Episode 110

The deity of Christ is a core and foundational doctrine that we absolutely have to get right in order to be genuinely saved. Yet, 52% percent of American adults and 30% of professing Christians do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. Instead they relegate Him to the realm of “a good man,” “a great teacher,” or “first created being.” This is a significant barrier that must be addressed if anyone is to have a clear view of the cross. Here at Removing Barriers, we emphatically affirm that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, without equivocation or qualification. In this episode, we sit down with Leopold and dive into the scriptures teaching this monumental truth, hoping not only to remove barriers that listeners may have regarding the topic, but also to equip believers with the scriptures necessary to help remove that barrier in the lives of others.

And even back in the Old Testament we had reference that say that God is the only savior. And since Jesus Christ is the one who came down to earth to die on the cross for our sins, he is our savior. And if God is the only savior, that means Jesus Christ is God.

Thank you for tuning in to the Removing Barriers podcast. I’m Jay. And I’m MCG, and we’re attempting to remove barriers so we can all have a clear view of the cross. This is episode 110 of the Removing Barriers podcast. And in this episode we will be sitting down with the author of the book The Divinity of Jesus Christ to discuss the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, Leopold. Welcome back to the Removing Barriers podcast. Thank you very much for having me again. It’s a pleasure to be with you guys and discuss this important topic.

Yes, I know you’re busy man, running your own business and everything, so thank you for putting us in your busy schedule. Right, it’s my pleasure. Great.

Tell us about your YouTube ministry again, because every so often you send me a text or whatever to listen to those videos and I learn a lot from them. So tell the folks about you. Yeah, so this is a ministry I started a year ago. And initially when I started I was thinking more about French speaking audience. I was targeting people who speak French, so mostly from Africa and the Caribbean is one of them as well, europe and Canada where people mostly speak French because I realized many of the French speaking people did not have really enough resources, you know, to really understand the gospel, the scripture. So I felt there was a need, you know, to reach out that audience. And so that’s how I started the ministry. And most of my podcasts are in French, and not only I’m targeting French speaking people, but I’m also targeting Muslims because coming from a French speaking country and a Muslim country, so I just feel the hard to reach out to Muslims. So I’ve been producing, I would say on a weekly basis, some podcasts videos on various topics related to apologetics, comparing Christianity with all these other religions. But I have been focusing mainly on Islam and then the Java witnesses. So for the past year that has been my main target. And of course also teaching some basic Christian doctrines so that also I can reach out to the Christians and to all those who are professing to be Christian to make sure they understand those fundamental Christian doctrine that unites all of us Christian. Great.

And we did interview Leopold in episode 77. We got his testimony. Leopold, how were your barriers removed? And also in episode 78 we delve a little bit into Muslims, What do you believe with Leopold? So you can check out those episodes as well and of course check out his YouTube channel, the name of it is Edimof. E as in Edward, D as in David, I as India, m as Mary, o as Oscar and F as Frank. So it’s like discerning spirit. If you want to take the French translation. I want to invite people to be discerning, especially when you have so many divergent teaching in various parts of Christianity, different denominations, different some of the sector. What are they teaching? I want to make sure we can go back to those core fundamental Christian doctrine like the deity of Christ, the Trinity, you know, and the rapture, things like that, you know, a number of basic Christian belief and doctrine. Yeah. And I personally have bookmarked some of your lessons in my phone. I actually downloaded a Quran in my phone and I bookmarked some of the verses that you have highlighted to witness to Muslims and I’ve used it at least once already. So definitely I appreciate your lessons there.

You wrote a book called The Divinity of Jesus Christ. Tell us, how did you go about starting that book? Let’s start there. Alright, so I would say just following up from our previous episode where I shared my testimony, when I got saved, I understood what the gospel was. I came to faith in Jesus Christ, asked him to forgive me my sin. That’s where my journey starts into really delving deep into the scriptures. I would spend hours going through the scripture and then after I would say maybe six months to a year of me getting saved, I started a Bible study at the World Bank where I used to work. And folks start coming around and they start seeing interest in the Bible study. And that got me into really studying even further because I was challenged myself, being a new believer and not knowing even a lot about the scripture. So that forces me to start going book by book, going into indepth and looking at commentaries. And the next thing you know, I start feeling the need to write down some of these ideas that I have. Gaza, through my Bible study questions about the deity of Christ. What are some of the beliefs of, let’s say, some of these sector like Java, Witnesses, mormons and Islam, what do they teach? Hinduism. So as I’m digging into some of these religions and comparing them with Christianity, the idea came to start working on this book. And that’s how I started writing it. And it took me maybe a year and a half to write the book. And I mean, it’s been ten years now. I would say I almost forgot what I wrote, but it was a topic of interest and dear to my heart seeing where I came from and what many believe as I’m coming across people with different religion. What do they believe and why do they believe what they believe? And I found it useful to be able to defend my faith, to come up with evidence how can we prove that Jesus Christ is God? For example, how can we prove the Bible is the word of God compared to all these other scriptures that others believe, whether it’s Hinduism, the Vedas, or whether it’s the Quran? Why do they believe what they believe? And how does Christianity stand with respect to these other beliefs?

Yeah, definitely. And we do have your book listed on our website. So if you go to removingbarre. Netbooks, leopold book will be right at the top, titled The Divinity of Jesus Christ Revisited in the Third Millennium. And I’m sure that our listeners will be interested to dig in. And it’s incredible that you say it took you a year and some change to write. The book is very hefty. 400 pages, not including the appendices. Okay? So get ready for a deep intellectual dive into the explanation of the divinity of Christ. And when we talk about the divinity, the deity of Christ, one word that often comes up is the word Trinity. And many people who deny the deity of Christ often have the argument that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible and that this was just something that the council came up with. At some point, just a bunch of old men got together and decided that they’re going to come up with this concept of the Trinity. Leopold, could you take a moment and explain to our listeners what exactly do we mean when we say Trinity? What is the Trinity? And how would you explain it to someone that perhaps comes from the perspective that, you know, Jesus is not God?

Absolutely. That’s very important. And I know even me, as Christian, I did struggle to try to understand what this doctrine is. So I would define it as the doctrine that defines the nature of God, right, as one being in every person. And when you say that, many people tend to ask you, so when you say one being in one person, what do you mean? So I would say there is one God, right, and he’s one being. Because we don’t believe in multiple beings, like, for example, the Mormons believe, and we can come back to that later. We believe in one God, one being, but in three person. And you mentioned earlier, many people, the argument they put forward is the Trinity doesn’t exist in the Bible. But that’s a fallacious argument. Why? Because you have to look at what the Bible give us data, information regarding God, how the Bible itself defines God, right? Because this is the word of God. It’s a revelation that comes from God. So we take it as it is and base on what God has revealed in the Scripture. In the 66 book that we have as our final authority of God’s revelation. It clearly states that there is one being in three persons. And you can define one being as, let’s say a being is the substance or the quality that make you what you are, a being. Okay. What you are as opposed to a person, which is the substance, or if you want a quality that make you who you are. And that’s the distinction that I find quite useful to help me understand what do I mean one being, god is a divine being. We also and you can put it like in comparison to human being, but I don’t want to compare. God is very completely different from us as human being, but we can make that analogy and say we are human beings. So what defines what we are is we are human being. And God is a divine being. It’s what defines what God is. Okay, now, who the person is identified by, what makes the person who that person is. And that’s why you have three person in the Godhead, because Jesus Christ is clearly identified. He is God and he has a human nature. So that’s who he is. That his identity, if you want. And you have the Holy Spirit, which is a different distinct person from Jesus Christ, who is the Son, and you have also the Father, who is another person distinct from the sun that’s in a nation. That’s how I would define the Trinity. But obviously this is beyond us as human beings to understand the nature of God. Sure. And we can come into more versus just define let the Bible define itself, what Trinity is.

Okay, let me ask one follow up question to that. You made the distinction between a being and a person. And anyone listening would often, perhaps in their everyday lives, hear those words being used interchangeably. But you’re saying that there’s a distinction, and just so that I’m clear, a being are the sum total of those things that make you what you are. And your personhood are the sum total of those things that make you who you are. So if I were to draw an example, I’m just walking through this so that I understand it like a human being has a certain list of characteristics that make them what they are. Human beings are bound by time. Human beings are finite. Human beings are imperfect. Human beings are fill in the blank as opposed to, say, an animal or a plant. Those are not being, they’re not sentient, they don’t have that quality. Whereas God is a divine being means he’s not bound by time. He is perfect. He is. And so, okay, all those different things now, so we understand being. Now when it comes to person, those are the qualities, as you say, that make who you are who you are. Exactly. And so would that be his? I don’t want to say their because it’s one God, but the particular roles that they feel like, for example, the Father absolutely inordinate. Okay, could you go in?

Yes, you can take it in that route. But let me give you an example. So let’s say me and my wife, right, okay. We are both human beings, so we share that human nature being if you want, right, but we are distinct person because first of all, I’m male and she’s female. One thing that distinguishes I’m just giving an allergy, I don’t want to use that again to say this applies to God, but I’m just saying that and what identify me, my name for example, when you say loopholes are a male maybe living in Virginia. So those are the things that define me, who I am. Because if you ask me who am I, I’m going to tell you I’m Leopold. That identify me right. Even though I share the same nature, if you want, or being with my wife. But I’m distinct from my wife. And the fact that I am distinct from my wife defined me as a person who I am through my name, through my gender, I would say through, you know, different things that identify me in a unique way as a person. And of course that personality has your will. You have a will as a human being. You have emotions and you have, let’s say, intellectual mind, right, that sort of defined the person, that personality that you have identify you by who you are, but you share the same nature as every other human being. It’s interesting that you put gender in there as a side note, how fundamental that is to personhood and how those lines are being blurred today is absolutely inconsonable. What’s happening. I’m sorry, go ahead.

Yeah, I was just going to ask because you said that the Holy Spirit is a person, a part of the Trinity, but a lot of churches teaches that the Holy Spirit is actually a force. A force. How would you defend that? Firstly, especially true scripture. Yes, absolutely. It’s totally wrong and it’s not in line with what scripture is teaching. And I was going to give you a couple of examples. Many people would say, for example, this doctrine of the Trinity is in the New Testament because that’s where you have a more clear if you want a definition of the Trinity, the triumph God. But if you go back to the Old Testament, starting with the first book, the Genesis, chapter one, verse one, the Trinity is defined right there because in the Hebrew it says elohim in the beginning God. And that term God is elohim and it’s a plural term for God. It doesn’t necessarily just apply to the Godhead. It could be any false God, but it’s a plural name, a noun if you want. Okay. Then you have the word created, which is in singular, the word bara created out of ex andylo, if you want. So you have a plural noun accompanied by a singular verb already from there you have the definition of the triumph God because Elohim is God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son who are eternally equal as person in the Godhead, okay? So you have that.

And if you take, let’s say Genesis again, continuing on the book of Genesis, Genesis 1:26, god said, let us make man in our image. US is a prudent as well. So he’s saying the Holy Spirit, god the Son and God the Father, let us make man in our image. Okay? You take Genesis 3:22, same thing. And Genesis eleven seven, also use that prullarity of person if you want in the Godhead. So clearly, both from the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, we have many reference which show that we have a triumph God. And now to come to your question as the Holy Spirit, obviously if the Holy Spirit is, let’s say, the third person of the Trinity, obviously he’s not a force, he is a person. Why? Because he has a will, he has emotions and he has a mind. Because the Holy Spirit thinks the Holy Spirit can speak. As a matter of fact, I want to just turn to the Bible and I want to look at one. Samuel, chapter three and verse 21. Samuel, chapter three, verse 21. And we’re going to see something interesting about the Trinity. Verse 21 said, I’m going to start with verse 20. And all Israel, from Dan even to Bosheba, knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord. Now verse 21, and the Lord appear again in Shiloh. For the Lord revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the Lord. Okay? So the Lord revealed Himself by the word of the Lord. And who is the word of the Lord? From the New Testament we know the word of the Lord is Jesus Christ. Okay? So he revealed himself. Jesus Christ in the Old Testament revealed himself to Samuel because he is the word of God. And I want to take you again, let’s look at Genesis. Genesis, chapter 15, verse four and five. When God appeared to Abraham Abram at that time, so verse four said, and behold, the word of the Lord came unto him. Now, if it was the word of the Lord came, that means it’s a person. It has to be a person. Only a person can come to him and saying, this shall not be thy heir, but he that shall come forth out of thy own bowel shall be thy air. And then look at verse five. And he who is the he the word of the Lord, he does not even say the Lord. He said the word of the Lord brought him force abroad. He took Abram outside to show him all the stars and to promise him that his descendants are going to be as numerous as these stars. So it’s the word of the Lord that came out. So you can see clearly from the Old Testament that you have three distinct persons. And I want to take another example about the Holy Spirit. Now, how can we see that he is not a force, but he is clearly a person? Okay.

I will go to Isaiah 48 verse 15 said, even I have spoken. Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come you near unto me. Here is this I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there I am, and now the Lord God and His Spirit has sent me. Okay. The Lord God and his spirit has sent me A force cannot send another being if you want, or another person, right? It has to be clearly a person to be able to do those things. And in the New Testament, we are told as well that we can breathe the Holy Spirit. And if you remember the example in act five with Ananias and with the sapphire, when they lied to the apostles and they were dead right there because they did not share everything that they had sold and put it on the feet of the apostle so that it can be distributed to everybody according to their needs. So the Holy Spirit was grief because of that, because the Holy Spirit doesn’t want us to lie. It’s one of the commandments that we are not to lie. You have to speak the truth and be honest in every way. And you can grieve a physical force. You can only grieve a person with emotions, with a will, and with the mind who is able to think. And those are characteristics that we find throughout the scripture. And I’m just looking at the data. I’m an economist. I always work in day to day and night. That’s what I do. And I always like to go back to the data. And the reason why we have so many of these cults or these heresies in Christendom is because in many instances, they don’t take the whole counsel of God’s word. They take one verse or one passage, which seemed to defend the argument that, for example, that Jesus Christ was a created being, for example, in the case of Jehovah Witnesses, to claim that Jesus Christ is not God. But if you take the whole counsel of God’s word, if you look at all the data that the Bible has provided through this revelation, it is very clear you can only infer that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. And that’s what I try to prove in my book from the first chapter to the end, when we know, for example, jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, right? And even back in the Old Testament we had reference that say that God is the only Savior. And since Jesus Christ is the one who came down to earth to die on the cross for our sin, he’s our Savior. And if God is the only savior, that means Jesus Christ is God.

Yeah. Of course, you alluded as well to Romans 8:27, where the bible says, and he just search it, the heart, know it what is in the mind of the Spirit, because you make it in the session for the saints according to the will of God. So I think babies clearly saying there the Holy Spirit have a mind as you said, and of course, First Corinthians, chapter twelve and verse eleven, but all these work at that one self in spirit dividing to every man severally as he will, the whole spirit also have a will as alluded to. So, yeah, just let you agree with you because I think when you take the whole counsel of God, as you say, you can clearly see a lot of these doctrines are not just made up, they are taught in Scripture, as opposed to some folks may say, right!

I have a quick question, if I may. When we refer to the different persons within the Trinity, and we just read you took us to some verses in First Samuel and Jesus Christ is referred to as the Word of God. Now that sounds, for lack of a better word, weird in the sense that when I think of a word, I’m thinking of letters on a page that make up words. That’s what I’m thinking of when I hear Word, unless the term Word is a title of some sort. Like for example, if you’re referring to the Queen of England, you can refer to her as the Crown. When you say the Crown, you know you’re talking about the Queen and all of that institution. Is that what the Word means when we say the Word? Is it just a title or how is it an expression of his being? I hope I’m making sense asking that question. That’s a very good question. And so I would say as the Bible has defined Jesus Christ as being the Word, or some would call it the Logos, basically I would take it as he is being God himself. He’s the incarnation of truth. He’s the incarnation of truth. And God spoke the truth. He spoke his word, if you want, through the scripture. And I would understand the Word to be the truth itself, Jesus Christ being the Word, being the truth, right. And speaking in that truth, bringing forth that truth to the world and being personified, being personified, if you want, as the Word of God. Yeah. Okay.

So then, Brother Leopold, what scriptural evidence can you give us and can you give our listeners that are there to prove what you’ve just said? What can you share with us from the Scriptures that prove the deity of Christ? Before you answer that, you’re listening to the Removal Barriers podcast. We are sitting down with Leopold, the author of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. We’ll be right back.

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All right, Leopold, so just before the break, jeff was asking you for scriptural evidences that I did to prove the deity of Christ, to prove the Trinity. Would you give us some of those evidence? Yes. So there are so many, many reference throughout the scripture that clearly affirm the deity of Christ. So let’s take just a couple of examples. If you take Isaiah, the Book of Isaiah, chapter nine, verse six, this is a prophecy that Isaiah had received, actually, that he was sharing with the king who was in Israel at that time named AHAs. And in verse six, this is the prophecy which says, for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. Now, here, this is a prophecy written 700 years before the birth of Christ, and it’s announcing the birth of Jesus Christ as a human being coming down to earth. And that’s the child that is born. And at the same time, that same child is the eternal Son of God who has never been created. Unlike what some of these sects are professing, Jesus Christ, the divine person of Jesus Christ is eternal, okay? He has always been there, even before the beginning of creation. And that’s why in the Book of Revelation, you could say, I am the Alpha and the Omega, which means he was there at the beginning when the entire universe was being created, okay? And that’s what verse 16, it says, the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God. So this is a clear reference to Jesus Christ being Almighty God right here and then everlasting Father, meaning the Father of eternity, meaning he has been there before the beginning of every creation in this universe because he’s eternal. That’s what it means. And he’s the Prince of Peace.

Let me ask you a question on that verse too, especially the JWS. They will say, hey, it says the mighty God. It didn’t say the Almighty God. Is there a difference? Really? There is no difference because the same word used here. If you do the concordance with other words, those words clearly talked about Almighty God, right? But because here they want to use this fertility to say that it’s not talking about Almighty, but the word God that is used here is exclusively for God. So which means Almighty God. And let’s assume agree with them, let’s say it’s a mighty God. You have everlasting father. You cannot escape that, because everlasting Father, it doesn’t mean Jesus is God the Father. No, Jesus is God the Son. So we want to make that distinction. He’s a different person from God the Father, but he is the Father of eternity, meaning he is the source, he’s the origin of eternity, right? He was there before the beginning of everything that has been created. That’s what it means. So if we even forget Almighty God, but let’s concentrate on everlasting Father, that proves that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, because he’s the Father of eternity. He’s the origin of eternity. He’s been there from eternity past with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit.

And let me give you a couple of other verses. Let’s take Micah Five, which is another prophecy which talks about the birth of Jesus Christ. And let’s see what Micah five is saying here. Micah five, verse two. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah. Okay, speaking about the birth of Jesus Christ. Now, the prophet Micah prophesied around 700 BC, right? So, 700 years before Christ was born, he prophesied during the time of Isaiah and Amos, and this is what God gave him as a revelation. He said Bethlehem Ephratah. And by the way, there are two Bethlehem. There is another Bethlehem, which is in the northern part of Israel, this battle, and is in the southern part, it’s called Ephratah. Though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel. Speaking about Jesus Christ, who’s going to come at his second coming. This is not his first coming. He’s going to be the ruler. He’s going to rule and reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years. That’s what he’s anticipating here, because when he came in the first time, he died on the cross as a humble servant, so he was not ruling now. And then he said, yet out of the Shalkham force ruler in Israel, who’s going forth have been from old, from Everlasting, meaning his origins are eternal. And what eternal means, that means he has no beginning, there’s no concept of time with Him. We human beings all created, being abound by time and space. Time was created by God in the beginning, right? But Jesus Christ is outside of time. Why? Because he’s from Everlasting. Amen.

Okay. Another reference to Jesus Christ being clearly God. Now, if you want to come to the New Testament, we can also take some verses from the New Testament. Before the new. Testament. I want to talk about one verse in particular which clearly show the Trinity. There is what is called the Shema, which is Deuteronomy 6:4. It’s called the Shema. The verse says here, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Okay? The word one that is used there in Hebrew is called ehad. Okay? And I have had is what we call a composite unity, meaning you have a plurality in that unity. That’s why I say one god. And the same word he had is used in Genesis 2:24. If you remember Genesis 2:24 about a man and a woman being together. He said, the man shall leave his mother and his father, he shall live to his wife, and they would become one flesh. That term one is the same term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 he had in Hebrew. What does it say? A man and a woman? When they get together in the union of marriage, they become one flesh, meaning you have two entities, they get together and they become one. And that’s the analogy with the Godhead. You have got the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three distinct person. They’re all united in one. They all act together in accordance with one another in perfect unity. And I could cite also Ezra 31. Let’s read it quickly. Ezra 31. You have the same concept of yihad. This is what you say and when the seven months was come and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered together as one man to Jerusalem. That same one term is called yihad. So you have many people gather together as one unity, but you have a plurality of person. But they all came together as one. And as opposed to, for example, another term for absolute unity compared to composite unity, the Godhead is a composite unity. But sometime in the Bible you will also have reference to absolute unity. Let’s take an example in Genesis genesis 22. In Genesis 22 when Abraham was sacrificing his son Isaac in verse 16 and said, by myself have I said the Lord? For because I have done this and has not, we have thy son, thy only son. The term only there, as opposed to he had is an absolute unity because he’s speaking about one person.

Yeah, that’s interesting, because even in verse twelve he mentioned the term only son, only son. And we know that Abraham did not have one son. That’s right. But he’s talking about the son that is heir to all the promises that God has made to Abraham, which is Isaac, not ishmael. The Muslims are claiming it’s Ishmael, but that’s another debate. But the Bible is so clear that it is Isaac. And obviously you have the Jew through Jacob, all the Jews that are descended to Jacob, and they have the inheritance of God.

Now, if we go to the New Testament, just a couple of verses, the most obvious one is John chapter one, where the Bible clearly tell us in the beginning, exactly like Genesis one. One meaning in the beginning of time was the Word, meaning he was there before anything began. Okay? And the word was with God. So which means there are two distinct entity here, persons, because God and the Word, they were there before the beginning, before everything was created, unlike what the Jehovah witness are claiming. And the word was God. Now the Java witness changed it to say was a God with a single G, which is Raspberry because the Word of God is so clear. And one question you can ask the Java witness in this verse here. If Jesus Christ was created by God the Father before he turned around and created the universe, because that’s what they claim when they site collision, for example, 1:15,16, etc. All the questions we’re asking them where was Jesus when God the Father created Him? Because for a creative being to exist, he has to exist in a space and a time, okay? If Jesus Christ was created by God the Father, he needs to reside somewhere. Because he’s a creative being, he can be infinite. He’s a finite being somehow. So he’s a limited in time and space. And the question we’re asking them before the universe and before time was created, where was he? Because he is the One who created everything in the universe according to Jehovah witness, right? So where was he residing? No answer to that because they misinterpreted this verse and that’s why they got into trouble.

And another verse that we can cite is in the New Testament, Philippian. Philippians, chapter two. And we can start reading from verse five here. The apostle Paul is saying, let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. He’s exhorting the Christian to have the mind of Christ, and he’s defining who Christ is, who being in the form of God sorted, not robbery to be equal with God. So clear statement that he is equal to God the Father, okay? And God the Holy Spirit. But guess what happened now? But he made himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant who became a man. So the God of this universe became a man. Okay? Nothing prevented him from doing that. And that’s what the Bible is teaching us. And we stick with what the Bible is telling us. He took upon Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of man. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to God the Father. Because there is a hierarchy in the Godhead. God the Father sent God the Son. And then God the Son is sending the Holy Spirit. It’s all clear in the Bible. He said he became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, wherefore God also has highly exacted Him and given Him a name which is above every name. So if Jesus Christ’s name is above every name, that means he’s Almighty God, his name is above every name. And he said in a sense that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth, okay? So only God has this capability. And the Bible in the New Testament also is telling us if we take, let’s say corruption, which the Jehovah witness, for example, like to cite if we go to verse 15 and 16. First of all, verse 14 and say in whom talking about Jesus Christ. Because verse 13 says his dear Son in whom we have redemption through his blood because he poured out his blood for the forgiveness of sin, who is the image of the invisible God. Okay. He’s the image meaning the exact representation of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, for by Him were all things created. Here you say all things, okay? If Jesus Christ was a creative being, then there is a problem in verse 16 because he said all things were created by Him, so he must have created Himself. Exactly. Then he would have created himself. Okay. And so clear here and before Him all things and by Him all things consist, okay? He’s the head of the body, etc.

Let’s take another verse, the Book of Hebrew, chapter one. Let’s see what the Bible say here. God, who at sundry time and indivist manners in time past unto the fathers, by the prophet, has in this last day spoken unto us by His Son. And who is his son? Jesus Christ, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. So Jesus Christ is the one who created this universe. And then look how he’s defining Him, who being the brightness of his glory. No angel can match this description. He has the glory of God. Who can have that? Only a man with an equal nature. And then look at what you say next and the express image of his person, the exact image we saw in Colossian here again, it’s saying the express image of his person, of God the Father and upholding all things. Now, a creative being cannot uphold all things because he would need to uphold Himself, right? And you can’t do that because you’re a creative being. By the word of his power, when he has Himself purged our sin. Only God can purge our sin. No other created being can purge our sin. So clear expression of his divine nature as Almighty God, he sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high. When the term he also says sitting down at the right hand, that means he’s at equality with God the Father, okay? When you’re sitting at the right hand side, that means you are sharing equal power, okay? And that’s what it says here. A clear definition of Jesus Christ as God. And I can go on and on and on.

Yeah, let’s not miss verse eight, though, because verse eight make it even crystal again he says, exactly. But unto the son he said, yes, thy throne. Oh God, it’s forever and ever. Yes, acceptor of righteousness is accepted of thy kingdom. Yes. Diatrono. God. So God the Father is calling God the Son God. And this is the term Courios, which is used in the New Testament. And in this case, in this context and in most of the case in the New Testament, it’s referring to Almighty God. Referring to Almighty God.

So when I was a teenager, I remember I had Jehovah Witnesses coming to my home and they would come pretty much every Saturday for a couple of weeks until I started doing computer classes. And I wasn’t home on Saturdays anymore, so they decided not to come. And one of the explanation they gave to me when you say that Christ is the express image of the Father in Ruth and in Colossians, chapter one, they ask me, has anyone ever said, hey, you look like your father or you are spitting image of your daddy or whatever the case may be? And they say, that’s the meaning. When he says that. How would you counter that? Well, you go back to Colonial 115, he said, who is the image of the invisible God? Nowhere does it say for us as creative being, we are created in the image of God, but we are not the image of the image. He’s saying the he doesn’t say an image, right? He’s saying the image of God, of the invisible God one thing. And in Hebrew it says the express of if you want the exact representation, the exact so a created being cannot be an exact representation of God. Otherwise something is not clear in that definition. When you say it’s the exact representation, that’s what it means. It means exact representation. And Jesus Christ in the Gospel, in John 14, I think, when he said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, right? Because Philip was asking him, can you show us the Father? He said, if you see me, you have seen the Father. What is he claiming? He’s claiming he is God himself. Because if he was a creative being, he would not dare to say that, otherwise he would be an imposter. But he said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, because I’m the exact representation of the Father.

And also, I think a lot of times we argue whether or not Jesus Christ is God and stuff like that. And we missed the fact that the Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying when he says in John that’s right before Abraham was what I am. But for the bear fact, they took up stones to stone him. Exactly. They knew exactly what he was saying. Absolutely. And you know, the reason why Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross because he was claiming to be God in the Gospel of John, john 19 specifically talk about it. The reason why he was sent to trial and crucified, because the Jew understood he claimed to be Almighty God, and for them it was blasphemy.

Yeah. So let me ask you this, Leopold, because I’ve heard, quote unquote, scholars argue on John, chapter one, and many of them would say the word dear does not translate or mean God. And of course, I’m no Hebrew or Greek scholar. You might be one because you’re a smart. I am not. Let me ask you, how would you dig into John One and explain to someone that the word actually means God? Right? So the argument and some of these kind of arguments are brought out by this Java witness. For example, they would say in John one, one in the beginning was the Word, and the word was in the Greek it says the God. Okay, okay. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with the God. Right? That’s what it says. In the Greek there is this prefix, prefix Z God, right? But then the last part we say, and the word was God. The Greek doesn’t use in that one, and they use that to say that, you see, because it says Z got here in part before that means that is talking about Almighty God. The word was with Almighty God, right? But then when you say the word was God, it can be Almighty God as well, because the Z is missing there. But you see, that’s a false argument. Why? Because if you take the term God without desert is used in many parts of the New Testament. If you take, for example, Matthew five I want to just read it quickly. Matthew five nine. This is what we have here. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. Now, you don’t see here as the God, but then the Jehovah witness, when they read this, oh, this is talking about Almighty God. Right. You see the kind of reasoning and let’s take another example and consistent. Yes. If you take Matthew six continue here, Matthew 6:24, it says the same thing here. No one can serve two masters, for either he will get one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God. And mahmon, it doesn’t say God in the Greek. It says just God. So here they will clearly say it’s talking about Almighty God. But it’s the same thing when you take John one one, Romans one seven, John one six, John 112, etc. All speak about God, and Jesus Christ is God. It’s so clear. There’s no ambiguity in that. All right, let’s shift gear a little bit, because I think we have proven through scripture that Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The triumphant God.

Is this doctrine a matter of salvation? Is it a salvation issue? Can you truly be saved but believe that Jesus Christ is not God? Is this a salvific issue? Absolutely, I would say. You see, it’s like saying if you cannot recognize the identity and the nature of God, how can you have a relationship with Him? Because the soul salvation revolves around having that relationship with God, because you cannot have a relationship with somebody you don’t know, right? So it’s crucial who God is, his identity. If you miss that, then you miss the whole point. Okay? That’s one thing. Because it’s like talking to a stranger. You can’t have a relationship with a stranger, somebody you don’t know, like somebody you just meet for the first time he’s a stranger. Unless you develop some rapport relationship, you cannot know that person. And to have that relationship, you need to know who that person is. That’s so crucial. And the same thing, if you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, I don’t see how you can be saved. Romans ten nine clearly said let me read it again, which is a clear verse about salvation. It said, if you shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus. Okay, so confess the Lord Jesus. Lord here is curious and according to the New Testament, curios means Almighty God in this case and shall believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. So it’s intrinsically connected to salvation, knowing the Lord Jesus, if you don’t know Him, there’s no way you can claim. Because if you believe he’s a creative being, when the Bible clearly teach that he created everything, he was there from the beginning. Revelation again 22 talk about it. Let’s read it. Actually, it says I am the Alpha and the Omega clearly identify the person speaking as Jesus Christ. So he said here in Revelation 22, verse 13, he says, I am the person speaking. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. And then he continued in verse 16, he said, I Jesus. So first of all, in the Old Testament, God the Father is defined, if you want, as the Alpha and the Omega. And Jesus Christ in the New Testament here is claiming that title to say that he was there from the beginning, meaning before the beginning beginning he was there. Okay? And verse 16 says, i, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offsprings of David. So he’s showing his humanity. So he’s Almighty God, but he’s also a human being. And that’s so clear. And if you miss that, then you have misidentify the God of this universe. And that’s crucial.

So you’re saying in order for someone to be saved, they must believe that Jesus is God and must accept the trinity as foundational doctrine? Yes. Could there be someone that maybe does not understand that maybe was not disciple, maybe was not taught properly and be saved? Now that’s a tricky question. But if that person is seeking to know the true God, that God is going to reveal himself to that person through the pages of Scripture. Now let’s say somebody who never read the Bible have never accessed the revelation of God because this is a special revelation to describe the nature of God. Because God has given first of all creation as general revelation if you want. So you may never have read one page of scripture but still be accountable to God because God has shown you his creation. Because the Bible says they haven’t declared the glory of God, right? So even if you have never been exposed to that you are accountable to God to know who the true God is. Because not only the Renault revelation is there to show you there is creation, there is a design, there was an origin. But he has also put in your conscience. Romans two clearly tells you that there is a God. Your conscience speak to that. So nobody is with any excuse. And I would say so it’s possible that you may not know the Trinity, you may not know Jesus Christ is God. But somehow if you’re seeking to know the true God, the One who created the universe, the one who allowed you to be alive, who created you indirectly, I would say he will find a way to reveal Himself to you and he’s the ultimate judge. And if somebody is seriously seeking God, he will reveal Himself to Him.

Yeah, definitely. I have a friend who recount the story of him going out and witnessing and he knocked on a young man’s door and he asked a young man if he was savior. Young man said yes and he asked young man is Jesus Christ God? And the young man said no. Once he explained to him from scripture that Jesus Christ is God. The young man said to him you know what? I’ve always believed that. But basically he was never really taught that. But he always believed Jesus was maybe in his spirit knew that Jesus Christ was God but he couldn’t really explain it or express it because he wasn’t taught that way. That’s right. So I totally agree with you. And also I do believe that it has to be a matter of salvation because if Jesus Christ is not God, therefore he can’t save you. No. And if he’s not God, then he must have sin. Then he’d be human. And if he’s fully human we know, at least I know myself, that we fail. It has to be a matter of salvation. Yes. Because the Bible say all have sin and have fallen short of the glory of God. So no human being is exempt from sin apart from Jesus Christ because he’s fully God. He’s holy God and he never sinned. He was tempted, but never sinned. Like Hebrew. Clearly teach.

Brother Leopold, tie it all together and share the Gospel with our audience and with us. If I could just say as a caveat, christians need the Gospel every bit as much as a lost person does. It’s always good for us to be reminded of the goodness of God, who he is, what he’s done for us in salvation. Share the Gospel with us and with our listeners, with a specific focus on this concept of the Trinity. And we discuss why it’s important. But can you just kind of bring it all together and share the Gospel with that in mind?

Yes. The triumph God is defined by love Himself because he loves so much us, human being, every single one of us, no matter what your religious background words, he loves because he can’t do otherwise. That’s who he is by essence. And he says in the Gospel of John, chapter one, verse one in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And that same Word came into this world. He became a man. Now, he was rejected by his own people. But he said, whoever comes to me, I will not ask you. I will receive you as my child. And Philippian Two also talks about it that Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, did not find it robbery to be equal with God being God. He humbled himself by coming down to Earth. Now imagine the God of this universe who has everything under control omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Okay? Imagine how Heaven is compared to this earth. It’s like a human being turning from human being, let’s say to a dog. And that’s the type of analogy I can do. And that’s even not as descriptive of what he did for us. He humbled himself by becoming a human being. And he was born with humble beginning. He was born in a manger, the Creator of this universe. Can you imagine that’s? How much he loved us. And he lived a selfless life. He fulfilled the law. He did everything that the Father had called Him to do faithfully. And he went to the cross to die for our sin because we have disobeyed God. We have fallen short of God’s glory. And the Bible says the penalty for falling short of God’s glory is death. That’s what happened to Eve when they sinned first in the garden. God said, the day you eat of that food, you disobey me, you’re going to die. And that’s what happened to every human being. Nobody escaped death because we have sin. But the solution now to that problem, jesus Christ Himself came as a human being. He died on the cross, on our place. We were supposed to die and be separated from God for eternity. But he took that place for us. Why? Because he loved us. He loved every single one. For those who are listening, if you’re not a Christian, he loves you and he wants you to know Him, to have a relationship with Him. That’s why he came to die. For your sin. For my sin, so we can have everlasting life. And that’s the God of this universe, his love. And that’s what he wants to every single one of us, to have eternal life and not be separated from Him. But he gave us a free will. He’s not going to force his love upon us. He asked us to choose. He gave us a free will. Would you come to me? But he’s pleading with every single human being. And if you’re hearing this today, jesus Christ said he’s the only way. You have so many other religions proposing different ways or different means, multiple ways, they will tell you so long as you get to the destination, it doesn’t matter which path you take. But Jesus Christ tells us he’s the way because why? He’s the truth. And apart from Him, you are lost. So we invite anybody who does not know Jesus Christ to come to Him, to get to know Him and to put his trust in Him, in what he did for Him at the Cross, by dying for their sins so they can have eternal life.

Amen. I can listen to you expound on the Bible all day. You’re amazing teacher. I love listening to your brother. Thank you for joining us on the Removing various podcasts. And if you want more of Leopold’s teaching, the link to his book is going to be in the show notes and also a link to his YouTube ministry is going to be in the Show notes. Thank you very much, brother. Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thank you.

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