. Think about Prince and Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston and a lot of other celebrities when they die. A lot of folks like to say, oh, heaven has just received a new Angel and this and that. And when Christian pushed back and that they will get, oh, you don’t know what happened. If before they die, they repaired and all this stuff, sure. But I’m like, all of a sudden, they know the gospel. And believe it just because they’re dying, you know, I think deathbed confession is possible. We see the teeth on the cross. Who repented? Of course you know, on his deathbed, practically. But I think it’s very rare.

Of course.

And as you were saying earlier. Yeah, we can’t use the exception for the rule. You know, we can’t use the outliers and use it as a rule. For instance, if you take, you know, a survey of salaries in my area, and let’s say, Mark Zuckerberg happened to live in my area. Well, yeah, the average salary would be, let’s say it’s 90,000 or whatever. Rockbird millions and millions of dollars. But yeah, so you can’t say, oh, in this area, there are people who make millions of dollars per year. That’s true, but that’s the exception. That’s outlier. That’s not the rule and to say ohh I believe people gonna repent on their deathbed. Thing is a gamble that I wouldn’t want to take on. I don’t think it’s a gamble that anyone want to take on because one who say you gonna have a deathbed, by the way.

Of course, you never know.

Do you know how we going to die? You know.

It’s interesting you say that I saw this article in Discover magazine. This Hospice physician, he interviewed 1400 patients about dying. He wrote some articles on it, so it’s interesting as far as I know, this man isn’t a Christian, but he knows a lot about death and what people have gone through at the time of their death. And he talks about these near death experiences these people have. So there’s this international review board and they do these studies with these people that are near death. And they do this confusion assessment method and it’s a clinical tool to rule out delirium. And so just the name of this doctor is Christopher Care. So he started this in 1999 after working in Hospice. So it’s interesting. I don’t think we should put all our faith in dreams or visions or anything like that, but I do think that death helps us not be distracted. And so, as uncomfortable with this topic is, I think it’s important to think on and I think people who are near death see things from sometimes a much clearer perspective than the rest of us. And so he’s not talking about the moments and hours before death, because sometimes. They have a deoxygenated brain and altered states. He’s not talking about that. He’s talking about days, weeks and months before death, and so some of these people, for example, are driving, doing taxes, living alone. They don’t have compromised neurologic functions, but they’re highly. Functional people, but they are having these near death experiences, so 90% of people have. Of days or weeks before death, at least one of these events, they call them end of life experience. So just a life changing event near their death. That doesn’t necessarily mean they got saved, but something dramatic has happened to them to make them reevaluate their life, and they don’t call them dreams because even the people who they interviewed, they say they wouldn’t call them dreams because they’re. They don’t consider that. They are. The stories are remarkable. He writes. Here even the negative ones are probably the most transformational or meaningful somebody, for example, who had PTSD and his end of life dreams. It was comforted by seeing soldiers that he felt survival’s guilt from he could sleep. He found peace after that, and then another one here. You could be 95 years old, but you could hear your mother’s voice. From when you were five that you’re hearing so just things that came to mind. I just think trusting. See, you know, people get their minds cleared at death. I was actually reading another book. There’s a an interesting book I found on biblebelievers.com. It’s called the dying testimonies of saved and unsaved. It’s by SB Shah and it’s got all kinds of people. I don’t know if you know the atheist Voltaire, the God hating. Voltaire, when he was near death. He pled. Oh, Christ, oh Lord Jesus. And then he would cry out. I must die abandoned of God and men.

Oh wow.

And then the lady who looked after him said, for all the wealth of Europe, she would never see another infidel die. It was a scene of horror that lies beyond all exaggeration, and so then they have testimonies of other people. They have Suzanna W when she was. Gonna pass away Cheero children as soon as I’m released. Seeing form of. Praise to God was her last editor quest. Then John has, I don’t know if you’re familiar with him. Yeah. In 1415, he was burned as a heretic and he said into thy hands. Oh Lord, do I commit my spirit that was redeem me almost good and faithful God, Lord Jesus Christ, assist me and help me that with a firm and present mind, by thy most powerful grace, I may undergo this most cruel. And ignominious death, to which I am condemned for preaching the truth. Thy most holy gospel. They asked him if he would recant. He said no. I never preached any doctrine of any evil tendency and what I taught. With my lips. I now seal with my blood. The flames were lit and he sung a hymn so loud that he could be heard through the ********* of flames.

Oh wow.

And it had several other ones. John Bunyan, before he passed away, he said. We shall meet year long to sing the new song. And remain happy forever in a world without end. And so it’s a fascinating book. Just seeing the testimonies. Testimonies of the saved and the lost. The one of just. Utter shock and the one of peace to meet their maker. And so I brought up that other study, even though it wasn’t a Christian study, because I think people often close to death see things with a lot less distractions than we do. And so as. Unpopular and as negative as the topic is, I think it’s important. Those people in that study didn’t look at their visions or their events that they had as a negative thing. They looked at them as a. Positive thing and I. Think it’s a good for a Christian to? Take a step back. I mean, the Bible talks about meditation. Think we should be people who should be all right with facing some of the hard things in life that others don’t want to face? Because eventually we’re going. To have to face them, far too many people in this world don’t want to face the hard things in life. I don’t. Think that should be said of a Christian.

Yeah, it wasn’t in equalities where the Bible tells us that is better to go to the House of mourning than.

Oh, sure.

Yeah, definitely.

Let me ask you this. We hear so many stories of people and their near death experiences what they think they saw after they supposedly died and came back and different religions. As we mentioned before, have all of their different ideas about what happens after death. How can we know who’s telling the truth? How can anyone be sure of what happens?

No, that’s a good question. People are fascinated by this topic. There’s several books. If you look up some New York Times bestsellers, the ones that deal with people who had resurrection experiences, they came back from the dead. They came back from heaven. There’s a couple of children who said they’ve come back. From heaven those books. Became bestsellers, or one person, who said they came back from hell? Those books all became best. Sellers and so people are fascinated with the subject now. As a Christian, I mean not everything anyone says is true or can be taken as gospel. We know that, but there is a human fascination with the subject, and so even the cities I was citing earlier, I think they’re interesting. I wouldn’t put a lot of weight on what somebody saw because I mean I. Obviously, in an altered state, I may not see something correctly, especially if I’m medicated, etcetera. But what I. Can take is the truth is what God says in his word. He wants me to know about it. Unity first John 513 these things have. I written unto you that. Believe on the name of the son of God. And I believe every word of the Bible is important, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the son of God, so tense on that is present. So I can know right now today that I have that is within my possession eternal. So when anyone ever says, well, when I die, I’ll find out. Hopefully I’m alright, you know? Hopefully the Lord looks. Down mercifully on me, that’s not a biblical response. The biblical response is God wants me to know, and I can know, and I think I spoke to that earlier. If someone just calls to God with that because of what his son did, receive that gift of eternal life, they can be saved and they can know that they’re saved. They don’t have to hope for the best because it’s not based on them. It’s not based on the intensity of their faith, it’s based on the goodness of God and his goodness to. Towards us in saving us and what? Christ did on the cross.

Yeah, definitely, you know, missionary. Marco, as we talk about that, I think all of us have known someone who have died have been to funerals and stuff like that. But it seems to be the one thing in life that we’re not accustomed to. We never really build up. I guess there’s some doctors and some maybe. Pastors who? Have seen it so much that sure it doesn’t have effect on the person as it would have an someone who are not involved in that feel, but that’s true, only one is not their loved one sure, but when it’s one of our loved ones, even though we know people die and it’s an everyday occurrence, we never get accustomed to that. Why do you think that is the case?

I think one of the reasons might be regret and I think you’re right. It’s one thing, Pastor see death more than a lot of other people. Obviously funeral directors see death more than a lot of people. Or our doctors see it. Everything else, of all things, I listened to a pig farmer years ago and he said he often thought about death because the line of work he’s in and not necessarily of the individual pigs he’s dealing with or the farm animals he’s dealing with, he. Thinks about life in general because he sees life and death and even though you know that may sound silly, but he sees it in the animal Kingdom animal world and he thinks about it himself, obviously. It’s nothing like dealing with it personally. Whether you’re a. Or whether you’re a pastor. But I think you can learn some things from how people deal with it. Just like I said, reading those testimonies, you can see the truth of what it is to die as an infidel and what it is to die as a Christian. There’s a difference there. There’s something beyond an intellectual knowledge where somebody. Death with confidence. And so I think one reason it’s hard to become accustomed to it personally or one reason people, you know infidels particularly have difficulty with. It is regret. Think about the things people invest their lives in. They live for money. Often time they live for foolishness. And so that can be a hard thing. You know, I think that’s one reason men and women have midlife crisis because they figure men. I’ve gotten half of my life before. For me, and this is where I am, I wanted to do so much more. I don’t have much. Time left and I. Think it’s difficult to become accustomed to because it’s so easy to distract ourselves. We live in a culture that loves to be distracted. Whether it’s, you know, look up things or watching things on YouTube or watching movies or whatever, just really not dealing with. Deep and important and the existential things about life. And when it finally catches up to you, that’s a hard thing to deal with. People can ignore things in life, but when death comes, I guess the good thing about it is it it sobers you up, it makes you think about the important things in life. You’ve heard this saying. Nobody on their deathbed says, you know, I wish I worked, you know, more hours at the company. People often invest their lives in things that. They’d be ashamed to. Have invested it on their deathbed, so I think that I think maybe regret would be one of the things. That makes death hard.

You know, as you said, that I’m thinking about several testimonies or older folks. I’m talking about folks in the late 70s. 80S and a lot of them, they look at themselves and they say, how did I get here? How did I become a 70 plus year old or 80 plus year old? Because to them they still, especially if they’re minus sharp and everything, they’re still in their mind, see themselves as 35 years old, but their. Body is telling them no, you’re 75 or 85 years old, and I wonder if it’s something like that. You know, you always think you have you. You, even though you don’t have it personal example. Again, I have a uncle which will stay nameless. At this point I have many uncles. So good luck guessing which one I’m talking about. But when I look at him, even though he is, you know, made 60s at this point, he still behaves like he’s in his early 20s and early 30s.

Oh wow.

At times, you know, money is important to him and ladies are important to him and like, shouldn’t it be beyond that at this point? There shouldn’t be other things be important to you, but I think people that live their life like that when it’s fine, they catch up to them because that is gonna creep up on all of us sometime. I think they look back and say, oh, I wasted all this energy and all this time doing all these things, which was fleeting. And then I have, you know, I have no more time, so I wonder if it’s something like that that happened that time. That that’s why we don’t get accustomed to it, because we don’t expect it, even though we know that it happens. You know, for instance, our parents. I can’t imagine my mom’s passing on, but I know the Bible teaches us that one day. Hey, everybody gonna die? That mean my mom is gonna die? My in-laws are gonna die, but I can’t imagine that they would die. And I remember. Aunt said that about my grandmother. She said she never looked at her mother as being old or as being someone who’s going to pass on. And she’s a nurse, and she probably see dead pretty often, so I wonder if it’s like that. It happened to everybody else, but not to me.

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of things like that. Christians in years gone by, basically. What is salvation? And they came up with three words and one of them was naticia, then ascensus and the fiducia. Those Latin words would be noticia would be like the word we get noticed from. It’s intellectually understanding the gospel, understanding that Jesus Christ died and rose again. A census would be agreeing with that. And so that would be, if you want to. Call it a step although. Technically, one step ascensus would. He just be OK. You are now. You are with God on that. But the third one is key because there’s a lot of people who believe in God, who believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins. But a lot of people haven’t taken that last step of fiducia, which would be trust, and taking that step of faith and say I need this Lord, give it to me. I don’t remember the statistics. But the majority of people know. They need to save for. But the majority of people also don’t.

Right.

So like it’s one thing to intellectually know something. I live in a culture and I live in a society and and I think you. Where everybody says they believe in God or many people say they believe in God, well, that’s great.

Right.

But believing in God is not the same as trusting in God. And so I think those things are key to understand that there needs to be a step of trusting in him, not just intellectually agreeing with him. And so I guess another thing is it’s one thing to have death and be regretful, but I think of my parents. My parents are in their 80s. And they love the Lord. Praise the Lord their save people. And yet they’ve said this before, and I’ve heard other older Saints say this as well. There’s more people waiting for them up there than they have left behind here. And so there’s that part of seeing death too. Like they don’t have a morbid outlook on life, but they do recognize that someday they’re there’s more waiting for them up there than they’re leaving behind here. And I think that happens to all of us. We get older.

Yeah, definitely. I heard one testimony. Of a lady. She died when she was like 100 and 504. 105 wow. And there were thousands of people at their funeral and the pastor who was really this to me saying, you know, if you die at that age and there’s that many people at your funeral that you’ve made an impact on many lives because sure, the people at the funeral and at your peers. You know, at that age, most of the people at the funeral are going to be people that you have made an impact on, but your friends and family and stuff. That we have already passed on so definitely. Yeah, arbitrary market. Let’s wrap it up. We have been talking about that and one thing we have kind of a talk about, but kind of left out is the preparation for that. You quoted Hebrews, Chapter 9, verse 27 already. And as it is appointed unto man wants. To die, how do we prepare for that?

Good question. I think Jesus made it pretty clear when we look through the scriptures, we see, you know, Speaking of death. Jesus gives a parable, not even a parable. He talks about the rich man and Lazarus and Luke, 16. And I say it’s not a parable because God never calls it a parable. He just says there was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared. Consciously every day and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of. Worse, and desire to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the Angels in Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried and in hell. He lift up his eyes, being in torments and seeing Abraham Afar off. And Lazarus in his boss. And he cried and said Father Abraham have mercy on me and send lazareth that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am tormented in this flame, but Abraham said, son, remember that thou and thy lifetime receive thy good things, and likewise Lazarus, evil things. But now he is comforted and thou art tormented. And beside all this between us and you, there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot either could they pass to us. That would come from. Hence, they said, I pray thee therefore that thou would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said unto him, they have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. And he said Nay father Abraham. But if one went on to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though 1 rose from the dead. So there you have, in a nutshell, a story of two souls. And one went to God, obviously trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ and what he’s done looking forward. Obviously this was Jesus talking to these. So Jesus hadn’t died yet, but this man was looking forward to the coming Redeemer and the rich man had not. And it’s interesting to me, a couple of things never does the rich man ask for a second chance. Never does the rich man say, you know, just give me one more chance. Let me come back and talk to my brother. He knows his fate is sealed, and I even wonder, just like we were talking earlier about deathbed confessions. I don’t know that people in hell. Ohh, maybe I’m being a little bit. I’m jumping into conclusions here, but I don’t know that people in hell want to be out of there. They’ve rejected God. They know what they deserve and they won’t humble themselves to trust in Lord’s Christ. I may be wrong about that, but I don’t see this man asking for that. He knows his lot, and yet he does ask that his brethren be saying.

Right.

And So what God says is they have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them and. So some people will say, well, see poor people go to heaven and rich people go to hell. Apparently not, because Abraham said to them they need the Bible. They need the scriptures. They need God’s word. They need Moses and the prophets, which is what he’s referring to there. So we need to have faith in God, that humility, to trust in that God. They looked back, or they looked back. From the old test that look forward to a savior, we look back to that savior who’s already died and risen from the dead and conquered death for us. Taking our place. And so just like Abraham was telling this rich man you have God’s word, you have the scriptures trust in that coming savior because he’s. Come at that time. And now as we look back, we have the Bible as well, and we can look back and see what Jesus Christ has done for us, and we can trust in that finished work and be saved because of it. And so if someone wants to conquer death, if someone wants to have peace. Beyond this life, and they need to trust in Lord Jesus Christ. And that’s the story Jesus gave about that.

And man missionary, Marko, thank you for joining us on the Removing Barriers podcast.

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